Talk:Illyria

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ancient Illyria is redirected to "Illyria". We have to change the links in the orientation tables of the History of Albania series. In other cases, the change is not strictky necessary. ~~

Done. I also fixed some of the double redirects. Dori 23:13, Nov 12, 2003 (UTC)

Contents 1 Nonsense? 2 i lirë 3 ...ancient civilization related to present-day Albania. 4 Not Illyrians 5 Veneti 6 Check your source 7 Illyrian Tribes 8 NW Greece 9 Hyllus 10 Poor information! 11 Introduction contradicts itself 12 New Map

[edit] Nonsense?

Moved this from article. Seems patent nonsense, but if it isn't, rewrite and put back in. Wyllium 23:41, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

It isn't nonsense, but it's a copyvio, so I'm going to delete it from here. RickK 23:42, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

It was misplaced anyway, that's about Illyria (television). --Shallot

Fwiw, I've just moved Illyria (television) to Illyria (Angel) — OwenBlacker 23:28, Jun 27, 2004 (UTC)

to Illyria (Buffyverse) -- Paxomen 13:31, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] i lirë

The Albanian transliteration i lirë translates to a free person.

Albanian "i lirë" has nothing to with the Illyrians.

"Lirë" is a term borrowed by the ancestors of the Albanians from Latin "liber"="free". ("b" between the vowels disappears on Latin words borrowed in Albanian, just like in the word "horse" lat. cabalus -> alb. kalë.)

The name of Illyria was used long before the Romans came in the Balkans. Bogdan | Talk 17:41, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] ...ancient civilization related to present-day Albania.

This article is about the ancient civilization related to present-day Albania.

I contest that. It seems that Illyrians have nothing to do with Albania, except the teritory.

There is no proof there is any connection. There's a text written in Messapic (Messapians were an Illyrian tribe) that says:

klohi zis thotoria marta pido vastei basta veinan aran in daranthoa vasti staboos xohedonas daxtassi vaanetos inthi trigonoxo a staboos xohetthihi dazimaihi beiliihi inthi rexxorixoa kazareihi xohetthihi toeihithi dazohonnihi inthi vastima daxtas kratheheihi inthi ardannoa poxxonnihi a imarnaihi [1]

It has no resemblence whatsover with today's Albanian. We should look for the ancestors of Albanians in Dacia, Moesia or Pannonia. Bogdan | Talk 17:53, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

(ITYM Dalmatia, not Dacia? Anyway...)

Ancient Dalmatians were Illyrians. Anyway, see this table that shows how phonetical features diverged from the proto-indo-european in various languages. Albanian is closest to Dacian.

I think it'd be fair to rephrase the intro sentence to not be so definite, but it does seem quite likely that the Albanians have a few common genes with the Illyres just like the neighbouring Slavic peoples do. --Joy [shallot] 11:03, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Of course. But it's about the language/culture than about the genes. For example, in the 8th century, a large part of today's Romania was assimilated by Slavs, only to be re-assimilated by the Romanians before the 11th century. Before Nationalism, assimilation was as easy as learning a foreign language. :) Bogdan | Talk 12:49, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

That text proves nothing. The tribe could have used a different dialect or language.

It is believed that Messapian is an Illyrian dialect because of 1) the funeral graves look very similar to the Illyrian ones 2) many proper names are also common to those in Illyria

Also, although Albanian is thought to have derived from Ilyrian, I seriously doubt you can find anyone who will say that knowing Albanian means knowing Illyrian.

It is "thought" ? Since quite a number of linguists believe that Illyrian and Albanians are not related, I think we should use the NPOV policy.

In most historical texts it's pretty well accepted that Albanians are descendent of Illyrians. That doesn't mean it's true, but I wouldn't accept a minority opinion, or original research as more authoritative. Dori | Talk 15:56, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)

This is not an original research, but yes, it may be a minority opinion, especially among Albanian historians/linguists, but NPOV tells us to says to say the arguments of both parties and let the reader decide. That's why I created the Origin of Albanians page. Bogdan | Talk 16:55, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sure we do tell all sides, but we also emphasize the majority opinion, and likewise, we don't bother to mention any crackpot theories. Are there even two parties like you say? It's not just Albanians vs the rest of the world, you can find plenty of non-Albanian historians (I would say the majority with the exception of most Serb historians) who say it's very likely that the Albanians descended from the Illyrians. Dori | Talk 17:14, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)

