Talk:Igor Stravinsky

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[edit] Biography out of sequence

Small issue: the fourth to last paragraph in the biography jumps back in time, from the 1920s to a trip to Paris in 1911. Also, that trip is said to be in 1910 in the second paragraph.

I would say this is a large issue, the biography is totally out of sequence and is practically incomprehensible.--Dmz5 07:55, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I will make an attempt to address the issue; there is a fair amount of detail in the four books of conversations with Robert Craft which I have. Also, there is stuff in the biography section which doesn't belong there - comment on evolution of musical style during his work for the Ballet Russe for instance. --Stephen Burnett 13:20, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Resting place

Okay, exactly where is he buried?

In the ground. -- Tarquin 09:40 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC) (sorry... couldn't resist ;-)

Hi DW and Tarquin, the article is correct: San Michele. I think I wrote or amended that bit, can't remember now. I've seen the grave, in fact I went specially to say hello and thanks for all the great tunes. If I can find and scan a piccy I might add it to the article. Rather sweetly, Diaghelev is (as far as I recall) practically next door. Someone had left him a pair of little ballet shoes when I was there. btw Tarquin's daft remark is not as daft as it might seem because on San Michele (a) lots of people are not buried in the ground so much as in sort of left luggage lockers half way up a wall, (seems weird to me but obivously a cultural thing you can get used to, expecially if you are dead at the time) and (b) people who have been buried donot necessarily stay buried all that long unless they are famous or have paid out a load of money or both - "ordinary" burials are evicted after some years so that the grave can be reused (see previous "seems weird to me" parentheses all over again). As you can imagine, being an island, it's not like there's a lot of spare space ... :) Nevilley 19:13 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)

Aha! I see what you mean - at the top of the article he's in San Michele, at the bottom in Tikhvin. He gets around a bit!

I will try to check but I know I saw something at SM that said it was his grave. I wonder if it is one of the tastless cases where different bits are in different places - heart or head or something?? Google shows very few for him in St Petersburg but then that is not the sole authority ... I will have a try and report back! Nevilley 19:41 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)

Right, I am going to stick my neck out and say that I think the one in St Petersburg is his Dad, Fyodor Ignatyevich. On my modest research this looks most likely. See for example this page at Findagrave. Unfortunately the user who made the change was not logged in (64.x.x.x) so it's not easy to check back with them. So I am going to change it and see if anyone minds. Ido think it's a little unfortunate that he was left with two places of burial and no explanation but, ho hum ... :) Nevilley 23:31 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)

While translating this article for the German Wikipedia I noticed that it is very similar to http://www.basicmusic.net/MusicianDisplay.php/musn/51/. It would be nice if the original author(s) could add a statement here that the webpage's text was used with permission and does not infringe copyright (Wikipedia:Copyrights) (or did www.basicmusic.net copy the article from Wikipedia?). --129.13.64.204 11:36 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yes, they copied it from us (I checked the gradual history). They probably don't have to give the source (that, in this case, being Wikipedia), but not sure why people don't or wouldn't give citation. It's just one line, not even a sentence. --Menchi 11:45 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

[edit] More music

I read the entry and I am a bit embarassed: too much about the man too little about his music. The anecdotal bits are fine, and amusing, but he is noted for his music not his affairs or copyright difficulties. Anyone like to tray a hand at adding some sort of evaluation of the music? TadPiotr

Do something if you're embarrassed. Inaction is gonna keep you embarrassed forever. :-) --Menchi 21:49 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I think that the list of works could do with being wikified, where we have articles on a particular work. We shouldn't assume that everyone looking at the list of works has already read through the article and noticed which works were linked there ;) Any objections? Markalexander100 11:38, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

  • Go for it. Marlowe 17:00, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Source?

In the article there is this claim:

[As he himself said, with these premieres his intention was "[to send] them all to hell".]

Anyone know the source for this? I have never seen, or heard of, this in years of studying Stravinsky ... but then, of course, I haven't read absolutely everything. So this quote surprised me a little, and I should be really glad to know where it comes from.

