Talk:Ian Paisley

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Discussion Archive 1

[edit] Sean Lemass

I removed the following a former IRA member during the Anglo-Irish war from the description of Sean Lemass.

1. It was 40 years earlier and was totally irrelevant to his role as Taoiseach of the Republic of Ireland. O'Neill didn't meet Lemass because Lemass was once in the IRA (forty years earlier), he met him because he was prime minister;
2. Almost the entire political elite of the Republic in the era 1920s-1960s had some association with the IRA in the 1920s. That sort of line in the content is as pointless as calling Pope John Paul II a former priest.
3. Lemass's links with the IRA in the 1920s are covered in his page which is linked to the line.

The user who put it in under a marginally different wording has been doing this for ages, adding in his 'chip on his shoulder' comments that are totally irrelevant in the context where he puts them in, he using facts in contexts that POV something. FearÉIREANN 13:28, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It may have been three years ago, but you were wrong to make that edit. The fact that Lemass was once an IRA man explains why Paisley was angry with O'Neil. Thus it is relevant to include it in an article about Iain Paisley and his actions. Without his side of the story, it would be impossible to have a fully balanced view on the merits of his actions.

I will restore the point unless anyone has any better objections.

Quality control 04:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Ian Paisley may and probably has already retired from the European Parliament, I refer you to the BBC article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/3411419.stm

He has, but at the time of the original post (2003!!) he had not. --Kiand 18:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MEP, MP, MLA

We don't include post-nominals denoting membership of legislative bodies. Proteus (Talk) 12:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, OK. Just checked Tony Blair. I was surprised at that. Thanks. Aaron McDaid (talk - contribs) 12:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ian Paisley on the Popes

Was he (or IP Jr) approached by the "rentaquote mob" journalists for his comments on the transition from John Paul II to Benedict XVI - or is it that the general UK media do not report on him? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.44.143.26 (talk • contribs) on 17:31, 18 September 2006.

On Pope John Paul II's death he said "We can understand how Roman Catholics feel at the death of the Pope and we would want in no way to interfere with their expression of sorrow and grief at this time." [2].

Are the BBC "rentaquote mob" journalists ? :-) Aaron McDaid (talk - contribs) 21:17, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I notice on that page that the BBC has captioned his photograph "Ian Paisley sympathised with Catholics over the Pope", but actually he did nothing of the sort. "We would want in no way to interfere with their expression of sorrow and grief at this time" is in fact a terribly ambiguous statement -- does it mean "we sympathize with their grief and respect their right to express it", or does it mean "we're positively reveling in their grief and don't want to do anything to reduce it"? —Angr 22:01, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Come on Angr, you're being awfully cynical aren't you? Personally, I believe that if you take these comments at face value they amount to cautious sympathy. You of course are entitled to your opinion, but don't try to read too much into what he says. Love him or loathe him (he can be blunt at times) he is honest. Always, though, he says what he means and he means what he says. - Paddyman1989 16:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

You're joking right Paddyman, that psycho Paisley is nothing but a bag of anti-catholic hate.83.70.236.106 15:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

In response to the "Anti-catholic hate" point, lets just clarify. Ian Paisley does not hate Roman Catholics. He does however despise the RC Church. Paddyman1989 12:29, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

It´s also worth indicating that he said: "We need to learn that everyone on earth no matter what position he holds or the claims he makes or the support he has must come to death and eternity..." We know what he was getting at there.

We do, yes. He was getting at the fact that everyone will die, himself included. Please note that he did not say "This person will go to hell" - he merely stated that all will die. Polititians and world leaders are not excepted. Paddyman1989 12:29, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Paisley is also supposed to have heckled the Pope (John Paul II), when the Pope addressed the European Parliament some years ago. That behaviour is not the mark of someone tolerant of Roman Catholicism.

[edit] In demand

I removed the line "in demand" from the phrase "in demand lecturer" as it is a POV Template:Steve 19:55, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Rentaquote mob journalists - 'slightly useful negative term'

And anything on Benedict's recent remarks? (The correct answer from the Muslim side would have been to list out some of the Islamic achievements at the time the remark originated - buildings, science, Omar Khayam, Ibn Battitu (sp - the traveller) etc

[edit] Belfast Agreement

In the section entitled "Belfast Agreement" there is a whole chunk of text about Denis Donaldson and allegations of spying. I fail to see what this has got to do with the life of Ian Paisley. I think even the DUP only gets one mention and none at all for its leader. Would this be better placed somewhere else?

[edit] Longest serving

Is he the longest-serving party leader in history?

