Talk:IBM System i

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[edit] Precursor to Smalltalk

The article suggests that the AS400's virtual intruction set might be a precursor to a programming language whose standard version, Smalltalk-80, was released EIGHT YEARS before the AS400 line was released. Smalltalk itself had been around for some considerable time bbefore that. This is something of a reach, to say the least. Anyone care to justify this claim, before I remove it?

Liam Proven 15:54, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Agreed, remove it. The entire comparison of the S/38 / AS/400 / iSeries MI to platforms like Java and .NET (which are in themselves fairly different) is pretty weak; I'll try to think of some better phrasing for that section. -- uberpenguin 16:16, 2005 Apr 20 (UTC)
It is done. I've reworded the entire paragraph to remove the claim of primacy but retain the association of ideas. Liam Proven 13:09, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Said to be" means that it is up for discussion. It is not. I have seen OLD programs run over time. This is not a sales pitch. If you are a competent programmer and have source you WILL recompile programs to make use of the latest compiler improvements. Removing Mr Soltis as the source of the statement of the programmers working on OS/400 and licensed programs is silly as without it makes no sense anymore. What is the point of explaining about verbs etc without mentioning its benefit? The point that all software is included and integrated, is what differentiates it from all other systems. So it is relevant. The kernel and the hardware related code are essentially different; this allows IBM competitors to create an OS on the bare machine. This is a result of lawsuits relating to mainframe OS clones.

[edit] iSeries redirect

I changed iSeries to redirect here once more. Upon reading through the article carefully (and posting comments on that article's talk page), I found no information that wasn't covered better and more thoroughly in the AS/400 article. The iSeries article was basically just a list of features and a short section on criticisms of the system, which is a good idea but was poorly executed on that page. "iSeries" is nothing more than a rebranding of the AS/400 line. It doesn't suggest any major architectural changes (that is, any changes more significant than the AS/400 has seen in the past; the TIMI is what really makes the AS/400 / iSeries unique), so I can't see any reason why iSeries shouldn't redirect here. Please post your comments if you feel differently. -- uberpenguin 21:11, 2005 Apr 18 (UTC

[edit] Just my opinion

As I am new to using wikipedia, but not the AS/400 or iSeries, I may have not laid out my ideas in the best way. I have tried to be factual and ub-biased, except the misunderstood section and have tried to correct any errors in what I originally thought, but it bothered me that there wasn't an iSeries entry. I am aware that iSeries is just a rename of AS/400 and most people who have used it still refer to it as AS/400. If you look at the entries for Windows, there are entries for win95, xp, 2000, etc. the argument could be there is no need for more than a single Microsoft entry or Linux entry. I mean the different entries for those operating systems are only different versions as well. In fact it hasn't been OS/400 since V4R5, 5 years ago, i5/OS is now at V5R3.

I don't believe this argument holds up very well. Win9x and WinNT are two VERY distinct OSes; one based on an aged MS-DOS code base, and the other based on Dave Cutler's work in designing the NT kernel and API. Windows 2000 and XP are arguably very similar (their kernel revision numbers are 5.0 and 5.1, respectively), but have different articles because their target is very different (desktop rather than server) and a lot of things were changed to reflect that new target. If you wanted to apply this example to why there should be an iSeries article, you might as well create an article for every revision of OS/400... -- uberpenguin 05:45, 2005 Apr 22 (UTC)

Actaully I started creating the iSeries article, based off the layout of the Windows 2000 article. My feeling was that if someone had a interest or heard about this system somehow, it wouldn't say much if all it did was redirect it to the AS/400 article. Their impression would be "Oh that old system". From a PR stand point the rename, didn't change the system, but there has been substantial additions to its capabilities in the last 5 years. It is why I tried to add a lot of links, so someone could find out more, if they wanted to, not just the TIMI, which is important, but not the only thing which makes iSeries different than other operating systems.

