User talk:IAF

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[edit] Devanagari problems

Hello, please read this. Thank you. GizzaChat © 08:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hi

Hi, I see that you're intrested in Indian history and religion. If you take a look in hereyou'll see that we have a very active neo buddhist on our hands, who would like to malign Hinduism every chance he gets. Please vote accordingly here, I'll work on most of his articles to make them neutral and according to wikipedia policy as well. Best Regards. Freedom skies 12:58, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question

You struck out my request for a citation for the following statement: "Followers of the Jain and Sikh faiths are considered broader Hindus according to the social-fabric of India.", with the edit comment "There is no need of a citation for that fact". The reason I asked for a citation is that the statement would be considered controversial by some members of those faiths. Also the term "social-fabric" is a little vague in this context; a citation indicating where this term is used and to what degree the opinion stated in the sentence is a reflection of the debate on the subject is called for. Please specify why you think this is not a problem, or else reintroduce the cn tag. Thank you. Hornplease 15:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

There is no need for a citation. Come to India, and witness on your own. There is no need to provide a URL/citation for each and every reference as some facts are very well known (like Eiffel tower is in Paris). 'Social-Fabric' means relationships between various communities--the fabric is the same, but at various parts there are different designs.IAF
Thank you for your reply. However well-known the facts, I am afraid that when they are contested by some, as these facts will be, a citation is expected under WP:V. Otherwise anyone who disagrees with your view will be able to remove the statement without thinking twice. Hornplease 17:47, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi! I'm still waiting on a reply to this. Or should I assume that you agree, and a citation is needed? Thanks! Hornplease 07:36, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Hornplease you are absolutely right. Jainism and Buddhism were never a part of Hinduism. Do come to India and ask any Jain or Buddhist. Its a fact. --Anishshah19 11:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Only clerics say that. At Ganesh festival, navratri my famiity has had Jains worshipping at my home for may years. Turn on some Dharmic TV channels and you'll find Jain munis chanting on show and Sudhanshu, Asaram in other shows.

Actually nowadays there has been an acute identity crisis what with the court cases, and all.

Jainism and Buddhism have a liturgy that is in Sanskrit---which was originally not just used, but developed for composing the RV, AV, YV and the SV. Stuff like Moksha and rebirth occurs in the Vedanta first and then simply rephrased by the Buddha and Jain tirthankars later on. Forget Jains, even within Hinduism also there are many protestant groups like the Arya-Samajis (who don't worship idols or other gods & goddesses). Indian_Air_Force(IAF)

Broadmindedness of Jains should not be taken otherwise. One of my Hindu friend regularly goes to Hajiali Dargha. Does it make Hinduism a Part of Islam. This would be a ridiculious conclusion, which unfortunately you are hell bent on making. I suggest you go thru the views of Amartya Sen also -

The second part of Amartya Sens interview to Arthur J Pais. You have argued in your new book against Samuel Huntington's definition of Indian civilization as a Hindu civilization. But many Indians think of the country as a Hindu country, in terms of religion and culture. Why do you call such thoughts politically combustive and descriptively flawed? Amartya Sen : "India has had a phenomenally rich and immensely diverse history, and any unifocal interpretation of that history in purely Hindu terms cannot but miss out a lot of India's traditions. Aside from religious differences, we have also had a long tradition of scepticism, yielding among other approaches agnosticism and even atheism. Indeed, going back all the way to the Rig Veda (circa 1500 BC), we can find in it the Song of Creation, which questions the omnipotence and omniscience of God, and perhaps even the existence of any entity like God. Buddhism and Jainism too posed quite a few challenges to Hinduism, and while Jainism survives today, Buddhism -- it is good to remember this -- was the dominant religion in India for around a thousand years. Among other important features, Buddha maintained an agnostic position, and saw the question of God to be not only hard to resolve but also as being quite unnecessary to resolve for moral thinking. It is often not recognised that Buddhism is the only world religion that does not invoke God for its theory of good behaviour. India has always had room for different religions, and apart from indigenous development of non-Hindu religions (Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism), the country has been tolerant and welcoming to people from different religions immigrating to India. Jews arrived in India from the first century, Christians from the fourth century, followed by Parsis from Persia in the seventh century, and Muslim Arab traders in the eighth. Indian culture has benefited greatly from the diversity that the various religions have produced. Over the last two decades, the idea that Indian civilization is a Hindu civilization has gained some ground. It has also led to considerable political intolerance, playing up Hindu-Muslim conflicts rather than their constructive interactions. This has also gone with some targeting of minority groups, for example in Mumbai in the early 1990s and in Gujarat in 2002. That is why I think that to understand India as a Hindu country is not only a big descriptive mistake, it is also politically nasty. It is used to ignite the ferocity of an exclusive and allegedly dominant identity of the Hindus, and to undermine the common identity that all Indians can share." Those interested may read the rest of the article at the following link :- http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/aug/21inter.htm --Anishshah19 06:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your signature