There are also some Romanian linguists that use this theory to explain the common Romanian-Albanian words. I am not sure what would be the purpose of this claim of the Serb historians, since if the Albanians were not formed in Albania, most likely forming place would be in Eastern Serbia. :-) Bogdan | Talk 17:34, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It is likely possible that Albanians have Illyrian blood (but no more so than Serbs, Bosnians, or Croats), however it is entirely impossible that the Albanian language derives from Illyrian due to the fact that modern Albanian is a satem language and Illyrian was a centum/kentum language. It is impossible for a satem language to transform into a centum one or vice versa (unless there is a change in its subtrate, which is not the case with Albanian). I agree that there are some historians who believe that Albanian is the descendant of Illyrian, but none of these historians explain how a centum language became a satem one. This has been explained in more depth by some Albanian historians who do not agree with the Illyrian origin of Albanians theory such as Dr. Kaplan Resuli, Dr. Adrian Vebiu, Dr. Fatos Ljubonja.

It is likely possible that the Albanian language deriveds from the Illyrian language due to the fact that little is unknown about the Illyrian language and they only are suggestion to if Illyrian is centum or kentum. The serbian cannot be a Illyrian language cause it dosent orginates from the Illyrian but from the slavic.

A long straight sword with single or double edge introduced for close combat use in the Roman army. The Albanian word shpata means sword.

A a short curved knife used by the Illyrians as described by the Roman poet Ennius. The Albanian word thika means knife.

"Ardia" derived from the Albanian "ardhja" future.

"Taulant" derived from the Albanian "dallendyshe" swallow.

"Enchela" derived from the Albanian "e ngjala" eel-man.

"Dardan" derived from the Albanian "dardhen" pear.

"Thesprot" derived from the Albanian 'thes pro" bear sack.

"Dalmat" derived from the Albanian "delmet" sheeps. The ancient author Strabon mention that their was alot of sheeps in Dalmatia.

"Desaret" derived from the Albanian "deshiret" the desires.

"Histri" derived from the Albanian "uhstri" warriors.

"Epiri" derived from the Albanian "e piré" intoxicated, drunk.

"Mollosi" derived from the Albanian "molisje", hardworkers.

"Kalabri" derived from the Albanian "kullumbri" strawbeery.

"Gent" derived from the Albanian "gdhend", ingraved.

"Agron" derived from the Albanian "agon" come about, happen, occur.

User:Albanau

I don't know enough Albanian to say more, but it looks that at least two Albanian words are borrowings, and therefore not of Illyrian origin: shpata, from Italian spada and deshiret, from Latin desiderare. Bogdan | Talk 20:47, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Also, thika is most likely related to the Thracian curved knife called sica (see the knife in the hand of the Thracian gladiator) Bogdan | Talk 20:52, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"Desaret meant 'the desires'..."---'The Desires' is a good name for a 1960's Motown group, but that's about it. Alexander 007 14:16, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

MOST OF THE ABOVE WORDS HAVE GREEK OR ROMAN ETYMOLOGY,CHECK A LEXICON THESE ARE THE NAMES THAT GREEKS AND ROMANS GAVE US.

The Greek name Epirus signifies "mainland" or "continent", to distinguish it from the Ionian islands off the Epirote coast. It was originally applied to the whole coast south to the Gulf of Patras. The name is thought to go back to Proto-Greek āper-jos, from an Indo-European root apero- meaning 'coast'.

I expanded the list of tribes and I think its so long it should become its own page. Anyone against this idea? freestylefrappe 07:27, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)

Well, will we ever say much more about them than merely list them? If it's going to remain this way, it might as well stay... --Joy [shallot] 12:41, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Not Illyrians

I removed a number of tribes that were not Illyrian tribes: Maedi were Thracian; Triballi were Thracian; Scordisci were too mixed up with Celtic and Thracian to be considered Illyrian; Paeonians were Paeonians, a distinct ethnicity; Liburni are by most scholars not considered to be real Illyrians; and so on. I'll check the rest later. Alexander 007 10:45, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The List should be a separate page---and be aware that every single tribe listed will be double-checked. Alexander 007 10:49, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Listing the Celtic Boii as an "Illyrian" tribe was a gross display of ignorance or carelessness or both on the part of the lister or his/her source. Alexander 007 11:38, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Veneti

