Talk:Ibn Taymiyyah

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The edits I made on this page only involved some spelling corrections ("criticized", "resemblance", "believed", "considered") and a capitalization of the word "Muslims" in one place.

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[edit] Arabic transcription inconsistency?

The transcription says "Abu al-Abbas", but the Arabic says "Abu Abbas" (without the definite article). AnonMoos 17:05, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually, if the Arabic is correct, the whole thing is wrong and should be more like "Abu 'Abbas Taqi Ad-din Ahmad Bin 'abd As-salam Bin 'abd Allah Ibn Muhammad Ibn Taymiya Al-Haran" Nathanm mn 23:16, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jahmiyyah

How is "Jahmi" spelled in Arabic letters? I can't find the word in my Arabic dictionaries... AnonMoos 15:45, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

'Jahm' is spelt jeem-haa-meem (جهم) and jahmiyyah is an attribute to the name of jahm ibn safwan, the first to deny God's atttributes in the islmaic tradition

212.138.47.17 08:03, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anon attacking article

An anon is attacking the article, removing most of it and replacing with anti-Ibn Taymiya text. I agree that the article, as it stands, is a mess and very pro-Salafi POV. However, completely removing that POV and replacing it with another is not the best answer. The article needs to be completely rewritten. I'm short on time and I don't speak Arabic. I will try to recruit someone who can translate the article from the Arabic Wikipedia. Zora 21:37, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Misguiding information

The current page that is present on the site did not only include terrible grammar but also generalized that Muslims as a whole accepted and praised Ibn Taymiya's actions and teachings (regarding attributes of Allah). In reality, the Muslim scholars and layperson alike know and agree that Ibn Taymiya was misguided and contradicted the teachings of the Prophet and his companions. The page shows the extreme point of views commonly found amongst the Wahabbis. The new, shorter, and more direct page is not anti Ibn Taymiya but rather states 2 nuetral points: 1.He was very well versed in Hadith and 2. The scholars of his time and ours rejected his teachings that broke the ^ijma (scholarly consensus) of the scholars before him. Furthermore, the newer page is actually a version of the ORIGINAL posting on this website from July of 2003. PLEASE, ANYONE READING THIS, KNOW THAT THE DESCRIPTION YOU WERE JUST READING ON THE PREVIOUS PAGE IS WRITTEN BY THE SAME MISGUIDED MINDS THAT BROUGHT YOU THE TRAGEDY OF 9/11. PLEASE GO BACK TO THE IBN TAYMIYA PAGE AND CLICK ON HISTORY AND THEN CLICK ON THE 22:59, 26 September 2005 VERSION TO GET A MORE ACCURATE PORTRAYAL OF THIS MAN (or click below).

THE TRUTH

Yes, anonymous IP, the article as it stands is a mess. However, we can't just erase one POV (Ibn Taymiya is a great scholar) and replace it with another (Ibn Taymiya is a heretic). We need an article that presents both views, and the arguments for each side. When there's a controversy, we need to present enough information for a reader to decide what he/she thinks. We shouldn't tell the reader what to think.

I've asked two Arabic-speaking Wikipedians to translate the Arabic article, which I hope is more even-handed. If not, we need to edit until the article is NPOV. Zora 23:41, 26 September 2005 (UTC)


Will you at least allow me to remove the remarks that include false sweeping generalizations such as "All Muslims believe...?" I am Muslim and I know hundreds of Muslims PERSONALLY who do not believe this. And we wonder why we have such negative stereotypes in the west...

If you are referrring to this statement,
"He is referred to today as "Shaykh-ul-Islam" or Sir - Shaykh of Islam by all muslims."
I would suggest changing it to something like
He is referred to today as "Shaykh-ul-Islam" or Sir - Shaykh of Islam by (fill in the blank with "his followers" or whatever school of thought). nobs 02:45, 27 September 2005 (UTC)


Thank you for your time and effort. This is much less one sided than the previous version. I appreciate your quick response.

[edit] Put placeholder up

I rewrote the article in what I hope is a more NPOV fashion. It is probably not as good as the article from the Arabic Wiki and if Shafi'i or Mustafaa get that article translated, I'm not going to be at all upset if my version is wiped.