You may want to know that your signature, instead of linking to YOUR userpage links to the user page of a banned user. After I post this comment, you can see the HTML code for signature's that work. You should change all the "Bakasuprman" and "Bakaman" to "IAF" and play around with the bold, and color things.Bakaman Bakatalk 03:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IPKF

If you have an issue with the IPKF article, especially the human rights violation section, please provide references that can suggest that these are not true. However, please do not delete the section, as the claims themselves have been referenced to reputable publications. Such actions are considered vandalism. Rueben lys 13:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Why do want to include LTTE propaganda ?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by IAF (talk).

It is not propaganda at all.There are reputable publications that have documented the claims that have been made in the article.If you wish to provide an opposing view point,please provide a verifiable account that says so. Your post makes it clear that you are editing (deleting) with a POV issue,which makes it count as vandalism. You are welcome to forth your views, but please do not delete those of others, especially when these are verifiable facts. Wikipedia is not the place to settle disputes, no matter how strongly you feel about it. It is a place for facts. Hope you will contribute with your views which will be just as much appreciated.Rueben lys 21:58, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Please note that deleting well-sourced information from an article without consensus is considered vandalism and you may be blocked for doing so. Please read WP:NPOV before making any further edits. Thanks. --Yamla 15:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IAF to rueben_lys and reply

Your post makes it clear that you want to add anti-IPKF POV into the IPKF article (no matter how "well" sourced). I can't include jehadi philosophy and the sorrow-laden story of Osama bin Laden into the 9/11 article can I ?

All deletion is not vandalism (no matter how well referenced), especially if it is done to remove off-topic matter and PoV like yours. However, wanton stuffing of unrelated matter like you have done can be counted as vandalism. Indian Air Force (IAF)

My post does not make clear anything because I am asking you not to delete sections of the article that does not agree with your POV. Deletion of well referenced facts for the purpose of preventing it from coming into the reader's view (as you're trying to do) is vandalism. And it is not for you to decide what philosophy gets included because you do not own the article.

Please think, your edits can be compared to somebody trying to edit US army human rights abuse in Iraq. No matter how much it has been proven or not, these are things for the reader to judge based on how verfiable they are. If you feel these are overtly POV, add the Neutrality disputed Tag (:{{NPOV}}). Otherwise you are making bad faith edits. The allegations of Human rights abuse by the IPKF are not wanton or off-topic as you allege, they are one of the many parts of the break down of the Indo-Srilankan-LTTE accord. Also, you may have come under the impression that I am promoting an anti-IPKF, or anti-India POV, but I have not made any major contributions to the IPKF page, so you are chatting rubbish there. I have started and made significant contributions to Operation Poomalai and The Jaffna University Helidrop, which were operations mounted by the Indian Air Force, and the IPKF respectively, with the intentions of putting forth both a balanced factual description of the Indian forces in Srilanka (who I am pretty proud of, being Indian myself) . I don't know a lot about the IPKF, but I haven't made any bad faith or POV edits because I also respect those from both sides who died during the Indian intervention believeing that they died for the right cause (even the Tamil Tigers, who fought the IPKF thinking India was going to occupy their land). Also, I am sure you will see from my contributions, that I have started a lot of articles on the Indian armed forces (Especially those during the 1971 War), but with a factual description in mind and not POVs, so please do not accuse me of pushing an anti-India POV. Hope you will understand my point. Rueben lys 14:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC) Lastly,