I doubt it. Fidel Castro is probably there at the moment. If you mean in the UK, I think 'Screaming Lord Sutch' claimed a leadership of the same order of years but that was based on backdating the Monster Raving Loony Party (founded 1983) to his 1960s contests. Sam Blacketer 00:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Auto Peer Review

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[edit] Third Force

Could someone look at the above article, I am not familiar with the subject, but it seems ... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.12.249.63 (talk) 13:38, 18 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Ambiguity

Quote: "...as the old Ulster Protestant Association had done after partition in 1920, often by organising assassination missions into Catholic areas of Belfast..." Does this mean that Paisley was organsing assassinatin missions? Personally, I doubt it, but the sentence is ambiguous. Do the assassination missions relate to the meetings of the UPA in the 20s or the later meetings associated with Paisley, or both? Rob Burbidge 10:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I've added a clarifyme tag; I'm not used to Wikipedia in all its glory so please excuse if that's the wrong thing in this context. Rob Burbidge 11:35, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

I found this in the list: My Father and Mother have 2 penis' (apostrophe as written). Is this for real, or vandalism? Notreallydavid 10:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Sneaky vandalism, I've removed it. A lot of the entries in the Bibliography seem a bit dodgy, probably needs checking. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 10:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll look in the British Library Catalogue tonight and tag anything not in there (and add ISBNs) Weggie 10:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Olive Oil

In 1987 the European Parliament were debating the need to reduce agricultural subsidies, just to appease the Americans in World Trade Organization. Olive oil was being discussed. The northern Europeans wanted to end the subsidies, even though they resented the Americans. The Southern Europeans wanted to keep the subsidies, even though they wanted to appease the Americans. Mary Banotti, an Irish MEP made a novel proposal since olive oil is good for your heart, it should be a heath subsidy rather than an agriculture subsidy. This satisfied most northerners and the southerners were positively ecstatic. However, Mary had opened her speech in the Irish language and then continued Italian. Apparently the reverend doctor was of the opinion that she was speaking in Irish, which wasn’t an official language of the EU at the time. He shouted and roared, demanding that she be silenced. He ignored calls to resume his seat and use Headphones. Then he started to walk towards her. Some Spanish and Greek MEPs gallantly but foolishly stood in his path. He cast them aside. It took a small army of Police to restrain big Ian and evict him from the chamber.

http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=eu3

Is this true?, if it is it deserves to be put in the trivia section.

[edit] St Andrews Agreement

I've removed the following uncited statement from the above-named section:

Paisley's apparent openness to sharing power with Sinn Féin resulted in vocal opposition among both members of the DUP and of his church.

It had been marked with some kind of "citation needed" tag. In general, such tags should probably be avoided on uncited statements related to current events, and in any case they seriously degrade the readability of the text. It is better to remove an incited statement to the talk page (as I do here) until a citation is found. --Tony Sidaway 03:15, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Founding of the Free Presbyterian Church

Removed these two:

Paisley claimed that this was because many within the Presbyterian Church hierarchy rejected the preaching of the Gospel. Presbyterians have tended to argue it was blocked because he was not a member of the Presbyterian Church in Ireland (the largest Protestant denomination in Northern Ireland) and in contravention of their code.

Again they had both been tagged. They can be restored if supported by reliable sources. --Tony Sidaway 03:29, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I've also removed two uncited statements from "Membership of Loyal Orders".

There are still nearly 30 "citation needed" tags in the article.

This isn't good enough. Editors should take note of Wikipedia policy, which is that an uncited statement may be removed.

It is especially important in biographical articles that only verifiable statements should be included.--Tony Sidaway 03:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 'Ulster Says No'

In the description of the reaction to the Anglo-Irish agreement, I've removed the following unreferenced statement:

Alleged policemen, who wore masks to hide their identities, told a television interviewer they would refuse to enforce any aspect of the Agreement.

This does sound significant, but I don't think it'll be easy to find a citation for it. It's likely to hang around uncited for ages so after a brief attempt to find a supporting reference I'm removing it here for the time being. --Tony Sidaway 17:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ulster Resistance

I don't think there's any doubt that Paisley addressed the founding meeting of the Ulster Resistance in 1986. Contemporary online sources for this event are lacking, however. Would it be in order to reference the entry at http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/organ/uorgan.htm until a more suitable reference is found for this event? --Tony Sidaway 18:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

On reflection I've decided to remove the whole section to this page for now. The DUP leadership's involvement in the formation of Ulster Resistance and the subsequent debacle of the arrests in Paris is a very important, perhaps pivotal event in the history of the troubles and Ian Paisley's career. However it's in need of solid references, and because it's beyond the reach of online sources I'll have to toddle down to the British Library and get some solid ones from the newspaper archives and history books.