I also made a preliminary attempt to sort out the links. It is evident that the pro-Salafi links vastly outnumber all the others. I think that those links should be trimmed down. I don't have the energy to do that right now. Only the best links should be kept. Zora 05:32, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removed bit re contingent of volunteers

I slogged through several of the articles on Ibn Taymiya listed in the external links, and only ONE of them mentioned actual warfare against the Mongols. That seemed to a rather excitable Salafi site. The more I thought about it, the more unlikely it seemed that a scholar would be raising and leading a contingent of volunteers. I also found out that he wanted a jihad against the Mongols even though the Ilkhans had converted to Islam, on the grounds that they weren't REAL Muslims. I tweaked the article slightly to remove the claim that he had engaged in violent jihad, and also to clarify that he wanted to declare jihad against fellow Muslims.

If someone can find REAL evidence for Ibn Taymiya's supposed jihadi activities, then we can put it in again. Zora 11:13, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Question: Would issueing a fatwa be considering "leading a jihad". In literary terms it may certainly be considered so. I will look into sourcing, but it may take a few days. nobs 16:24, 28 September 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Origin of Ibn Taymia

in spite that Ibn Taymia has been born in Harran , a town in a kurdish region right now , but there is no confidence that he is from kurdish origin , against the situation of Salhuddin . --Unfinishedchaos 11:33, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ignorance

This article refers to Muhammad ibn abd al-Wahhab as al-Wahhab, which is one of the names of Allah. abd al-Wahhab means "the slave of al-Wahhab". To call someone named ibn abd al-Wahhab as al-Wahhab would be like calling someone named abd Allah as Allah. Furthermore, his name wasn't even abd al-Wahhab, that was his fathers name. He was named Muhammed ibn (son of) abd al-Wahhab.

[edit] Good work

This is actually settling in to be a fairly good article -- most of the recent edits have actually been improvements (which is by no means the case with many articles on similar subjects). AnonMoos 17:53, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Copyedit, Ibn Nasir al-Din

The article had been worked over by various editors who, I'm guessing, do not speak English as a first language. I copyedited, also removed a few POV statements. I don't like what I read about Ibn Taymiya, but we have to be fair, and that means not labeling him an "innovator".

The one major change I made was in removing the name Ibn Nasir al-Din from the list of his students. Some websites give this name as Taymiya's student, but I have been unable to figure out just WHO he was. Googling produces thousands of references to Ibn Nasir al-Din al-Tusi, but none to just plain Ibn Nasir al-Din. If someone knows who is meant, we can restore his name -- preferably with a sobriquet added -- and create an article for him. Zora 20:53, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

As far as I know Ibn Nasir al Din was not a student of ibn Taymiyah. Born the year 777, and died the year 842. His name was Muhammad ibn Abdullah ibn Muhammad, known popularly as Ibn Nasir al Din. he was a schoalr of the Shafi school. (see hidayat al arifin 1/553) He did however write a rebuttal against Ala'a al Din al Bukhari who after moving to Damascus, aroused the Asharis, attacked the hanbalis, and exaggerated blame against ibn taymiyah, declaring him to be a disbeliever. At this Ibn nasir al din wrote a book (al radd al wafir ala man za'ama Anna ibn taymiyah bi annahu kafir/ trans: a complete rebuttal of he who thought that ibn taymiyah was a disbeliever) in praise of Ibn taymiyah, mentioning those who praised him from his time (i.e. ibn taymiyah) until his. He then sent the book to egypt for the approval of its scholars; gaining a majority of them. At this the ruler gave an order that no one is to rebuke another for his beliefs, and with this the fighting between the two factions subsided. this all occured in the year 835 hegira. (Summarized from Inbaa' al Ghumr of Ibn Hajar 1/586). wilis.azmWilis.azm 08:30, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Don't use names of Allah

If someones name is Muhammad Ibn Abd al-Whahab, don't refer to the man as 'Al-Whahab', beacsue Al-Whahab is one of the names of god, and for instance if you said "Al-Whahab wrote a book deeming such and such a kafir..." Then you would be saying God wrote a book deemign such and such a kafir. Just like "Jeffrey" is one name "Abdul-Whahab" [or abd' al-whahab] is 1 name, if you remove the Abd' it chnages the meaning all together. [i mention this again becasue it seems the last time soemoen mentioend it, it didn't get the poitn across] -cronodevir

It really should be spelled 'Abdul-Wahhab' --Islami 21:55, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Anti Salafi sites

Hi. I had added som anti salafi sites and they were removed. I think there should be a fair balance here of pro external links as well as anti salafi links. I suggest adding these links :

By the way these are all anti salafi links :)

But those are all about Salafiyya, not about Ibn Taymiya. I believe several of those are linked to the Salafi article already. Zora 21:45, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ibn Taymiyya qua Sufi