I appreciate your good intentions, but as I stated before, the format left something to be desired and wasn't a very good representation of Wikipedia style and convention. In its last state, the iSeries article really resembled a product datasheet or bullet-point list of features, not a well-fleshed out discussion of the relevance of those features, how they compare with other OSes, etc. Also, this isn't the appropriate place to be endorsing a 'PR stand point.' People who have a bias about 'that old system' aren't necessarily going to be instantly swayed by a fancy new title (I do realize the irony in this, as it's exactly what IBM has done). However, there is a commonly thrown-around and often agonized over editing concept here called NPOV, which basically means that articles should try to be accurate and factual, not supporting one opinion or another. In other words, the iSeries article didn't cover much material that this article does not, but this one follows writing and style conventions better. -- uberpenguin 05:45, 2005 Apr 22 (UTC)

My personal opinion after the last 10 years of working with AS/400/iSeries, as well as the alternatives, is there is no better OS or computer system. The point of the misunderstood system section, if not well done, was to highlight what is positive about this system, which has often been ignored, even by IBM, but usually by people who have never used it, or assume it is only a text only system and GUI's just automatically make alternatives better. My feeling is the iSeries article did have value. I don't consider myself some iSeries expert, just enthusiastic and I would have appreciated any help to make it better, including adding different pictures, but I think over the last couple of weeks I saw one change made by someone else. Whether the article was changed from what I did, I really don't care, but not having an iSeries entry does a disservice to this system and to people who may be interested in finding out more about it. nstelmack

As another long-time user of IBM machines (System/34 on), I do understand what the purpose of the 'Misunderstood system' section was, and do think it's a good idea. However, whenever something like that is included in an article, it is good practice to also include a section of criticisms to counterpoint the praise and try to keep a non-biased tone in the article. I'm not at all against bringing the section back, but I think more should be added to it in the way of valid criticism (most of the criticisms you brought up were trivial, though very common).
Right now, I still don't really see much justification in having an iSeries article simply because there have not been any enormous changes to the system since its rebranding. Of course there have been noteworthy updates to the hardware architecture (which is covered in the IBM POWER article since the AS/400 has been on a more or less microcomputer architecture for a while) and OS/400 itself, but they aren't major enough (in my mind) to merit another article when they could live just as happily here. Thanks for your remarks, and I hope you'll stick around Wikipedia and continue making edits! I'll try to get some other folks to weigh in as well. -- uberpenguin 05:45, 2005 Apr 22 (UTC)

[edit] viewpoints

I think what would be most constructive for Wiki, would be a section or related article that puts in perspective how the AS/400 is radically different from other kinds of computer platforms.

I think there is a split in viewpoint here that is conceptually similar to that of computer security and computer insecurity articles, where one talks about how to achieve good security, while the other talks about in the real world where most people must function with computer systems whose security is absolute crud, and what you can then do about it.

Likewise, with AS/400 iSeries whatever, there are applications and industries for which it is the absolute best, and other areas where it is not a good solution. So a few paragraphs explaining that, followed by the notion that often times a computer solution gets used, that is not the optimal, if the people involved had only known about the larger trade-offs.

As it currently stands, the article talks about what the AS/400 is, not how it fits into a larger computing world. AlMac|(talk) 19:25, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

In the passage: It also supports Unix-like file directories, industry-leading support for Java, client-server technologies and a native Apache web server, for "modern" and GUI-style applications. can we remove the apostrophe please? Also I think the wording "industry-leading" is not suitable for an encyclopedia. It's nothing but a personal opinion. Tnx

[edit] first 64 bit?

The Alpha was introduced in 1992. How is AS/400 "in 1995 was first to employ a 64-bit processor and operating system."?

And the MIPS R4000 was introduced in 1991 (I think; it could have been 1990)... Hmm... I've never noticed this in the article before; it indeed seems spurious. Let me do some research and I'll change it. -- uberpenguin 02:02, 2005 May 28 (UTC)
The alpha was NOT both 64-bit processor, 64-bit OS, and 64-bit software applications, all at the same time. AlMac|(talk) 19:14, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


I'm going to need some clarification on this discrepancy. There's a lot of water between 1992 and 1995. If the Alpha didn't have 64 bit across the board out of the gate, it wasn't long after. It certainly didn't take them 3 years. Can someone firm up the details on this? (posted by 24.83.203.165 )

I was around when this was going on. Now in some areas of computing, stuff comes out pretty fast, while in other areas, deployment does in fact take several years between releases of different things & there's various reasons for this.

