Talk:Ica stones
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Article seems slightly one-sided. Other sources say that there is a dark varnish in the grooves, seeming to state that they were of ancient origin. Also I read somewhere about the facts of how many people and how much time it would take to hoax all those stones. I might eventually edit this page, but I'm pretty busy. I just thought it should cover both sides of the argument.--216.229.235.67 17:43, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
As Carl Sagan was fond of saying, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" and there has been no extraordinary evidence (effectively no evidence at all, for that matter) presented to back the extraoridnary claims made. Even some corroborating circumstantial evidence would be worth mentioning. "That no one has ever found any other remnant of this great culture [indicated by the stones] should be troublesome, however." (Carrol, http://skepdic.com/icastones.html) Until someone can come up with more than anecdotal testimony from an individual or two (who, not coincidentally keep changing their stories about the origin of the stones) that they are anything but modern-day carvings, I don't see that there is "another side" to present about them. 208.26.45.85 19:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Some people will believe the stupidest bullshit... I dont see any neutrality problem at all, both pro and counter claims are present.
Sagan's oft quoted statement is unscientific and silly: extraordinary claims DO NOT require extraordinary evidence...they merely require evidence. To suggest that ordinary evidence is itself not worthy of supporting one kind of claim but perfectly valid in another (say, a murder trial, for instance, in which even circumstantial evidence is allowed) is to inavlidate the scientific method, which rests on gathered data. It implies that evidence is not indeed evidence. The data need not be extraordinary; if it is merely ordinary, and yet supports the thesis, then it is perfectly valid. Furthermore, who is to decide what constitutes "extraordinary" when we are interpreting data? If, for instance, a double-blind study on ESP reveals that 51 percent of the time, the test-subject are making hits, this is statistically significant, even though it is not a great number of hits beyond chance. So, while ordinary, it is also in a sense extraordinary, because it tends to support the existence of psychic phenomena. I find the entire discussion about the Ica stones to be biased from every angle, and see very little openmindedness, or true scientific investigative curiosity, on display here. All the evidence should be looked at, including the grooves and varnish, as well as the hoaxed data, and comments such as "some people will believe the stupidest ***" should be regarded as childish ill will - just more of the same derision by those who are challenged by concepts that may not yet have been explained by scientific methods, or may be unexplainable using current scientific knowledge. -DP
--Sagan's oft quoted line is absolutely scientific and your argument against it simply displays a singular misunderstanding of science that is oft repeated by fringe believers who seem to think precious time and money should be spent continually investigating ridiculous claims and when this isn't done they charge the scientific community as being unimaginative and closed minded. Ica Stones as an example: Known factual scientific evidence in favor of their being genuine:
None, other than they exist.
Known factual scientific evidence in favor of their being a hoax:
No dinosaur fossils have ever been found after the KT barrier. Conversely, hominids did not exist before this time either(and for long after that time for that matter). No concurrent supporting artistic renditions of dinosaurs in any of the civilizations that developed in Peru. Pre-Columbian engraved stones brought back to Spain do not show anything like dinosaurs or operations or anything unusual. Stone engravings could not survive millions of years in such numbers and all be perfectly intact.
Known circumstances in favor of a hoax:
One man claims to have found all the unusual stones and will not show scientists where he found them, nor will he allow scientists examine to them anymore after one man noted the lines don't display the patina noted on the stone. This man is making lots of money of the tourist and fringe book industry. This man is a physician but makes claims in fields he has no knowledge of. Multiple artists (and the farmer who provided him with his first stones) have stepped forward and stated they made the stones for him with images based on comics, newspapers and books. The dinosaur depictions show dinosaurs standing in postures that have long ago been shown not accurate but fit nicely with the idea that they were taken from old renditions prior to new factual evidence arising. These stones are common folk art in Peruvian markets and none but the good Doctor claim them to be more than than that.
So, looking just at the scientific evidence alone, evidence supported by over a century of research in every field of science, you can see that a singular claim that supposes to defy the fields of geology, archeology, paleontology, anthropology, biology, gentetics, cosmology and many more (tens of thousands of researchers) that all arrive alone and through relation to similar conclusions about out planets history must, by definition be described as an "extraordinary claim". A claim of such magnitude would need a similar amount of corroborating evidence through repeatable tests and supportable predictions which would have to be termed "extraordinary evidence". That's science.
As for your ESP notion, 1% is not statistically significant in any way unless the test group numbered in the many millions. There has never been a scientfically monitored double blind study of ESP that has not fallen under the previously established criteria for statisical significance. Which by the way, must be established prior to testing because it is woefully easy to find statistical significance in any study if data is provided first. That's the first ground rule of statistical studies. That's science. Capeo 16:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Original creator admited it was a hoax. End of story.
[edit] Extraordinary Claims....
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" yeah i feel the same way about gods existance and yet billions of people worship him everyday....... Squad'nLeedah 12:35, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
- I recommend apologetic "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis for such sceptical minds as your. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.121.100.137 (talk) 09:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC).
- That said, I don't see where the neutrality problem is as far as this article is concerned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.128.36.37 (talk) 07:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC).