7up, As long as the statement "Ibn Taymiya is believed by many of his contemporary admirers to have been a stern critic of Sufism. " is correct, then it should stay. In fact Ibn Taymiya has so many fatwas attributing Sufisim with Fusuq. This is an example of that: http://www.sahab.org/books/book.php?id=1192&query=

--Islamic 14:17, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Islami, The fact is that Ibn Taymiyya was critical of many practices of popular Sufism, while he lauded Sufi exemplars such as Abdul Qadir Jilani, which is proven by his book Sharh Futuh al-Ghayb, which he himself wrote. I know this is hard for you to accept, but if you would read a little history instead of simply trying to write it yourself, you would understand that many Sufis throughout history have been very critical of other Sufis and Sufi practices. I have included as a reference G. Makdisi's article 'Ibn Taymiyya: A Sufi of the Qadiriya Order', which can be found in the American Journal of Arabic Studies, 1973. Since this is not located on the internet, where it seems you get all your information from, I would recommend going to a library and actually doing a little research. (7up 14:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC))

7UP, again, As long as the statement "Ibn Taymiya is believed by many of his contemporary admirers to have been a stern critic of Sufism. " is correct, then it should stay. --Islamic 16:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Islami, This is an encyclopedia article, which rests on fact and not what some people believe. Why don't you start a different page entitled, "What Some People Believe about Ibn Taymiya" and I promise to let you say anything you want. In the meantime, the fact is that Ibn Taymiya did not criticize Sufism "as a discipline," but he "opposed the seemingly pantheist descriptions of certain Sufis, known as 'ittihadiyya.'" See Sh. Hisham Mohammed Kabbani's discussion of this at http://forums.muslimvillage.net/lofiversion/index.php/t6999.html (7up 21:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC))

Ibn Taymiya short comments on Futuh al-Ghayb do not prove your point. And you are wrong again; most of my information are not from the Internet. Ibn Taymiya criticized Sufism in so many places in his books and he attributed it with Fusuq sometimes as I have proved in the link above.

7up, Your edits violate the Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy. In fact, there is no clear evident that Ibn Taymiya was part of any Tariqa. The policy says: "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not." That applies to your case. You bring up a viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority (only few Sufi authors), that contradicts the viewpoint of the majority.

--Islamic 19:12, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Islami, In fact I have provided ample evidence by way of reference to both on and offline articles that utilize Ibn Taymiya’s own works, which show he was part of the Qadiriyya Sufi order and not opposed to all forms of Sufism, but only particular aspects. Moreover, you have not provided any references for your statements. As for the “majority” that you mention, it is actually a “minority” in terms of current scholarship in the field (opinions of religious minorities, i.e. neo-Salafi thought, does not count as an academic consensus). I have amended this section to clarify these points.

(7up 21:18, 6 April 2006 (UTC))


[edit] IP 70.52.110.9 added this to the Sufi section of the article page:

I ask that whoever wrote the above dubious quote about Ibn taymiya to fear Allah and say the truth. This isn't strange since other fabrications were attributed to him.

--AnonMoos 07:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

I rewrote the bit re Ibn Taymiya and Sufism, making it clear that there's a controversy about whether or not he was a Sufi. The article as it stood implied that there was no doubt about it. I tend to believe that he was, but we have to be even-handed, and present those statements as POV, not as truth. Zora 06:21, 15 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Re: Rewrite

Zora, your rewrite evinces your obvious talent for editing and concise summation.

However, upon thinking over your above statement I have a few things to say. In your well-intended striving to be democratic here, I am afraid that you are actually giving voice to ignorance rather than legitimate contention. Part of this ignorance, is a very general misunderstanding of what Sufism is as such – for it quickly became the grand scapegoat for all problems that faced Muslim society in the colonial period and was portrayed by the Wahhabis and Salafis (who do not represent traditional Islamic scholarship by the way) as the practice of extreme esoteric rites, which were far from the proper understanding of Islam as presented by the Qur’an and hadith literature.

Importantly, however, Sufism does not always manifest as “esotericism,” but is more correctly an interior ethics that prioritizes internal psycho-spiritual awareness and ethical behavior over empty dogmatism. Moreover, it is quite common for classical Sufi masters to refer to Sufism as simply the practice of good manners (adab), for the Prophet Muhammad is recorded in a sound hadith as saying, “I was sent to complete the beautiful character traits (husn al-akhlaq)."