TIA,

~Karl

I remember reading something like that, yep, but can't remember where... --Deadworm222 23:53, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)


I can't find a source for this other than wikipedia and it's mirror sites.
Other quotes by Stravinsky on the night appear to contradict this motive:
"I left the hall in rage," Stravinsky said of the crowd's reaction. "The music was so familiar to me; I loved it, and I could not understand why people who had not yet heard it wanted to protest in advance."
(cited in "The Enjoyment of Music (Ninth edition)", Norton, in addition to countless online sources). I don't think his intention was to incite a riot or rejection of the work. Moltovivace 00:12, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Incidently, the Guardian magazine, G2, quoted this in February 2006. Doubt they would make it up. But it could be lazy journalists using poor research. Who knows with journalists...

[edit] oiseau de feu/help

anyone can help me understanding this.....

1910, going to Paris to attend the premiere of his ballet L'oiseau de feu (The Firebird). During his stay in the city, he composed three major works for the Ballets Russes—L'oiseau de feu, Petrushka (1911),

so, or he went to attend the premiere of that ballet, or he wrote it during his stay...

thanks))), good night --joana 22:50, 2 May 2005 (UTC)


and, moreover, l'oiseau de feu is among his works of the first russian period, so, when did he write it?????

--joana 23:24, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Fixed. He completed The Firebird in 1910, then went to Paris and wrote the others.[1] Mark1 14:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] pulcinella

Just a quick remark. Stravinsky borrowed for his pulcinella ballet musical motives from Pergolesi, as the article tells. However, it is now know from some time the music he was borrowing from was not Pergolesi's but from a dutch nobleman who wanted to remain anonymous: Baron Van Wassenaer. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unico_Wilhelm_van_Wassenaer

[edit] Famous Quote on Plagiarism

There's been a quote attributed to Stravinsky, something akin to: "Bad composers paraphrase, great composers steal" or SOMETHING like that. Anyone know the exact quote? If a good source can be provided, it'd make a nice addition too. Melodia Chaconne 9 July 2005 19:08 (UTC)

I've normally heard it in a version attributed to T.S. Eliot: "Good poets borrow; great poets steal", or with minor variations on that (sometimes the good poets "imitate", sometimes they're not good but "mediocre" or "bad", and so on). I don't know of a source for either. It wouldn't surprise me if there are similar quotes attributed to famous architects, dancers, flimmakers, painters... --Camembert 14:44, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I am familiar with: "Good composers plagiarize, great composers steal." Can't find a source for any variant yet. Hyacinth 07:41, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Stravinsky and Fascism

Since I don't have the time to do this myself - maybe somebody else could do some research in this field... ?! Apparently Stravinsky was quite an admirer of Mussolini and was regarded as the official composer of Fascism in 1930's Italy. I've added a rather lame sentence on this at the end of the introduction. Maybe somebody could expand on this somewhere in the article? Of course such political involvement raises questions as to the fascist character of Stravinsky's musical aesthetic - at least during a phase of his life.

While I think it's significant enough to be mentioned somewhere in the article, I strongly suggest NOT putting it at the end of the introduction, which is where you normally put the "thesis statement" or fullest overall significance of the composer. It probably belongs in chronological order in the bio, with some details to flesh it out. (Assuming it is true; I've never heard this before myself, and works like the Symphony in Three Movements are usually interpreted as a fierce attack on fascism.) Antandrus (talk) 16:42, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Actually the Grove article goes into this in some detail. Stravinsky did extravagantly praise Mussolini, calling him (late 1920s) as the "savior of Italy ... and let us hope, of Europe". The Nazis included Stravinsky's music in their Entartete Musik exhibit, and infuriated him by mistaking him for a Jew--evidently Stravinsky also was not without anti-Semitism, and it appears in his letters. Antandrus (talk) 16:55, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not surprised you hadn't heard of Stravinsky's fascist leanings - I was pretty astonished myself, having (as I suppose we all do) a rather facile understanding of fascist culture. I came upon this in connection with the American poet Ezra Pound, who (as I suppose you do know) was a staunch supporter of fascist Italy. In this sense I've been thinking of starting a 'Fascist culture' discussion with regard to the 'Fascism' article which hardly makes any reference to the cultural implications of Fascism at all. We tend to think of European 1920-30's intellectuals as hounded into exile - and yet a leading number of artists and thinkers were rather enthusiastic about right-wing tyranny: the philosophers Heidegger, Oswald Spengler and Arnold Gehlen (in fact the whole German so-called 'Conservative revolution'), the legal theorist Carl Schmitt, the German writer Ernst Jünger, the Norwegian writer Knut Hamsun, Ezra Pound - Stravinsky! - d'Annunzio, Marinetti and the Italian Futurist movement, even the German writer Thomas Mann was thinking of returning to the Third Reich from his exile in the mid-1930's because he thought that Germany might be undergoing a revolution worthy of support. As for my 'lame' sentence in the introduction: what I rather like about it is the idea of shocking readers into an alternative perspective on Stravinsky (and I suppose established avant-garde culture). But I know what you mean - do as you think fit.