I have to butt in into your discussion - I have changed the title of the section to "Alleged". Of the sources given, I find only the Indian Express source credible enough. And even that talks about the 'Massacre' being hte result of an earlier ambush by the LTTE on IPKF. The Tamilnet source is not a neutral source as it is a site heavily biased in favour of the LTTE. A more balanced view of the events can be found on this site. http://www.uthr.org/ - Please check it out jaiiaf 15:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Jai, and for the last time IAF, I have not made any contribution to this effing article, so I can't be introducing any PoVs by Common Sense!!!, so stop ranting about my PoV, I don't have a PoV!!! if I did, it would be the same as yours!!! And no!!!, massacres of Tamils by the Sinala are not relevant!!! but the allegations of massacres by the IPKF are issues that concerns the IPKF and the Indian intervention in Srilanka. Look at the edit that jaiiaf has done, that's how you introduce NPOV, not by blanket deletion of anything that doesn't make you happy. I introduced an NPOV tag sometime ago, and somebody removed it. But the wayforward is not deletion, but to say that the facts and POVs are disputed!!!. Otherwise it will keep getting reverted because people automatically assume you're making bad faith edits!!! And stop accusing me of introducing POV when I haven't written anything in it, makes you look like school kid arguing in playground!!!.Rueben lys 16:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Reuben, If I may add, a closer look reveals that even the "Asian Tribune" is not a neutral source. So out of the 'three' massacres - only the Indian Express report has some scope. And it does not take into account that the patrol was ambushed and six Sikh soldiers lost their lives. You can query the Indian Army Official site for Op Pawan and filter the dates to 2 August 89 for the names. The main problem with the IPKF article is there is very little meat about the IPKF operations. One can write pages and pages on it but the fighting merely covered by two paras. I suggest rather than fighting over the atrocities, we focus on building the operations part of it. jaiiaf 00:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you on that count jai, and certainly the article on IPKF should say more about the organisation and operations. I have found some stuff in bharat-rakshak and other sites which can be used. But just deleting the disputed section outright suggest bad faith edits and are always reverted, which what's been happening here. Also, the way forward is to add NPOV tags and to edit the article towards NPOV instead of outright deletion as IAF has done. I think the problem is IAF assumed I have a PoV to promote, which I don't. Hope that clears things out IAF.Rueben lys 16:18, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
If you were not a moronic idiot, I would carry on this conversation, but as is blatantly clear, you not only lack intelligence even of a fish, but you are also a loud mouthed brainless twit. Reversion is not counted as contribution, and I reverted your edits for the reasons I have tried through all of the above paras to hammer into your matterless hollow brain. Your edits made it look like you were making bad faith edits (which I now do actually do think you are). To make an article NPOV, you are supposed to include both sides of the story. So if the LTTE alleges something, you say that the LTTE alleges this, instead of blanking it out. You, me, LTTE,the IPKF or even President Bush does not own the article, so there can't be any question of allowing LTTEs view point. If you think that's propaganda, go and say so in the IPKF page. But as a combatant, the LTTE is allowed to have it's view point, you are welcome to add LTTE atrocities against the IPKF. As I said before, the allegations of atrocities were real allegations and one of the key reasons why the Indo-Srilankan accord broke down. But of course, you don't listen to rhyme or reason, and have come to the moronic conclusion that I have some kinda anti-IPKF POV. So instead of helping any of us guys (eg, me or jaiiaf) who are actually writing about the IPKFs military roles and operations, you can only slag us off and try to pretend you know so much about this topic, which obviously are totally ignirant about. I do not wish to carry on this conversation, it only makes me sad that people like proudly trumpet your Indianness and then act like complete idiots. Good luck with your edits.15:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe the above un-signed comments are of Rueben lys.

Well don't know why so much of anguish? This will be less helpful and more problem inviting. Stay cool. swadhyayee 01:29, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

I see no harm in placing of Ayyavazhi in the article. Ayyavazhi is a dharmic faith and like paths within Hinduism (consider Vedanta) it can be described as a school with emphasised features and hence deserves a mention.

If someone was to place Vedanta as a dharmic school I would'nt object to it. Hinduism has several such schools and it only mentions the distinct nature of the faith within Hinduism.

My idea, no harm in letting it stay. It does'nt mean that Ayyavazhi is seperate, it just means that it is a Dharmic faith, within or outside of Hinduism is described in the Ayyavazhi article. In the Dharmic religions article, all faiths of dharmic origin, within or outside Hinduism deserve a mention.