Regarding Ibn Taymiya, Victor Danner has stated, “In the days of Ibn Taymiyyah, it was not unusual for many of the religious scholars to have Sufi masters [...]. Ibn Taymiyyah was no exception to the general rule; he too had his Sufi teacher. But this must not lead us to believe that the Hanbali faqih was something of an esoterist in his own right, for it is clear from his very writings that the contemplative esoterism was not altogether to his liking.” (“The Shadhiliyyah and North African Sufism” in Islamic Spirituality: Manifestations, pp. 37-38).

My point is that there have been plenty of Sufi reformers, like Ibn Taymiya, who were not contemplatives or esoterists, but ascetic moralists. By including the Wahhabi position as a “possible alternative,” and not simply as outright denial of the fact that Ibn Taymiya was very clearly involved with Sufism, you are helping to continue a fundamentalist falacy, as well as sustain erroneous and bigoted understandings of Sufism.

[edit] Salafi/Anti-Salafi Links

Looking over the page, I notice there is a section devoted to anti-Salafi and Salafi links. I think they may be a little out of place in this article. I don't think this is the appropriate place to discuss or debate Salafiyyah. There is a salafi article on that. The argument can be made that you can't discuss Ibn Taymiyyah without discussing Salafiyyah. If we assume that to be true, then definitely the links aren't necessary as it is not supposed to be pro/anti salafi as it is only a tertiary topic relating to the life of ibn Taymiyyah. ZaydHammoudeh 05:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Works Page

I want to also add a page listing the works of ibn Taymiyyah. Does anyone have any thoughts or objections. ZaydHammoudeh 05:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Music

Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: It is not permissible to make musical instruments. (al-Majmoo', 22/140). And he said: According to the majority of fuqahaa', it is permissible to destroy musical instruments, such as the tanboor [a stringed instrument similar to a mandolin]. This is the view of Maalik and is the more famous of the two views narrated from Ahmad. (al-Majmoo', 28/113). Ibn Abi Shaybah (may Allaah have mercy on him) reported that a man broke a mandolin belonging to another man, and the latter took his case to Shurayh. But Shurayh did not award him any compensation, i.e., he did not make the first man pay the cost of the mandolin, because it was haram and had no value. (al-Musannaf, 5/395).from http://muttaqun.com/music.html

Could someone more knowledgable about this topic than I incorporate the above content?Yeago 05:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Add names for searching

Some other variations of Ibn Taymiya's name in English are:

1) Ibn Taimiyyah (this occurs in the 9/11 Commission Report)

2) Ibn Taimiyah (this occurs in the book: Ibn Taimiyah Life & Achievements by Sayyed Abdul Hasan 'Ali Nadwi)

3) Ibn Taymiyya (this occurs in the book: History of the Arab Peoples by Albert Hourani)

4) Ibn Taymiyah (this occurs in the book: A History of God by Karen Armstrong)

5) Ibn Taymiya (this occurs in the book: Voices of Resurgent Islam edited by John L. Esposito, p. 38 in an article by John O. Voss)

[edit] Rewrite

The last huge edit evinced bias material and evangelical intentions. I have taken the important information and distilled it into a managable and readable form. -- User:7up 04:04, 27 July 2006

If the other version was biased, you should work on adding the other view, not replaced it with your POV version! --Islamic 12:20, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Islami, I don't know what "POV" means, but the previous text is unacceptable as an encyclopedia entry as because of the following: (1) It is way, way, way too long, and too specialized (2) It has inappropriate proselytizing statements such as: "So people please read and pay heed to the words of the noble scholar !!!! This is enough proof for those that are just and who are sincerely seeking the truth ...and Allah knows best." (3) It is written in the style of religious rhetoric such as found in mosque pamphlets (4) It completely overwrote what came before it without due need or explanation.

The current rewrite takes all of the pertinent information provided by the pamphlet-like text and integrates it into an appropriate encyclopedia entry (7up 12:50, 28 July 2006 (UTC)).