I see that someone had listed the Veneti as an Illyrian tribe. Actually, the ancient Venetic language and people are considered distinct from Illyrians (though very probably the languages were related, even closely related, though the close relation of Venetic to Illyrian is very much disputed by scientists). Read this:Venetic language. Read that Venetic sentence. You can see that Venetic was so close to Latin (Italic) that some classify Venetic as an Italic language. If you want to say that the Veneti are the same as Illyri, then you are saying this: the Illyrian language has nothing at all to do with Albanian, and the Illyrian language was in fact close to Latin. You cannot have it both ways. Alexander 007 04:45, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Check your source

User:Freestylefrappe lifted that erroneous list of Illyrian tribes from this website: [2]. The homepage is [3]. This is a pseudo-historic website (a crank site) which is known to be full of untrustworthy information. Next time, instead of just assuming that all those listed are correctly listed, try checking the homepage and doing some extra research. Alexander 007 05:39, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Illyrian Tribes

I really wish people would stop posting the ridiculous tribe list from such a propagandic source. Confirmied Illyrian tribes are the following from this source ;

(latinized)

Encheleus, Autarieus, Dardanus, Maedus, Taulas, Perrhaebus, Taulantii, Perrhaebi, Enchelei,Autariatae, Dardanians, Partheni, Dassaretii, Darsi, Autarieus, Pannonius, Scordiscus, Triballus

These were presented by Appian Tpilkati 7 July 2005 05:04 (UTC)

Thanks Tpilkati, that is much better than a propaganda site. But even Appian's list is rightly disputed: the Triballians and Maedi are more often acknowledged to have been Thracian. Alexander 007 7 July 2005 05:07 (UTC)

Tribal names should be given in the plural, either in Latin (e.g. Taulantii, Perrhaebi, Enchelei, Autariatae, Partheni, Dassaretii, Darsi) or in Anglicized forms (e.g. Dardanians), but with some consistency. They are never given in the singular, so I find it truly odd that most names in Tpilkati's list are given in the masc. sing. form, e.g. Encheleus [same as Enchelei], Autarieus [repeated twice, and the same as Autariatae], Dardanus [same as Dardanians], Maedus, Taulas [same as Taulantii], Perrhaebus [same as Perrhaebi], Pannonius, Scordiscus, Triballus. Perhaps those masc. sing. names refer to the mythological eponymous ancestors of each tribe (like Romulus for the Romans). When this list was first started, it was a list of ancient tribal names, given in their modern Albanian forms. Over time, different contributors have been adding the original classical names for those tribes, but many modern Albanian forms still remain, e.g. Dalmat, Mesap, Japyg, Labeat, Taulant, etc. They should be taken out, because they are totally irrelevant and as derivative as the English ones. Since this is the English Wikipedia and not the Abanian Wikipedia, one expects to find either the English forms or, as is customary, the original classical forms, given in Latin. Perhaps Decius will find the time to clean this up. Pasquale 00:16, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NW Greece

If we call the Thesprotians and Mollosians "Illyrian tribes", then we may have to call the Macedonians an "Illyrian tribe". Strabo in his Geography (Book 7.2) writes:

"Among the Thesprotians and Mollosians old women are called Peliai and old men Pelioi, as is also the case among the Macedonians."

---Peliai and Pelioi meant "Pigeons" in ancient Greek, and comes from pelos, 'dark' (PIE *pel-,'pale, gray, dark'). Other similarities are known between the ancient Macedonians and the tribes of ancient Northwestern Greece. It seems to me that the Thesprotians and Mollosoi and the Macedonians were perhaps kin (speaking similar languages or dialects?), perhaps forming a semi-Hellenic branch (or on the other hand, they were just "backward" Hellenes). Unless very strong evidence exists that the Thesprotians and Mollosoi were Illyrian tribes, we should remove them from the list. I removed them from the list for now. Alexander 007 18:47, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