-Indeed this quote is commonly attributed to Stravinsky, but incorrectly, as he never said it. It was in fact the aforementioned Elliot.

[edit] Orchestrated Riot

When studying the Rite of Spring, I remember reading somewhere that Diaghilev strategically positioned different demographics to reinforce the riotousness of the riot. If that makes sense. Can anyone corroborate that? I think it's worth including. - Leon...

According to "The Lives of the Great Composers" by Harold C. Schonberg, the exact opposite was case:

  • Hardly anybody in the audience was prepared for a score of such dissonance and ferocity, such complexity and such rhythmic oddity. Nobody connected with the production had the faintest idea that the music would produce a visceral reaction. As soon as the bassoon ended its phrase in the high register, at the very opening of the ballet, laughter broke out. Soon there were whistles and catcalls. Nobody could hear the music. Diaghilev had the electricians switch the house lights off and on, in an effort to restore order. Nijinsky, in the wings, yelled the rhythms to the dancers. ..... JackofOz 11:45, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New painting of Stravinsky, top of the page

Who is the painter? That should be added to the caption.--Wormsie 19:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] what about Tchaikovsky?

I think there should be something about his links to Tchaikovsky. From what I can make out from other sources Stravinsky was a bit obsessed with him?? but I can't find much about there links other that Stravinsky saw Tchaikovsky before he died. Anyone know any info about this please add it in.

Please sign your posts on talk pages per Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth 10:04, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed from criticism

  • "'Never shall this foul music be played in my country again.' 2001, Kim Jong Il, Dear Leader of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea."
  • "Perhaps Stravinsky's strongest critic was the 20th century writer Jacques de la Barin, who famously compared Stravisnky's "Rite of Spring" to the sound of an orchestra composed of a locomotive, diesel engine and artillery fire playing in dissonance. When Stravinsky was nominated for the Legion D'Honneur, de la Barin wrote the French prime minister and threatened to commit suicide."

I removed the above paragraphs from the criticism section because, though they are hilarious, I'm unable to verify them. Hyacinth 10:07, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

In his book Philosophy of Modern Music (1948) Theodor Adorno calls Stravinsky an acrobat, a civil servant, a tailor's dummy, hebephrenic, psychotic, infantile, fascist, and devoted to making money.

Many of those designations are addressed to his stylistic periods (infantilism) or the techniques in his music (hebephrenia), not aimed at Stravinsky directly. He even had to quote himself in the appendix of die Philosophie der neuen Musik to stress that:

"Nichts wäre falscher, als Strawinskys Musik nach der Analogie dessen zu fassen, was ein deutscher Faschist Bildnerei der Geisteskranken nannte. Wie es vielmehr ihr Anliegen ist, schizophrenische Züge durch das ästhetische Bewußtsein zu beherrschen (Nothing could be more wrong than grasping Stravinsky's music corresponding to what a german fascist called sculpturing of a psychotic. On the contrary its concern is to control the schizophrenic traits by means of the aesthetic consciousness.) [english edition (thanks to Jaunty Angle): Nothing would be more false than to interpret Stravinky's music analogously to what a German fascist once called the sculpting of the mentally ill. Rather its concern is to dominate schizophrenic traits through the aesthetic consciousness. (In so doing, it would hope to vindicate insanity as true health.)]

