Talk:Ibn Yunus

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[edit] Background info on Ibn Yunus Familly

Ibn Yunus surname was Al-Sadafi, a very well known yemeni arab tribe from Hadramaut in Yemen, that had immagrated during the Islamic expansion mostly to Egypt and Al-Andalus. The historian Ibn Khaldun says [1]: "بنو الصدف - بفتح الصاد وكسر الدال المهملتين حي من حضرموت وحضرموت يأتي نسبه عند ذكره في حرف الحاء المهملة حضر منهم جماعة فتح مصر مع عمرو بن العاص واختلطوا بها‏."

Translated: Banu al-sadaf - ...are a district of Hadramaut...some of them attended the opening of Egypt(Islamic conquest of egypt) with A'mr ibn al-A's, then they stayed there. Jidan 10:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arab?

Having a title like "Al-Misri", "al-Andalusi" or "al-Afriqi", does not really make you not Arab, specially when you have another title/family name (in Ibn Yunus's case it's al-Sadafi). Ibn Khallikan in his book wafayat al-Ayan wrote that Ibn Yunus Sr. is from al-Sadaf, the Arabian tribe. Also, al-Sam'ani wrote that on his book al-Ansab. please check this page to see the cited texts from these books. About his name, alot of Arabic books mention al-Sadafi in his name or his grandfather's (the historian) name. Some of these books are:

  1. Wafayat al-Ayan for Ibn Khallikan. p. 463. from alwarraq.net
  2. Osd al-Ghaba for Ibn al-Athir. p. 32. from alwarraq.net
  3. Al-Ansab for Sama'ani. p. 847-848. from alwarraq.net
  4. Al-Wafi be al-Wafayat for al-Safadi. p 2559. from alwarraq.net

So, he's an Arab. --Lanov 06:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Hardly! Ibn Khallikan lived a good three centuries after Ibn Yunus, Sr. and his claim sounds a great deal like Arab folk legend along the lines of Arab#Origin rather than actual history. I've already heard something to that effect from Jidan, so please see my response to him on my talk page. If you want to add a brief note that a 13th century jurist claimed that Ibn Yunus belonged to that tribe because one of his names was al-Sadafi, then that's verifiable. But treating that as unmitigated evidence that Ibn Yunus was an Arab from Yemen when a range of other sources, including his own, point to his Egyptian origins is original research. It's also worth noting that it was common practice for mawali to connect their lineage with an Arabian tribe for the prestige that it conferred at that time. The result is that Muslim peoples across Africa to this very day claim to be descended from Arabian tribes or directly from Muhammad when all the evidence points to their African origins. The controversy regarding Ibn Khaldun's ancestry for example comes to mind. — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · ☥ 07:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Treating those 3 references we have on the article, that just wrote "Egyptian astronomer" when describing ibn Yunus, as an evidence that he's Egyptian is original research. Saying or trying to say that he's one of the mawali is also original research. Degrading ibn Khallikan and claiming that his work is not actual history is also original research. BTW, the authors of these so-called "references" we have on the article lived 10 centuries after Ibn Yunus Jr. Does this make them better than ibn Khallikan?
Please provide me with the names of the "range of other sources, including his own" that point to his Egyptian origins? Because if you do not, it will original research. --Lanov 19:21, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
"Evidence that he's Egyptian"?? Ridiculous! You mean the fact he was born in Egypt, his father was a foremost specialist in Egyptian history and a biographer of prominent Egyptians, who never left Egypt, is called al-Misri, which unquestionably has no meaning besides Egyptian, is treated as one in mainstream literature cited--and it needs "evidence" that he's Egyptian?
His being Egyptian is not a question. The only question here is if Ibn Yunus can certainly be connected to that Arabian tribe. And let's not forget that that tribe would have supposedly come to Egypt a full three hundred years prior to his birth, but somehow a reasonable person is supposed to believe that this anecdote automatically makes him an Arab! It is one thing to include in his biography that such story exists, which is verifiable, and another entirely to treat it as indisputable fact, which it isn't. — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · ☥ 21:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
  • 1)Al-Misri, is just a title that you can get if you lived in egypt(misr). Look for example at Ibn al-Haitham, he had also the title al-Misri [2], alhtough he came from Basra. Or look at Abu al-Faraj al-Isfahani, who was an arab that lived in Isfahan,Iran but got the title because he lived there for some time, etc..
  • 2) Ibn Khallikan citations which mention him as stemming from an arabian tribe, is a primray source and significant. Yes, he lived 200 years later as you said, but he took those citations from earlier sources.
  • 3) As I said earlier in the talk page of Zerida (before she deleted becasue she accused me of being uncivil [3]), being knowledgable in egyptain histroy doesn't make you neceseraly one. The founders of Egyptology and most influental people like for example Jean-François Champollion, weren't coptic/egyptian.
  • 4)Finaly, Ibn Yunus case is similiar to Ptolemy. He was born there and lived there, but still he is not considered egyptian, but rather greek.

Lets just say he was both, Egyptian and Arab; i.e. he was an Egyptian Arab. Jidan 00:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not inclined to go around in circles repeating myself. I simply included the information that I mentioned before in his bio. It's up to you if you want to include information from Ibn Khallikan, but you might want to look up the meaning of a primary source. — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · ☥ 07:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I already know what I wanted to know and the discussion page in some articles (including this one) is more informative and more NPOV than the article itself.Jidan 00:06, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
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