• Peliai and Pelioi for old women and men seems to be more related with the Albanian word plak/plakë (pl. pleq) which means old man/old woman. It is very ridiculous to call an old man or woman pigeon, even if you want to respect or offend them. --Getoar 20:06, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Read this:[http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7Fragments*.html . The Pigeons idea is from Strabo himself, and he was not far off. The ancient Greeks named their pigeons after their dark/pale grayish color, and the Greek and Macedonian and Mollosian/Thesprotian words come from PIE *pel-, "pale, gray, dark". That Albanian word comes from the same root (PIE *pel-) yes, but any linguist will tell you that the ancient Greek form is closest to the Macedonian, not the Albanian. The Albanian form has a very close correspondance in Lithuanian however: pilkas means "gray" or "old" in Lithuanian (don't remember exactly which one). The Lithuanian word is also from *pel-. The Greek and Macedonian forms have pretty much the same form, but altered meaning or altered application. ---Alexander 007 02:15, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Plutarch has some interesting passages on the Thesprotians and Mollosians in his biography of Pyrrhus. He says that in the language (Dryden translation uses this term) of the country of Epirus, Achilles was known as Aspetos. Plutarch also states that the Mollosian/Thesprotian king Tharrhypas (observe the -rrh- element also found in Macedonian) was "the first" Mollosian/Thesprotian king "who, by introducing Greek manners and learning, and humane laws into his cities, left any fame for himself." So the same Greek-or-non-Greek ambiguity circles around Mollosians and Thesprotians, as around the Macedonians. Alexander 007 04:02, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hyllus

So who is this magnificent, antediluvian Illyrian king Hyllus, and what classical sources mention him? He's mentioned all over the net (mostly in Wikipedia mirror sites and crank sites), but it is quite mysterious that nowhere is a classical reference given for him. Perseus mentions a number of figures named Hyllus (including Hyllus), but none match the description. ---Alexander 007 05:35, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Poor information!

Wikipedia claims that the second Illyrian king we know is Bardyllis, while Albanian Nation History tells how Bardyllis, a digger, won enough advocacy in order to organize a rebellion against Sirra (I wrote it as Albanians do in their books). It is said that Sirra became a king at the end of the fifth century BC, while the revolt took the place in the fourth century BC.

On the other hand Wikipedia tries to make differences between Illyrian tribes, and this is done in purpose to relate modern Albanian state (1/3 of the territory of Ethnic Albania) with the territory inhabited by ‘proper’ Illyrians.

If someone says that ‘illyrian’ – ‘ilir’ (Alb.) doesn’t mean ‘i lirë’ (Albanian free), because it is Latin, I would like to add that the word ‘libero’ may have been used before. Illyrian was an Indo-European language and it is natural to have common or at least similar words with other languages of the family. Një = uno = one = une = eins... or maybe this word, one of the simplest was Latin and then diffused into other languages.

List of Illyrian Tribes by Aleksandar Stipcevic (‘Glli Illiri’, eng. The Illyrians) (only the tribes marked on the map):

Amantini

Andizetes

Ardiei

Atintani

Autariates

Breuci

Bylliones

Chaones

Colapiani

Dalmates

Daorsei

Dardani

Dassaretae

Daunii

Desitiates

Encheleae

Histri

Japodes

Japyges

Jasi

Labeates

Latobici

Liburni

Messapii

Mezei

Molossi

Paeones

Penestae

Parthini

Peucetii

Picentes

Pirustae

Plerei

Scordisci

Serretes

Taulantii

Thesproti

Varciani

Other tribes:

Agrianes

Albanoi * The Yugoslavian censure removed this tribe from the map of A. Stipcevic

Lucanians

Pannoni

Tribali

etc.

Getoar 19:55, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Anyway, I read his work and I think Aleksandar Stipcevic is one the greatest historians to have contributed in Illyrians case. He didn't do it himself but he is based on data provided from ancient books and archeological sources.--Getoar 08:28, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction contradicts itself

The delineation of ancient Illyria can pose a problem to historians, since before the Roman conquest the Illyrians were not unified into an Illyrian kingdom, and Illyria's borders before Rome are not always clear. For example, the Dalmatae, though classed as an Illyrian tribe by language, were only subject to the kingdom of Illyria for a short time and soon defected during the reign of King Gentius.

Was there or was there NOT a king of Illyria?

[edit] New Map

I think that the map on this article is of a very low quality as compared to most other maps on Wikipedia now. I request that someone creates a more detailed and accurate map. I'd do it, but the only image program I know how to use is Microsoft Paint. Bifgis 20:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The map is wrong, indeed. Illyria extended from what is now Croatia/Bosnia down to the borders of ancient Epirus. Some sysop please check that. 24.5.75.64 19:42, 28 March 2007 (UTC)