Freedom skies (send a message to Freedom skies) 18:10, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I placed a citation on the Dharmic religions page, it has the constituion of India accepting them as Hindus. Please do take a look at the article. Relax, the more people know about Ayyavazhi the more they'll know the truth.

Freedom skies (send a message to Freedom skies) 22:36, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hinduism

Links for Wikipedians interested in Hindu content

--D-Boy 06:23, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AIT

IAF, we have two articles. One refers to historical and polemical issues; one refers to actual theories of Indo-Aryan migrations/invasions. The latter is called Indo-Aryan migration. The point is that "Aryan Invasion Theory" is a phrase used almost exclusively by polemicists in the context of modern Indian nationalist and anti-Imperialist culture. Historians and linguists do not typically use this term in a scholarly context, so the discussion of the term is closely tied to political polemics - using the word "political" in a broad sense. I'm not really bothered which version of the intro is used, but a revert war just gets in the way of other improvements that might be made. A compromise version might be desirable. Please discuss on the Talk page. Paul B 15:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I see your edits to Hinduism being reverted.

I see your edits to Hinduism being reverted. You have facts, could you not put your proposed inclusions on talk page. The article is almost complete, is facing size problem and being reviewed for improving. Your co-operation to discuss your proposals would be helpful. Thanks and Good Luck. swadhyayee 01:13, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tusi khush raho, Papaji.

Pl. check Hinduism and it's talk page. swadhyayee 10:36, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Papaji, Mennu doubt hai

Papaji, Mennu doubt hai, tusi "Indian Air Force" naa rakh shakte ho ya nahin? Pl. bear with me, I am bringing it to the attn. of Administrator's board as I do not want you to stop using it once your contributions increase.

swadhyayee 10:43, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] With due apology, for your information.

User:IAF, without bad intentions is using Indian Air Force as his user name. I am not aware of the policy, I request that due notice be given to him and the word "Indian Air Force" be removed from everywhere if the usage is contrary to the policy. swadhyayee 10:50, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard"

Of course I am an admin, but I want to wait and see first if IAF took the changes that I suggested. If he didn't, it would be pointless to change them if I know more are showing up. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 21:30, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

You mean to say that he will be allowed to use Indian Air Force as his signature if he does not stop and remove earlier signatures? And I couldn't understand your view that there are many air force organisations that go by "IAF". Indian Air Force is only one organisation of Indian Govt. Defence. swadhyayee 02:16, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I think what is more likely is that he will be blocked from editing if he refuses to change his signature, but at least until the matter is disposed there is no special urgency in replacing the old signatures. —Centrx→talk • 02:23, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I told this user already on how he can change his signature. He has to go to the preferences. having IAF as a username is fine, but the Indian Air Force name in his signature has to go. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 19:55, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Will you kindly?

Many thanks for stopping use of "Indian Air Force" from your signature. Your actions are of value to me. I do not know, whether you were able to remove these words from your past signatures or not.

Will you kindly add date and time in your comments? I think, this you can do by selecting sign "~" four times one after another without leaving space in between. You will find tool to select this sign on right hand side below end of this box. swadhyayee 03:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dharmic Religions

Hello IAF, in regards to the Dharmic Religions article and Ayyavazhi my thoughts are as follows:

  • Ayyavazhi is obviously being actively promoted in Wikipedia (which I don't object to as long as it's within reason). I've seen links posted to the main Ayyavazhi page all over Wikipedia, whereas in religious based research outside of Wikipedia I've never even heard the name. See Wikipedia_talk:Hinduism-related_topics_notice_board#Talk:India.2FAyyavazhi and the main Talk:India/Ayyavazhi which are relevant in this instance.
  • In the Dharmic religions article I don't personally believe the Ayyavazhi organisation warrants a whole seperate section alongside other much larger religious organisations such as Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism and Buddhism. Both the International Society for Krishna Consciousness and the Brahma Kumaris for example do not personally claim to be part of Hinduism, and are much larger in influence and size than Ayyavazhi (although they still are much smaller than the larger groups such as Sikhism etc...). For example on Google Ayyavazhi gets only 41,000 hits, compared to 217,000 hits for the BK's and 549,000 for ISKCON These are just two examples! (Sikhism gives 1,800,000 hits) - On the Adherents website I cannot find Ayyavazhi mentioned at all (have done a Google site search). Thus I cannot see a strong argument to single out Ayyavazhi exclusively in the way in which they currently are. Especially as they follow 'dharmic' philosophies at least based some part on the Dharmic tradition of Hinduism.

