Talk:Icons of Evolution

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[edit] Early comments

This from "Avoid Weasal Terms":

Who says that? You? Me? When did they say it? How many people think that? What kind of people think that? Where are they? What kind of bias do they have?

It's better to put a name and a face on an opinion (and to seek out other alternate opinions to discuss) than to assign an opinion to an anonymous source. This doesn't really give a neutral point of view; it just spreads hearsay, or (worse) couches personal opinion in vague, indirect syntax.

. . .

If a sentence can't stand on its own without a weasel term, it lacks NPOV (neutral point of view) and should be better defined by adding sources for the statement (which helps focus the discussion on the dispute).

I know that many biologists do not view evolution as the "unifying principle of biology." Some do. Fine. Just give a citation to who says it. --VorpalBlade 15:21, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You know biologists who do not view evolution as the unifying principle of biology? I'd be very intrested to know who, what field and what they actually do, as for most fields of biology it has been pretty difficult if not impossible to function as a biologist without recognising that evolution is the central unifying theory. I have never met a biologist who does not view evolution as the central unifying theory of biology, and I've met many. I have talked to a few creationists (though fortunately we don't tend to come across them in Europe) who make the claim that biologists do not view evolution as the central unifying theory of biology, but when asked to name some or point out where they are they've never managed to get past Wells. Joe D (t) 15:35, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The author

I suggest we divide this article into:

  1. material about the book: points it makes, and rejoinders made to them
  2. material about the author (and move these to article about him)

Moreover, it would be good to expand this article by covering more than just one or two "icons".

Also, it will help readers to distinguish between (1) rebuttals that focus on each example and (2) rebuttals that attack the author's character or motivation (see ad hominem). Uncle Ed 11:52, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

I agree, I think this division makes sense. I think the section on the author's motivation is over-long, particularly the Well's quote which dominates the article in real estate. I also think the Coynes review needs some context. There's a series of good links in the article, but they follow the preceding paragraphs somewhat randomly. --Camipco 17:15, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] External link removal

I just removed a recent entry because it did not seem notable or relevant to this article:

Bridging the Differences

If we'd like to include it, I recommend we discuss this here. Jokestress 00:04, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

To: Jokestress
From: Gary (thegreatwhitebuffalo)
I'm sorry that you feel there is no value to the link that you removed, I replaced it in hopes that you will review your position and consider that what I propose is a Win/Win for both the Religious extreme like myself and the Athiest where the essence of GOD is the ether or fabric that makes up the universe and thus the idea behind my work is to bring a unification between the Science of Evolution and the Designer that is SOOOOoo Intelligent that life could start and evolve out of space that has always existed. This theory strips credibility of all religious sources and reshapes how we think about and look at an infinite universe.
The site in question appears to be someone's personal beliefs, which do not really qualify as notable in this issue. Further, the beliefs expressed on that site are vague and unsupported by references to the ongoing debate. While there are plenty of great books and sites looking at evolution and religion (e.g. Kenneth R. Miller), this is not really on of them. Jokestress 00:37, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
Your deletion of my theory is my theory on how the Universe was created and how we evolved, there is a debate going on right now in the court of law where the argument could be settled with a new look at the evidence, if you in your wisdom are so smart as to remove everything that you believe is irrelevent to the articles about Evolution and I.D. you could cause a catastrophic down fall of our great civilization.
This really is one of them, and you young lady should consider spell check before posting your thoughts.
I recommend you make your case for including your theory at Talk:Intelligent Design. It's the main page on this topic. I struck through your spelling flame above. Wikipedia has a policy of no personal attacks on other editors, so please refrain from insults and personal remarks. Jokestress 01:16, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for showing me how to strike a line that I don't like. Please explain what you wrote above, and tell me that this isn't a typographical error. I know very well that a spell checker wouldn't pick up on this mistake, but it does exist. Here proof read what you wrote, I'll repost it right here.

(e.g. Kenneth R. Miller), this is not really on of them. Jokestress 00:37, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Now I do believe that it should read one of them. I'm sorry you appearantly have made two mistakes today.