Continuing (appendix):

"Deutlicher konnte ich nicht sagen, daß ich nicht etwa den empirischen Strawinksy für psychotisch halte. Sondern seine Musik eignet mimetisch psychotische Verhaltensweisen sich zu, um eben damit in die archaische Schicht einzudringen, in der sie das transsubjektive Sein sich erhofft." (I couldn't have said it clearer that I do not think of the empiric Stravinsky as a psychotic, but that his music acquires psychotic behaviours to penetrate into the archaic layer where it expects to find transsubjective existence)

He even expresses his fondness for Stravinsky's early pieces later on:

"Im übrigen habe ich ja gerade die Werke Stawinskys, die jener Mimesis am kühnsten sich überlassen, wie die Histoire du Soldat, als die fruchtbarsten charakterisiert;" (Incidentally I characterized those pieces that fearlessly abandon themselves to this mimesis the most, like the Histoire du Soldat, as being the most prolific)

('Der psychotische Aspekt':)

"Er verschmäht die sentimentale Illusion des 'O wüßt ich doch den Weg zurück' und konstruiert den Standpunkt der Geiseskrankheit,..." (...constructs the point of view of a psychotic)


I hope my translations are somewhat intelligible. Someone who actually read the book should revise the segment about Adorno's critique, or delete it. I don't think my English is sufficient enough to do it (the revision) myself. I don't remember the parts about fascism or making money (I doubt the existence of the latter, although it could be based on a misinterpretation of something else), many years have passed since I read the book. If I find the time I'll re-read the book in the next week to provide you with more useful suggestions.

--Saiken 17:20, 19 March 2006 (UTC) (just created an account, same user)

[edit] Issues with the article

The article is quite well-written, my issues are exclusively technical and style points. However, I was guided to this page by a list of long-featured articles not yet featured on the Main Page, but I do not believe this one is ready. It currently has almost no (only 1) inline citation for all of that text and has very large lists of compositions that should be summarized and split-off into "List of musical works by Igor Stravinsky" or something like that. As I said, mostly technical, and I'm sure any of the original authors can fix them easily. Staxringold 11:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I intend to list this at Featured Article Review some time in the next few months. Tony 16:32, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

This article has no sources why is it a FA? It should be taken off until it has some sources. Sorry that was me I forgot to sign in.--Team6and7 23:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

I added {{Infobox musical artist}} to the article. I am unsure of some of the information, so if anyone sees anything that can be added or changed, please do so. Thanks. – Heaven's Wrath   Talk  20:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No inline citations?

How in the world was this article featured as Today's FA? It has absolutely no inline citations or other reference marks. A great article, but without some kind of footnotes, it really doesn't deserve FA status, let alone Main Page FA status. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 00:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, this is really bothering me too. --Wafulz
Ditto.QuixoticKate 16:04, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it's unusual for Today's Featured Article to have been promoted to FA so long ago: take a look at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Igor Stravinsky and you'll see it was promoted in July 2004 (although the last "support" vote came a year later!), back when inline citations were not yet expected of FAs, and back when being well-written and interesting was. —Angr 16:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Saying that someone "sucked" at something doesn't seem like appropriate language for an encyclopedia (in the paragraph about his early learning).71.111.213.41 17:01, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

That was doubtless vandalism. If it hasn't been removed already, I'll remove it now. Thanks for noticing! —Angr 17:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Yeah the fact it has no inline citations is worrying. I expect to see it at WP:FAR soon. LuciferMorgan 21:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Place of marriage to Vera

The article says that Igor married Vera in 1940 in New York. Most sources say that they were married on 1940-03-09 in Bedford, Massachusetts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 139.68.134.1 (talk • contribs) 14:57, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

If you think that's correct, you can change it and provide a verifiable source by typing [source url here]. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 02:40, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Note, you type the [source url here] right after the statement, like this.[2] It's not the best way of referencing, but it's the simplest. -- Cielomobile talk / contribs 02:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2 Contrabassoons Issue