Hoping to be of help. Best Regards, Gouranga(UK) 12:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Idol-worship

Hi IAF. (The following is mostly copied from the Talk:Paganism page.) The recent addition of "Idol-worship" to the Paganism article is a bit problematic. Because the term is unfortunately negatively weighted by the Judeo-Christian Bible interpretation in Western society, I don't really think it's appropriate or accurately descriptive. I believe this is a translation problem. I would recommend using the more accurate murti worship or perhaps "icon-worship" or "deity-worship" which I believe would be more representative of the meaning being sought after here. I certainly think using the word murti somewhere in the article would be a good idea. Do you have any thoughts on the matter? --Pigmantalk • contribs 18:03, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I am happy that you are not offended. But you are only one of many followers of the Dharmic religions and philosophies. There are many others who are offended. AliaGemma 21:57, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your edit on Sanskit

Please check before making unsourced edits like this. Rokus01 10:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

By the way, this edit refers to a redundancy created by yourself. I will denounce this in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan/Evidence Rokus01 10:20, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] hi

See Sanskrit#Interactions_with_Sino-Tibetan_languages the citation for this is the book "Old Javanese – English Dictionary" by P.J. Zoetmulder. I dont know publisher or anything so perhaps you can find out the other info. also see kawi.Bakaman 16:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Third opinion on Sanskrit

Before you edit you have to mind the opinion of others. Again you reverted, without minding the correction of Athaenara and neglecting the third opinion administrated by bibliomaniac15. Sorry, but this makes me sich and tired. I will take care your disruptive reverting behaviour will be reported. Rokus01 19:51, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reverts to Dharmic religion

Please be more careful in reverting. You reverted a sourced section linking to the Supreme Court case discussed. You also reverted an addition the Jain section saying in your edit summary: "Jainism does NOT predate the Vedas. It is confirmed." The section in question states: "Jains believe that Jainism is a religion predating the Vedas." Whether or not the Jains predate the Vedas, the Jains believe their religion does and it is clearly stated as their POV, not a fact. Thank you. Vassyana 15:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Dharmic religion. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content which gains a consensus among editors. Thank you. You've already made three reverts. Please be cautious. I will not revert any further changes you may make today to comply with the policy myself. Please discuss the issue on the talk page, where I replied to your post. Vassyana 17:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Please look around the many political and religious pages on Wikipedia. It is perfectly appropriate to mention what a group believes, even if that belief is erroneous, provided it is clear that it is a belief of that group. Also, in the future, please do not add comments to user pages. The editor's talk page is the appropriate place for comments and questions for that user.Vassyana 17:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

What consensus was a year ago may have some bearing, but it does not set anything in stone. First, consensus can change. Second, the decision did not exist a year ago. Third, I was simply providing a fair warning that you had reached the revert threshold. Take care. Vassyana 19:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

You have been temporarily blocked for violation of the three-revert rule. Please feel free to return after the block expires, but also please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future.

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Response to your complaint

Legalese 18:16, 20 March 2007 (UTC) Dear IAF, Jossi holds that we should not discuss on his page. Hence, it comes here. Mr. Jossi, please have a look at this talk-page. An editor called Legalese has opened 2 entire sections that are deicated solely for my personal criticism, instead of having anything even slightly to do with the article itself. The sections are, "Be Civil IAF", and "On IAF's response to replying 10 times". I think this guy deserves at least a warning.