I thank you for directing me to another source to engage the idea I am proposing, I am not looking to make matters worse, I wish I could have the oportunity to dialogue this out with out feeling violated. Sorry if you feel violated. It isn't a good thing to be stressed out over an idea. The problem is that this idea could change the world. Read what I wrote and consider the implications on humanity. Have an open mind and think outside of the box. TheGreatWhiteBuffalo 02:37, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Criticizing spelling is considered disruptive and can get your editing privileges revoked. I recommend you make your case for including your theory at Talk:Intelligent Design. It does not belong here and will be removed per Wikipedia guidelines regarding external links. Editors at Talk:Intelligent Design will be happy to discuss the value of your site as an external link. It has no specific relevance to the book Icons of Evolution, and is not appropriate for this specific article. Jokestress 02:52, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
You are critizing my theory with out giving me a fair chance to defend my position, and you don't find that disruptive? I didn't make the mistake, I only tried to validate my position, let the boss figure out what is going on here. I see that you are not willing to reason out the relevence of the information that I am offering. And FYI since you appear to be an athiest, may I add that the fabric of the universe is the space between the molecules of everything that exists, that space is the ether of the universe. Just in case you didn't understand my position, think about what that means.

Gary

  • Please be civil and avoid criticising individuals - content matters here, not who says what.
  • "since you appear to be an atheist" - apart from the fact that J's belief system is utterly irrelevant here, I can't even see how you can make that inference from this discussion.
  • Your blog does not appear related to this book.
  • Your blog does not appear to have had a major impact on the debate - there are just a handful of posts. When it has made an impact on the discourse elsewhere it might be appropriate to link to it (although not from this article). Coming here first is the wrong way to get things done - Wikipedia is not a forum for the debate. It is our job to report on notable elements and players in the debate.

Guettarda 04:04, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Gary-- Jokestress and Guettarda are right. The content you added has no place in not just this article, but wikipedia. It's spam for your original research-- a double no-no. Please read WP:CIVIL, WP:NOR, WP:RULES. Thanks. FeloniousMonk 15:06, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

To All of the above,
I'm sorry if I appear to be uncivil, I've been working real hard to get this whole concept off of the ground. We as a community can grow, and know, how to prevent (Domestic abuse) from becoming even more of a problem than it already is. We have a lot of problems in our world that certainly can be corrected. And just this one article I wrote has led me to write other articles. I am now going over them and working out the bugs and growing in knowledge of how to present my work and get feedback on my work and credit my work for the value that can be gleaned from it. My sources are as old as time and can be considered common knowledge while the way I put the idea together is rather unique and worthy of consideration and review. Peace to all of you, TheGreatWhiteBuffalo 03:30, 11 October 2005 (UTC) * Link to a Source and Concept
Furthermore; as for the comprehending that Jokestress does not adhere to the Truth, her typographical error proves to be a provoking trick as to troll for a response. She baited and tested to see if I could be provoked. The obvious point to be made is that she never edited her mistake and never appologized for making that mistake. She immediately took offense to the fact that I pointed out the error in her typing, and never accepted that removing my work would offend me without first giving me the opportunity to understand the rules and why my Edit was in violation of the rules which seem to be rather slanted to only including notable writers and excluding the up and coming. My work was probably not even read. I know that because I know who I am and what I wrote when comprehended makes a great impact on the reader, as in WOW! TheGreatWhiteBuffalo 00:50, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Criticisms of Wells, presentation of book, criticism of book

Criticisms of Jonathan Wells is off-topic here. This article is about the book. Andries 20:30, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

  • Before biologists discovered that peppered moths don’t normally rest on tree trunks, many experiments were conducted by pinning or gluing dead moths to tree trunks. This practice should have been abandoned, however, once biologists knew that it fails to test the camouflage-predation theory under natural conditions. In Icons of Evolution, I criticized textbooks that continue to use staged photos of moths on tree trunks to illustrate natural selection--though I stopped short of calling them “fraudulent.” [1]

I didn't quite catch the reason this Wells quote was taken out. Don't our readers want even one example of an "icon" Wells critiques?

I suggest we divide this article into:

  1. material about the book: points it makes, and rejoinders made to them
  2. material about the author (and move these to article about him)

Moreover, it would be good to expand this article by covering more than just one or two "icons".