A Loyalist organisation was formed on 10 November 1986 by Paisley, Peter Robinson and Ivan Foster. The initial aim of Ulster Resistance was to bring an end to the Anglo-Irish Agreement. Following a rally in the Ulster Hall in Belfast, other rallies were held in towns across Northern Ireland. The group was organised in nine 'battalions' across Northern Ireland and members wore a red beret. In November 1988 there was an arms find in County Armagh and the subsequent arrest of a former DUP election candidate brought accusations of links between DUP politicians and armed paramilitary groups. Paisley at this time appealed to the majority to cease any violent struggle. The DUP claimed that party links with the organisation had ended in 1987. Three members of Ulster Resistance were arrested in April 1989 in Paris along with a South African diplomat and an American arms dealer. It is alleged by some nationalist groups that the weapons imported from the Lebanon were divided between the Ulster Defence Association (UDA), the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) and Ulster Resistance.

So I'm pulling it for now. --Tony Sidaway 20:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Logo as image for lead?

After this edit, I got a couple of notes about it. I don't know that the license question is very interesting in this case, and if someone would like to write a Wikipedia:Fair use rationale for the logo for this article, that's fine, but I do think that it is an odd editorial choice to substitute a party logo for a picture of the person. Using a logo as the focal image for the lead of a biography seems to suggest that Wikipedia is making a subtle, but complicated statement about the relationship between people and groups. Before we start adding these things everywhere, I think that we might want to spend a little time teasing out just what we're saying when we do it. "This is this person's political affiliation" is substantially a different visual statement than "This is this person's face." Will we do this with sports team logos for athletes? Company logos for businessmen? Maybe we are already, and I've missed it so far. There's something different going on when we say "This person belongs to this political party" and when we say "We identify this person by their party logo." There's also a selfish concern here; we tend to get free images donated when people realise that we are missing one. If it become's Wikipedia's house style to fill up the space with a logo instead, we lose that opportunity. Jkelly 23:06, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Kelly - look at a British ballot paper if you want to see the relationship between the logo and the person. The logo is a defined representation of the politicians political affiliation. The situation is very different to other countries, notably the US where under a two party system you get fairly obvious choices of canididates. Also, in general terms, the trouble is that it is virtually impossible to get a photo onto Wiki for a living person. Everytime I've tried using freely available images these are deleted with little explanation. I am perfectly willing to source these etc. Could you give me a heads up on the best way to do this or where and under what circumstances these can be sourced. I'm finding this deletion attitude with little explanation very unhelpful and it's dispiriting that no-one will help. Weggie 10:40, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

What deletion attitue look at the Licensing on the image it is {{logo}} which makes it fair use and cannot be used as placeholders for every member of that party who do not have images. --Barry O'Brien entretien 13:19, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

It would be an odd sort of party logo that couldn't be used on the party leader's Wikipedia article. But I do think we need a good free image of Ian Paisley. --Tony Sidaway 11:17, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe the DUP press office could help with this? Weggie 11:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Alternatively there seem to be two or three pictures on flickr showing Paisley at demonstrations. Perhaps the owners of these pictures would consider releasing them under a free license. --Tony Sidaway 15:40, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Surely it would be 'fair use' to take a photo from an official site on the web. (the flicker idea is a good one) but I would like to see photos for all the biogs I've worked on (UUP/SDLP/DUP/Alliance) Weggie 15:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Foundation policy is that no Wikimedia project can use fair use pictures where a free one is available. The free alternative hasn't yet been exhausted. --Tony Sidaway 16:29, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Opener

Things have changed quite a lot recently, and I think it's time the opener caught up. This is my effort:

Ian Richard Kyle Paisley (born: 6 April 1926) styled The Revd and Rt Hon. Ian Paisley MP MLA, also known as Dr Ian Paisley, is a senior politician and church leader in Northern Ireland. As the leader of the largest party in the elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly, he is due to take up office as the First Minister of Northern Ireland on May 8, 2007.

He is a founding member of and current Moderator of the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster while also Leader of the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP). Paisley has been Member of Parliament for the constituency of North Antrim since 1970, and is also a member of the Northern Ireland Assembly for the same constituency.

The interior should also contain something about the recent changes. I suggest a reference to Paisley and McGuinness asking for the keys to Stormont Castle. See "DUP and Sinn Féin ask Hain for keys to Stormont", The Guardian, April 2, 2007.

--Tony Sidaway 11:56, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

As there seemed to be no objection to that, I've gone ahead and changed the opener as suggested. --Tony Sidaway 15:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)