- The "civility" that he professes, pertains to not making a Contempt of Court. - - Also, for every edit that I have made in the main article, I have provided a rationale on the talk page. Indian_Air_Force(IAF) - - Legalese 15:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)At the outset, I seek an apology if using some "name" in a sub-title is against wiki ethics or standards. (I confess, my ignorance if there exists any rule against it). - - But, I do not accede to the allegation levelled by IAF in as much as he holds that the 2 sections are "solely for (his) personal criticism". You may please see the entire conversation taking place on that page, and also please note that while I tried to bring to the attention of the editor in question, several notable scholars' opinion, not just being indifferent to them, the editor continues to keep the article in question only as per his own point of view. - - Furthermore, if you see what I actually wanted to point out was the mere fact that the kind of words, the editor in question used, were amounting to an offence of "Contempt" of the Apex Court of a Country. - - If the user in question finds them to be personal attacks, then he is failing to appreciate the whole spirit of all of my submissions made on that page. - - In any case, I submit to you that I do not believe in the "word-play or war", and if the user in question holds them offending, I seek an UNCONDITIONAL APOLOGY. - But at the same time, I stand firm on my point that the user in question is not being a good editor in deed or spirit, by the kind of changes the user is making to the article. It is highly objectionable. - - * I contend that in the first section, yes Legalese makes a valid point that he does majorly include points to support his edits also, but my assertion that the second section ("Be civil IAF") is meant solely for a personal attack. It merely has the cloak of redundant information i.e. which was already posted earlier by Legalese in another section, and its main aim (as the title itself suggests) is to lecture me about what he percieves is "civility". On this, Legalese definitely deserves a warning . - - Again, I may repeat that I have dealt with utmost consternation AND with due respect (while mentioning the Hon'ble SC) my opinion on the judgement which may qualify as Contempt of Court----something which Legalese has not and probably does not even bother to looking on the Talk-page. The purpose of repeatedly levelling baseless charges of Contempt of Court, despite my clarification on the same in the talk-page earlier is beyond my comprehension. - - The charge that I am not being a "good" editor can only be levelled as a matter of opinion only, (which I too can leve back at him) and not as a complaint because Legalese is NOT an admin, has no authority, has had no authority on wikipedia on matters related to the judgement of the quality of articles, and even final arbitration on what constitutes as "good editing" or "Objectionable behaviour". - - His lecture to me on civility (that too publicly on a talk-page and not on my user:page) is itself very appaling to me---who has been contributing to wikipedia since more than a year now. What is even more appaling is his assumption of a role as the Moral Guardian and as someone who discerns the quality of edits. For attempting to accuse me of AND impose the norms of "civility" and that too incongruous on a talk-page of an article and not personally on my own talk-page, Legalese deserves a warning. - - - Again, he talks of a noncoherent discussion on my part when it is apparent (by the date of edits) that he has taken the liberty to open section after section discussing either me, or my edits without replying where I had already given the reasons for my edits in another section. So who is being incoherent ? - - Besides, I never said that I find the "word-war" offending to me on part of Legalese. So an Unconditional Apology on my part does not arise at all. Indian_Air_Force(IAF) - - Legalese 11:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC) Dear Jossi, I am sorry for using so much of space on your talk page, as I do below. I am not too sure where am I am supposed to reply. Do please correct me if an admin's page is not the correct place. - - Response to IAF - 1. “Be Civil IAF” for personal attack? I pointed out, that the kind of language you are using “perceivably” for the judgment of a Court of law, is unsuited, and transgresses the “freedom of expression”. To this, you “clarified” that you intended to use it for some other editor’s arguments and not for the Court’s judgment. Though seemingly, your own original statement defeats such explanation (to quote you, you said Don't salvage the garbage of the Kanya Junior High School judgement again and again to chew. I've trashed it already on this very talk page) because: - - a. “Don't salvage the garbage of the Kanya Junior High School judgement” , the use of “garbage” refers to the jugdgment and not to anyone’s arguments. - - b. “. I've trashed it already on this very talk page” , the use of “it” refers to “the garbage of the Kanya Junior High School judgement” which again is directly pointing to the judgment. - - c. the whole of your statement does not make reference to any user, but for the use of the verb “salvaging”, thus you say for the user that he or she "salvaged" the “garbage” (which your statement uses for) “Supreme Court’s Judgment”(my point “a” above), and you hold that you “trashed” the “garbage” (my point “b” above) again implies that you hold that you “trashed” the Supreme Court’s Judgment. - - In light of this, I still hold you committed a contempt of the Court, under Sec. 2 subsection (c) of the Contempt of Courts Act, India (available for your reference at indiacode.nic.in). Even if you feel I intended to have a “personal attack” …so be it, (your feeling) for I