The statement that The Rite is the first work to involve two contrabassoons is dubious. I think that that was done earlier by Berlioz, probably in the Symphonie funebre et triomphale. (It might also occur in a very small handful of works by other composers prior to Stravinsky.) BTW, The Rite also uses two bass clarinets, which was also very unusual at the time.

arcueil

[edit] Taruskin

I'm amazed to see that there is no reference anywhere to Richard Taruskin's "Stravinsky and the Russian Traditions" (1996), a 2-volume study that challanges much of the received wisdom about Stravinsky. This is an absolutely major source, highly praised by critics and the recipient of many awards, including the Kurt Weill Foundation Prize for the best book of 1996 on the musical stage. I've added this study to the "Sources," but since I'm no authority on Stravinsky, I'm reluctant to incorporate Taruskin's findings into this article; but I definitely think that someone should take on this task.

Please sign you posts on talk pages. Why add it as a source when nobody has added anything from it?--Wormsie 22:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pablo Picasso's portrait of Stravinsky

I do love that picture; we need it in better quality, since this is such a popular article! Glassonion1542 13:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External link to works by/about Stravinsky on WorldCat?

I propose adding an external link to Works/by about 'Stravinsky, Igor 1882-1971' at WorldCat Identities. This would allow readers easily to locate library holdings in libraries worldwide through the library union catalog WorldCat. I feel this would be useful: what do others think? Dsp13 14:30, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I do appreciate that your suggestion is entirely well-intentioned. However, WP:EL says:
  • "Links should be kept to a minimum".
  • "An article about a book, a musical score, or some other media should link to a site hosting a copy of the work".
The point of this is that a Wikipedia article does not exist to hold a collection of links which are only indirectly relevant to a given subject; any external link should point to content which in itself directly illustrates the subject of the article. If this were not Wikipedia policy, it would probably be possible to justify adding dozens of links which would be of incidental use to anyone researching the subject. Unfortunately the article would then begin to resemble a link directory. WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_mirror_or_a_repository_of_links.2C_images.2C_or_media_files addresses the point. --Stephen Burnett 15:16, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the friendly way you put the point. I certainly agree that dozens of links of incidental use to researchers should not be added. As WP:NOT#REPOSITORY says, Wikipedia articles are not '[m]ere collections of external links or Internet directories... excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia'. All I'm suggesting is a single link, which I feel would be of more than incidental use to anyone researching Stravinsky: a link to a page which lists worldwide library holdings, both of titles about Stravinsky, and of titles by Stravinsky.

I do appreciate that you are suggesting a single link. The point I was making is that when 20 or 30 people each suggest a single link to a particular website which they personally feel is "useful", each making equally persuasive arguments to support the case, you will eventually end up with a web directory at the bottom of the article. It's a question of drawing a line, and that's the point of WP:EL and WP:NOT.I would also suggest that if anyone is researching Stravinsky to the extent that they require a list of library holdings, that person will by definition be highly motivated to find the necessary information anyway. Stephen Burnett 21:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that your second quotation from WP:EL is quite pertinent, since this is a biographical page rather than an 'article about a book, a musical score, or some other media'.

I'm sorry I was not more clear. By extension, if a link from an article about a book or musical score should point to a site hosting a copy of the work, then a link from a biographical article should point to a site which hosts biographical material. Stephen Burnett 21:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate the need to keep links 'to a minimum'. The question seems to be one of judgement in balancing this with the need to provide what should be linked. This includes, according to WP:EL, links to '[s]ites that contain neutral and accurate material that cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to... amount of detail' - provided that they are accessible, proper in the context of the article (here, informative and useful), and functional. Dsp13 20:07, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

A question of judgement - well, yes, and I have stated my own point of view. However, I'm prepared to be persuaded, if there is a consensus in favour. Time for others to have their say. Stephen Burnett 21:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stravinsky's Commissions

Doesn't Craft say somewhere that Stravinsky often sought out the commissions after he had begun composing the work? Signinstranger 16:53, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

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