  • Obviously various companies thought various 64 bit things were important to get developed and to marketplace, so we end up with who's the first to have a 64 bit operating system that runs on a particular kind of computer, but the hardware has to be ready for it, ether first, or at same time release.
    • Likewise application software that runs 64 bit programs on 64 bit operating system on 64 bit hardware, needs to either have the 64 bit OS in place in advance, or at same time release, and that's what IBM did with their 64 bit. They developed the hardware, but did not release it. They developed the OS to run on that hardware, but did not release it. They contracted with thousands of software houses to develop upgrades to use the new 64 bit, which IBM called RISC to replace the previous which was called CISC, then they had a big marketing splash to tell the world of people interested in IBM computer stuff that here was this 64 bit hardware, with 64 bit OS, with thousands of applications to run on it.
    • Other companies came out with the parts piecemeal, because their 3rd party service companies are less integrated than the IBM business partner market.
  • Then there is the concept of maximizing revenue from existing technology before releasing something that will wipe out your own market. I understand that IBM has perfected 128 bit ... the hardware, the OS needs, what can be done with the software, but they deliberately not releasing it until they soak their market for what it will deliver on 64 bit.

AlMac|(talk) 15:10, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

The Alpha most certainly did have 64 bits "across the board" at introduction. If you wanted to compile programs that weren't "64-bit clean", you had to give special compiler options that resulted in less efficient code but used 32-bit pointers. But the Alpha missed being the first 64-bit computer by at least 30 years. The IBM 7030 Data Processing System (also known as Stretch) was a full 64-bit system, and was introduced in 1961. --Brouhaha 06:01, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] naming

I disagree with User:Uberpenguin on server vs. mini-computer since there has been an evolution of general usage of terminology within IBM and within the larger computing world.

Once upon a time, the precursors to AS/400 were in fact mini-computers, then IBM provided the terminology of midrange computer which meant more powerful than a mini, but less powerful than a mainframe, but we found this terminology darn few places outside of the IBM world.

At the time of the change in naming from AS/400 to iSeries, IBM used eServer for the naming of the 4 categories of computers, of which iSeries was one category ... the others being new name for mainframe S/390, scientific RS/6000, and what is now the xSeries.

I think best terminology here is to emphasize that the AS/400 is like multiple computers in one box ... you can choose just one, or on one platform have many different OS & server technologies, whether using different LPAR or being on an older model of AS/400 which supported M36 objects.

I think that to label this as a mini computer is to call it something a lot smaller and less powerful than it really is, while server is in fact the terminology of the computer world today, where the AS/400 can replace a server farm, because it is like a super-server, except that terminology is not in widespread usage. AlMac|(talk) 19:14, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] screenshot

this screenshot, showing debian running on some of the 1000 supported architectures, is rather irrelevant to as/400. I'd suggest putting some pic of the outside of a typical as/400 there. I mean like hardware, not software. sorry, I don't have one.

[edit] Fit for ordinary consumers?