still find it very important to point out a gross misuse of freedom of expression. - - 2. “Repeatedly Levelling baseless charges of Contempt”? It is only that section “Be Civil IAF” where I brought to your attention the fact that you need to be careful, where did I repeat it? But for now, where I had to “explain” it because ( I felt that) you did not understand it previously. - - I tried to show above, how the “charge” was not baseless. - - - 3. I never “complained” to anyone about your edits. You made the complain, and I merely put up my stance, not even a counter-complain. It is surely my opinion, but please keep in mind, as I already stated, I have concern only with your edits, and not with you. So, be it good or bad, is your edits, and not you. Hence, you would always remain a “ good editor” for I am in deep appreciation of everyone who contributes to Wiki, for I personally feel it is the most majestic (and largely well functioning) manifestation of the “freedom of expression”. (Though, a “good editor” like you, may have certain “ bad edits”, to which I pointed out). - - 4. Do I deserve a warning? I might or I might not, for I am unaware of the benchmarks ….as to what may attract a warning. But, as I said above, I still hold you as a “good editor”. And I point out certain bad edits, ...out of the billions on this earth, why should I even bother to have ill-will against one random being. If the supervisor may so find that I have committed a breach of any rules, I might be liable for a warning. However, let me again reinstate that in good faith, whatever I said, if it hurt you, or offended you, I withdraw and hold an apology. - - 5. Please explain: I still do not understand, of all things, why would you just DELETE the 2006 judgment of the Supreme Court, from the article. Isn’t that being really “unfair”, that you simply erase such an important piece of information only because it goes against how you want the article to be? - - The following is how you explain, why you deleted it: - “”Again before blatantly and base-lessly accusing me of deleting something simply because you say that I don't like it, I may point the finger back at you for never reading what I've commented earlier. I repeat, that is a judgement pertaining to a STATE, and not the Union of India. The Bal Patil judgement pertained to the Union of India (the case was Bal Patil vs. the Union of India) and it was therein that the SC made the observation that "Jainism is a sub-religion of Hinduism etc...." .”” - - But as I have already shown, you are neither aware nor trying to accept, the concept of implied overruling, or how the mere name of a case, does not limit its application to subjects. I detail below again, for your kind reference. - - 5.a You tried to insist that there is no “implied overruling” whereas, you were not even aware of what this legal concept is…and had I not mentioned that I am a student of law, you would perhaps have still insisted that “implied overruling” is how you define it to be (viz. in your words, “The SC's latest opinon is NOT an overruling implied, otherwise it would have been explicitly mentioned as it is in other cases. The judgement itself makes no mention of it anywhere as it always is in case of overrulings of previous judgements. It simply says that its an "interesting observation". That by itself is no implication of an overruling”) - - 5.b You tried to show that because the Bal patil judgment has “Union” in the name title, and the UP Shiksha judgment has “State”…the former applies to the Union, and the latter applies only to the “State”. This was a most inarticulate, and wholly illogical (also infra-legal, and incorrect per the established jurisprudence) explanation. I submitted to you how the “Supreme Court of India Rules” govern how a case is named, and illustrated how the case of "M.C. Mehta v. UT of Delhi", should apply, only to the territory of Delhi per your logic, BUT this is a Supreme Court Case , which governs the application of precautionary principle of Environmental Law THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY. - - The above, that is 5.a and 5.b are illustrations, why I hold that you are not being FAIR. You will give an argument absolutely only to suit your stance(viz, the explanation of implied overruling and the explanation of “state” and “union” in the name title”, and try to explain it in such whimsical fashion, devoid of facts and evidence rather going against what are established principles(which I showed how you are being totally incorrect). Only because I revealed that I am a law student, you witheld and said “you will reply later”( you wrote on the talk page, “OK so you reveal only NOW, albeit "nonchalantly", that you are a student of Law. So I'll discuss the legal part later on”), if you were unaware, why did you try to give such explanations at all (on, your explanation of implied overruling and the explanation of “state” and “union” in the name title”), while you knew that you do not know how it really goes. - - 6. Objections to methodology: Apart from the above illustrations, on how you try to use anything and everything just to support your stance, I also do not understand how can such blanket statement be made at all…as you wrote "because these core ideas of Jainsm & Buddhism are ideas that have clearly been loaned from Vedic Sanskrit literature and were NOT developed independently" What do you know about these core ideas of Jainism, and Buddhism to make such a statement? What do you know about how Jainism and Buddhism developed, in such comprehensive way, that you hold that these ideas “did NOT develop independently” at all? Kindly explain? What do you know about the concept of "Moksha" and "Nirvana" in Jainism? How do you know if the theory of "rebirth" is not different in Jainism?. Please do not impose so vehemently such blanket statements on wiki users.