Also, it will help readers to distinguish between (1) rebuttals that focus on each example and (2) rebuttals that attack the author's character or motivation (see ad hominem). Uncle Ed 23:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Ed but yet once again you're seeking to undermine the majority's view, which is critical of Wells, and in turn circumvent WP:NPOV. What you propose is to separate the views critical of Wells and the book from their context, creating a hierarchy of fact where Wells' view, an extreme minority view, is presented as is "true" and "undisputed" whereas that of the scientific community, the majority view here, is presented as a fringe view that "controversial" and therefore more likely to be false, an implication that is inaccurate and violates a specific clause of WP:NPOV.
Your recent habit of bouncing from ID-related article to article adding biased content and arguing to insert content that ignores or violates policy is becoming disruptive, Ed. Since you are on arbcom probation prohibiting this very activity and you've already been spoken to several times about this on your talk page over the last 3 days and yet here you are, still at it. If you continue this pattern don't be surprised if some are compelled to seek enforcement of the terms your probation. FeloniousMonk 05:14, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Agree for the most part with User:Andries that criticism of Jonathan Wells is off-topic here and should mainly go in the article about Wells. An article about a book should present what the book is about, including main themes and arguments, and in the case of a highly controversial book such as this one, criticism of the book. I do not at all agree with Wells's program/agenda or views on evolution or on "intelligent design," but this article is still very heavy on criticism and a bit light on presentation of the book, even after I cleaned up a few obvious problems. User:FeloniousMonk's criticism of User:Ed Poor seems unwarranted. Obviously it is not biased to explain one of Wells' "icons" when the article is so heavy on criticism. -Exucmember 09:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
It's based on an arbcomm ruling concerning Ed. How is that not warranted? Guettarda 20:45, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Campaign to keep this article highly biased

I made a series of 17 edits, most of which no reasonable person could dispute, including correction of such banalities as the correct title of a Wikipedia article, and I added the "Unbalanced" template, because even after my edits the article was still highly biased and very unbalanced. Several editors have refused even to allow any of my 17 edits to see the light of day. If those editors feel a hachet job is in the best interest of readers, I think they are mistaken. Many readers can easily tell that an article is highly biased. -Exucmember 20:29, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

  1. Making 17 separate edits really messes up the page history - please consider using the preview button.
  2. I was in the process of trying to re-instate your useful edits when you reverted the page. If you choose to edit war, don't expect people to rush to clean up after you. Guettarda 20:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I use the preview button, thank you. When I have edits on different issues, I cite a rationale or summary of what I am doing in each one. People may disagree with some of my edits and not others. This way they can clearly see what I have done on each topic and why.

You kept my article title correction and my semicolons, and none of the others. -Exucmember 07:13, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The statement "Wells' doctorate in biology at University of California, Berkeley was funded by Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church" does not match the citation. -Exucmember 07:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Case study"

  1. Two quotes does not make a "case study". That is not the way you write an encyclopaedia article.
  2. This contrast is unrepresentative of most of what has been said about Icons.
  3. The "case study" is misleading. As many people have pointed out, Coyne got it wrong on this one.

Guettarda 13:42, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I modified my contribution so that it no longer conflicts with any of your 3 objections above, but you simply dismissed it with "rv per talk" even though you didn't write anything else here. Did you not notice that I changed my contribution very substantially to answer all 3 of your objections? -Exucmember 06:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
You changed your edit, but did not address the my points. Instead of presenting two quotes, you presented only one. To begin with, that does nothing to address the primary problem - your addition is not a section of the article, it's a quote with no context. Undiscussed quotes are copyvios. Additionally, your original version consisted of two quotes, one by Wells, the other by Coyne. While Coyne is a very poor choice on the peppered moth, going from a bad perspective to no perspective is not in keeping with NPOV. So no, you did not correct the problems with that section. Guettarda 06:21, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Your response makes it clear that I did address your objections, and that you are now creating new ones. Perhaps you could show good faith by providing the needed perspective, being careful to represent Wells's views as he would present them. -Exucmember 06:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
"Making things worse" isn't the same as "addressing concerns". I explained the problems, and you exacerbated them. Wikipedia articles are supposed to be written using secondary and tertiary sources. They are not supposed to be verbatim quotes of primary sources. Since you obviously don't believe me, consult the appropriate policy and guidelines (WP:NPOV, WP:NOT, WP:MOS, etc.) and stop making false accusations. Guettarda 17:16, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
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