At the science ref desk someone spoke of the superiority of AS/400 (when it comes to safety). So I looked it up to see if it is a viable option for an ordinary consumer. But I see no information on that. As far as prices go, I only see the 9000 vs 2 million $ (assuming USD) comparison. Does the cheapest one cost 9000 USD? DirkvdM 10:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Speaking as a person with over a decade experience working on a mid-sized AS/400 (cost under $50,000.00), in my opinion, the AS/400 is not appropriate for the kinds of applications desired by an ordinary consumer, nor is it appropriate for science applications. The AS/400, rebranded as iSeries for integrated business, is scaled to all sizes of businesses from the mom and pop up to the Fortune 500, or whatever the multi-national equivalent is in other nations, and alwo can be used by government agencies. For science applications, IBM's answer is the RS/6000, rebranded as I forget .... basically All of IBM's computers were rebranded as eServers with a line for each kind, in which the xSeries is what is aimed at the consumer market. For example, you can buy an ISP in a box, which does all the stuff a consumer might want from what people normally associate with being an ISP ASP OSP what have you. But that IBM line is quite different from the AS/400. User:AlMac|(talk) 09:16, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the info. You might add this to the article. I won't because it'd be second hand info coming from me. DirkvdM 09:43, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Quite. Even on an architectural level, AS/400 hardware has always been designed for bandwidth moving (transaction processing), not number crunching. I have seen 400s used successfully in several small business account and transaction processing related tasks, but never for personal or "ordinary consumer" usage. -- uberpenguin 16:34, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I added a bit of text on this at the end of the first paragraph. We will see how it holds up. User:AlMac|(talk) 04:55, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major rewrite

This article badly needs a major rewrite. At the moment, it's a "garbage bag" of disconnect factlets blended together like a pizza. How about some structure, people? Kelly Martin (talk) 05:38, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

A brief look at the history of activity on this article ought to let you know how likely such a rewrite is to occur. -- uberpenguin 06:00, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I dunno, I might get ambitious. I'd also like to get a little more in about the AS/400's relationship to System/38, and the fact that OS/400 V3R6 and later are 100 percent pure C++ down to bare metal in the emulator layer. (I vass dere, I helped.) --- Charlie (Colorado) 01:22, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] East or West, COBOL is best!

>It is not a suitable platform for scientific number crunching or consumer applications.

That depends on where you are located on the map. In the former communist block a lot of big AS400 were purchased between 1989-1994 (until the end of COCOM restrictions), because you could buy 4x as big mips-power in AS400 box compared to unix boxes, as americans thought as400 platform is no good for math (industrial and weapons design obviously). But it was used by many companies for number crunching in the east, illegally obtained Fortran/400 compiler was very popular. Some of them liked the platform for reliability and cheap maintenance so much that they got new black-box AS400es for upgrade when the time to upgrade arrived, instead of some Unix box. 195.70.32.136 18:27, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Restructure

Per the request at the Wikiwork Brigade, I've restructured this articles as best I can. I've preserved as much of the original text as possible, reorganising the existing content. Some of this could do with a rewrite, especially to reduce some of the technical talk which can be confusing even to the computer-literate. I did remove the following text, because it seemed like it had been cut from a press release and was unsourced:

The AS/400 is well suited to a broad range of business, non-profit, and government applications, including back office, manufacturing, retail wholesale transportation, database management, being an ISP. IBM claims superior total cost of ownership due to high system availability, which averages 99.98% uptime, and lower costs of administration and maintenance, when compared to Unix, Linux and Microsoft-based implementations.

If someone can find a source for this (particularly IBM's claim of superior uptime) it would be good to add back into the article. --bainer (talk) 01:23, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] is this acurate?

I know of so many companies using some very old, dos like software - and they call it the IBM AS/400


?POV I'm reading through the comments; it sounds like an ad. My experience with the AS/400 is that it's a clunky dinosaur. What's up.

The article is mostly accurate. What's your actual experience on the AS/400? Is it actually programming for it and administering it, or is it just using some app that your company uses? It isn't wise to dismiss a system just because of inexperience or because its different from what you're accustomed to. There is nothing in common between OS/400 and DOS except that they both use text-based user interfaces (even then, OS/400 has a consistant menu and dialogue system which DOSes do not). -- uberpenguin @ 2006-07-27 20:42Z

1988. Says it all really - what on earth is this article all about? I got a joke through with AS/400 on it and came here hoping for some enlightenment - who is using this ting at the moment -

What is this article about? This line of computers.
Who's using it? These people are using it. Guy Harris 00:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Huh? The Intel 80386, which more or less introduced the first form of what we know as 32-bit x86, came around in 1986. Windows NT was introduced in 1993. The modern incarnations of both those technologies are obviously more capable and advanced than their ancestors. Anyway, Guy answered your questions. -- uberpenguin @ 2006-07-28 02:48Z
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