Talk:Hyksos

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Contents 1 Discussion 2 {{confusing}} 3 Hebrews ? 4 Summary paragraph 5 Hyksos and the Exodus 6 Problems 7 Jacobovici? 8 Barbaric 9 "Captive Shepherds"?

[edit] Discussion

Why is there a "discussion" in the second paragraph? It should be moved here. BOARshevik 20:41, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

I looked up in the history, and it looks like it was taken care of. :) ViolinGirl^♪ 17:46, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

" Another standpoint for this theory is one of the important Hyksos cities, Avaris, which is called modernly Tel el-Yahudiyeh (meaning "mound of the Jews") known for its distinctive black and whiteware. "..

This is not a sentence as written. I don't know what is meant here. Also, I've never heard of the phrase "standpoint for a theory".. don't know what it means Steve kap 16:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC) ..

[edit] {{confusing}}

Is it just me, or is this article confusing? I feel it's not clear enough about who the Hyksos were. Were they actually Pharaohs, or were they a group of people in rebellion to the Pharaohs? Is it confusing to anyone else? Does anyone object to me putting the {{confusing}} template on? Please let me know here or here. --ViolinGirl^♪ 17:51, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Both. They were foreign asiatic (from a location in Asia Minor) rulers who took over the country for a while and ruled as Pharaohs. They ruled from a base at the Nile delta (lower Egypt).

Meanwhile, to the south, in Thebes, indigenous local rulers started getting annoyed by this, and were particularly xenophobic. Eventually, after many years, the local rulers of Thebes appointed themselves Pharaoh, raised an army, and attacked the Hyksos rulers, pushing them out of Egypt.

No-one knows for sure where the Hyksos came from, and they essentially suddenly appear in the historical record, and there isn't much indication how they came to be rulers; we don't know if they were appointed as heirs to the indigenous Pharaohs, they took it by force, they were immigrants who just came to power by steady increase of influence, or if they invaded en masse.

What is clear, however, from the records, is that they were asiatic (from Asia Minor - the middle east and surrounding area to the north), and that is where they returned to after being chased out. Hence many people associate them with the Israelites in the Exodus period, though this causes several contradictions with parts of the biblical record. Others think them to be quite a different group.

--Victim of signature fascism | help remove biblecruft 17:06, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for clearing that up for me! I guess now the {{confusing}} template isn't needed. --ViolinGirl^♪ 18:47, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hebrews ?

Shouldn' this article contain a bit more about the association with the Hebrews? I just added a little blurb in the intro, which I hopes helps explain the various references that were scattered in the article (The words "Hebrew" and "Israelite" did not appear in the article before).

Other articles, such as Exodus, or Plagues of Egypt contain references to that controversy; in Plagues of Egypt:

In an historical context, the greatest candidate for the Israelite presence in Egypt is that of the Hyksos. However, rather than being slaves who escaped, the Hyksos were rulers who were chased out of Egypt. The extreme resistance, in the story, of the unnamed Pharaoh to releasing them therefore, according to such an historical-critical view, serves to provide an explanation of why an Egyptian Pharaoh so angrily chased after the Israelites.

This is quite different from what we find on this page :P Maybe this mini-controversy deserves it's own section? Flammifer 06:37, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I would like more info on the Hebrew-Hyksos connection (if any). To me, this article just has a small blrub poo-pooing the idea. I would love to have either an expanded section showing both sides, or a new article. If there is a connection, it would explan so much, how a group of "ex-slaves" defeated mighty armys and concured land. If its not true, well, that would be good to know too! Steve kap 13:53, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

207.118.9.58 04:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)I find confusion here, but in a different manner. It becomes apparent to me in studying Biblical texts (Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, and Nag Hammadi among others) that the term Hebrew as we use it was only recently strictly codified. I usually prefer to use the term Semite until about 200 AD. Many of the terms we use to describe Semitic people before that were interchangeable at the time. There was no difference between a Nazerene and an "Essene who marries". Nazarene never meant from Nazareth, as it is currently commonly thought. Maccabbees (please forgive my poor spellings in this section)and Sadducees would both refer to themselves as Zaddukkites, even though they hated each other. The Hyksos and the Hebrew have always been the same people, and the terminology problems merely those of squares, rectangles, and parrallelograms.

The real question that I want answered (and I feel is relevant) is were the Hyksos monotheists?

no. they were not. but i think that they belived into "god-pyramide" were one ruller god rule others as king.