[edit] Striver

Striver, why are you referencing an atheism site for basic facts about his life? That's almost grotesque in the context of the current article. AnonMoos 01:30, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Jerusalem (not actually Striver, sorry)

Furthermore, stop changing the statement about Jerusalem to something you guess that he might have said, but which he didn't actually say. I've added a very specific reference to a source for this statment. He also says the same thing somewhere in his collected Fatwas, but I wasn't able to master the numbering and cross-reference system there well enough to enable me to find the right one (all I had to go on was a reference to "Ibn Taymiyya Fatwa 26/118", and my Arabic wasn't good enough to enable me to browse through volume 26 of the printed editions to find the exact one if "26/118" didn't lead me directly to the correct place, which it didn't...). AnonMoos 01:30, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I have added a reference to what Ibn Taymiya says about visiting Al-Aqsa. He said:
"Visiting Bait al-Maqdis is desirable." (زيارة بيت المقدس مستحبة ). --Islamic 06:42, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Nope, unfortunately that's a highly-inadequate summary of Ibn Taymiyyah's overall views towards Jerusalem. He may not have been absolutely opposed to the "Ziyaarah", but he was extremely opposed to making the ziyara be any kind of replacement or substitute for the ħajj, and he opposed any attempt to make Jerusalem rival Mecca and Medina -- he very explicity said that Jerusalem could NOT be called an Islamic ħaram.
Here's a quote from the work قاعدة في زيارة بيت المقدس which I referenced in the "01:18, 23 September 2006" version of the article:
وليس ببيت المقدس مكانا يسمى حرما ولا بتربة الخليل ولا بغير ذلك من البقاع إلا ثلثة أماكن:‏
أحدهما هو حرم مكة شرفها
والثاني حرم النبي صلعم
والثالث وجّ وهو وادٍ بالطائف
Sorry it's not a continuous quote (explanations and parenthetical references are omitted which do not affect the basic meaning), but I can't find my copy of the journal article here, and would have to go back to the university library to make a new copy.
If your Arabic is better than mine, then maybe you could track down Fatwa 26/118, where he reportedly says the same thing (though maybe with a little less certainly on the "Wejj issue"). AnonMoos 16:20, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks AnonMoos for the explanation. I found the quote in 27/15 at: http://arabic.islamicweb.com/Books/taimiya.asp?book=381&id=13098 You are correct on it, but the english wording is very confusing. I agree 100% with you on "he was extremely opposed to making the ziyara be any kind of replacement or substitute for the ħajj" This is the common Sunni view too. On the other side, visiting shrines is a different issue. Not all Sunnies agree with Ibn Taymiya. In fact he was sent to jail for forbidding a travel (Ziyara) to the grave of the prophet (p). I suggest that paragraph to be expanded a little bit to remove the confusion. --Islamic 18:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Jerusalem? Im confused and do not understand what you are reffering to. This? If that is the case, i can't recall editing that part, or being involved it. If i was, it must have been some error on my part. Feel free to change the references, i am not attached to it, but figured it was better than a "fact" tag. Peace. --Striver 02:00, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
OK sorry, it was actually 04:15, 22 September 2006 68.111.74.87 who was responsible, my mistake... AnonMoos 15:52, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
No problem. peace. --Striver 23:37, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name of article

Ta marbutah (ة) is not generally transcribed as "h" in Wikipedia articles. There's a set of Arabic transcription guidelines which has rules for that sort of thing, but I'm not sure exactly where it's located... AnonMoos 19:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

if you're talking about wiki transliteration/transcription guidelines, you may be referring to WP:AMOS. i guess including "h" on the end would be more accurate, though i am not sure which rendering would be more regarded as the "primary transliteration" (the hits for with and without are almost the same). ITAQALLAH 04:06, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Ibn Taymiy(y)a(h)doesn't really have any one predominent conventional way of writing his name in English (as you pointed out), so that something more like a linguistic transcription should be used. The page you link to rather disappointingly says "Ways of dealing with ta' marbuta are still to be determined"(!), but in fact the majority of article titles on English-language wikipedia don't seem to transcribe ta marbuta. I tried to rename "Ibn Taymiyyah" back to "Ibn Taymiyya", but for some reason it wouldn't let me (maybe because all the redirects are so tangled)... AnonMoos 04:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I think there are no guidelines about ta marbutah because it's one of the most complicated letters to deal with. In pronunciation it is sometimes a "t" and sometimes an "h", and English speakers can't tell the difference anyway. I think the most accurate way is to keep it as an "h". Pretty much all the academic links use an "h" and spell it Taymiyyah. I suggest keeping the article title as Ibn Taymiyyah. Cuñado - Talk 04:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pic

Striver: Feel free to use the pic. I have a higher res copy if that would be useful. Brian from http://www.readingeagle.com/blog/syria

jeay, great! It pays of to ask :) --Striver 10:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
lol, i love your comment to the pic :D --Striver 10:19, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Salafi View

Somebody had written in the Salafi view of Ibn Taimiya that he was a supporter of sufism and given the reference of a shia site that dosen't even site its name on its page. I am deleting it. If you write against something thart is popularly belived give a proper refrence T A

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