[edit] You have committed another offence: Please be in your limits

Legalese 23:06, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

. Regarding your latest post on the Dharmic Religion page on WIKI, User: IAF/Indian Air Force, where you have quoted from a page, which you claim is a "Scholarly reference"(and you give all of us another chance of how you use pieces of information from the WORLD WIDE web, without even noting their context or relevance) please note the following DISCLAIMER on the end of the page. 1. You accused User: Anish Shah of quoting from a Jain "Orthodox" Website. Can you read ISKON or ARYA Samaj out there? No information is to be re-used or quoted, unless from permission by the Author. Please note that views held here, are in conjunction with Vedic views, such as those expressed by ISKCON members and the ARYA SAMAJ, not held by Islamic, Christian and other such organizations, and the author takes no responsibility for the results of the views held here and their consequences.

The author strongly advises that the content in these articles is to be used for non-commercial personal use, and not to be researched further, because of the risky nature of this content.

2. Your use of the quote is in "copyright violation" Because the author "reserved" the right "not to be copied"

3. Regarding your statement that "The philosophical edifice of Indian religion viz., Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism is built on the foundation laid by the Upanishads" which you said you are "quoting", I will show how you grossly misquoted.

You quoted it as follows: "The philosophical edifice of Indian religion viz., Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism is built on the foundation laid by the Upanishads"

The website you refer to ACTUALLY reads: "Presenting secret doctrines mainly in the form of dialogues between teachers and students of sacred learning, the Upanisads contributed substantially to the development of philosophical ideas in Buddhism, Hinduism and Jainism."

To make it a bit more clear to you, my dictionary says "quote" means: "Repeat a passage from". This does not include "moulding" or "reframing" the passage to suit one's own version.

4. That apart, the author to whom this page, (http://www.aasianst.org/book-prizes-ramanujan.htm)'from which you MISQUOTED' refers in the relevant part to a work of Prof. Olivelle for which he got a prize. He is a very learned professor on Indology, and he does not (I am sorry to say DOES NOT) believe that Jainism or Buddhism sprang from Hinduism. I say this on the basis of his reply to my email (feel free to seek a copy, or write to him for a clarification).


5. You tried to give your own whimsical meaning to legal concepts like "implied overruling" and implication of "name title" of a judgment. And without even checking the accuracy of your sweeping statements, you kept on insisting about how YOU think the concepts are to be defined, devoid of "common sense" or even "plain english" (I did show above, how). Only when you got to know that I am a student of law, you withdrew, that too, devoid of even the basic courtesy of accepting that you had made a mistake.

6. You keep quoting works from "degree holders in chinese medicine" and "geocities" pages, on Dharmic Religion, while I have put above several Professors and Scholars View (two of them are from the Yale University). You have not even replied to it yet.

7. You deleted the latest Supreme Court Judgment which is a crucial piece of information for this page on Dharmic Religion only to further your purpose of keeping this page in the way you want it to be, devoid of factual and material accuracy.

5. In name of being an editor of this page on Dharmic Religion, you have:

a.Used absolutely defamatory and unbefitting language for a Court of Law, and that too, for the Apex court of a country (to quote you, "Don't salvage the garbage of the Kanya Junior High School judgement again and again to chew." and I have already shown above (if it is not literally clear enough), how this statement of yours, which you now say does not, but actually does, refer only to the Supreme Court's Judgment and not to anyone's comment or statement)

b. Commited an illegal act, namely tried to incite religious disharmony by making a statement (unfortunately, to quote your abhorrent remark), "this might explain why Jains reject the Vedas. Some of what they claim as Tirthankars are depicted as demons in it.") which is prejudicial to the maintenance of harmony between different religious, ... groups or castes or communities, (the portion in bold here is directly being quoted from Section 153A of the Indian Penal Code)


In light of the above, I feel it is high time, that this page on Dharmic Religion should avoid you for atleast some time. Would you like to have a self imposed fetter, or do you want me to make a complaint. And next time, should you use such language for any religion or its icons, which goes totally against the spirit of Wiki, its etiquettes and ethics, and also is offensive, illegal, inciteful, showing hatred, and of all things, not civil...you would not receive a request, but probably a legal notice or summon.Legalese 23:06, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

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