-

[edit] Summary paragraph

Why is this paragraph here? Shouldn't this be the intro? Brutannica 00:37, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hyksos and the Exodus

Do you not agree that the chances of Egypt allowing two sets of foreigners to infiltrate its society within 400 years, is an unlikely scenario, regardless of the decadence of Pharonic rule. Considering the inaccuracies contained wihin the Old Testament and the vague dates and double inclusions of Maneto's timeline it is logical to assume that there were several groups of foreigners in Egypt circa 1600BC. Egypt alsp underwent a massive social change at this time under the hands of Akenaten (I grant the timing is tricky) As the recognised first monotheisic ruler in history, I suggest that he had close contact with a culture that already believed in one God - the Hyksos,Hebrews,Israellites. If Tuthmosis 111(Akenaten's dad) was the Exodus Pharoah, not Horemheb as popular belief would have it, and Akenaten had sympathies for the expelled peoples, this would tie up a lot of loose ends, not least of which is, "How did one odd looking bloke overthrow 2000 years of culture and formalised relegion within 5 years taking on the priesthood and the army?" Sotty about the spelling, its late! Rumble

First, we don't know if the Old Testament is inaccurate or not until we have a firm hold on every event in it. Also, while I believe him to be the Pharaoh of the Oppression (not Exodus), most do not believe Horemheb was either of the described Pharaohs, in favor of Ramses II. Tuthmosis III was not Akhenaten's father, he was his great-grandfather, and no, that would not tie many loose ends together. Finally, to the point, I removed the notion about Akh-mose as it is just a mispronunciation of Ahmose I (AH-mos), and his name does not mean "brother of Moses" in either language, rather it means "the moon is born". And he was not newly discovered.mikey 23:05, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Suppose the Hyksos, in populating Northern Egypt, invited other Asiatic/Semitic parties in to help settle, just as today Israel invites Jews in to settle the land. In that fashion during the timeperiod they could have conceivably invited in the Jews. Therefore, the friendly Pharaoh that welcomed Joseph and his brothers could have been a Hyksos pharaoh. Possible? 24.247.157.122 01:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course it is possible, but that doesn't explain all the chariots, which didn't come until late in the Hyksos period, and that Joseph was appointed over ALL of Egypt, or that Joseph's brothers had to use the interpretor, the Canaanite language used by the Hyksos was virtually the same as Hebrew, and was the language used by the Israelites. I noticed something also about the Hyksos pharaohs Khayan and Auserra Apopi: In the Haggada, the Pharaoh whom Sarai, wife of Abram marries is said to be a man originally from Mesopotamia named Rakayan, and the previous pharaoh, Ashwerosh, abdicated the throne to Rakayan very early in his reign because of the great service Rakayan did for him. Ashwero (Ash-ware-ah) is equivalent to Auserra, with the sh maybe added on to reduce the stress at the end of the word, and the name Rakayan may be explained by the reducing of "Ra" because of it maybe being a reference to the god Ra, while the "ra" in the names of others may be talking about the sun. I think the similarity of names is interesting, and maybe we should see if there is any evidence to Auserra reigning BEFORE Khayan briefly and then taking over after. The problem is the Hyksos kings were very elusive, but it may be worth looking into. So maybe Abraham and Sarah lived a little later than thought, and in turn Joseph and the Exodus was later. Very interesting to me.mikey 02:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Or, perhaps Rakayan is a contraction of Seuserenra Khayan. mikey 02:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

69.29.255.17 23:05, 16 November 2006 (UTC)Actually, I find frequent influxes of foreigners into Egypt to be a quite likely scenario. While some details are in debate, there is evidence to suggest multiple Semitic influxes into Egypt from the time of Imhotep through the time of Ramses II.

Also, regarding language, The Semites didn't use the Hebrew language as we know it until after the time of the Santorini Explosion, so translations would be necessary if Joseph predates that period. They used ProtoSinaitic.

Edit: My bad. PS is an alphabet, not a language.

I do agree with Rumble regarding monotheism coming to Egypt from Semites as opposed to the Semites getting monotheism from Akhenaton.

I have just inserted {{talkheader}} to remind users that talk pages are not intended as a general forum for discussing the topic. The above discussion was clearly more of that kind than discussing how to improve the article. DFH 18:21, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problems

This page needs the attention of an expert. My experties only goes back as far as the 17th dynasty, but I can at least tell that some parts need a rewrite.

The Hurrian theory is obsolete. The Indo-Iranian theory is not the dominant replacement. The mainstream theory is that they were, to quote my professors, "garden variety caananites." Redford's Egypt, Canaan, and Israel... would probably be useful here.

The Hebrew-Hyksos theory is mainained by exremely few people, and "Decoding the Exodus" is neither a Reliable source nor a Majority thesis. It should probably be removed or mentioned in only a sentance or so. Thanatosimii 03:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jacobovici?

I never read Jacobovici's Exodus Decoded, so I'm not sure what phrase he actually uses... but "(whom he calls "Amo Israel", "the people of God")" seems a bit odd, as Am Israel or Am Yisra'el is a common way to refer to the Jewish people in Hebrew, meaning 'the People of Israel'. No Gods involved. Benji man 13:16, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Barbaric

I removed the descriptor 'the barbaric' from in front of 'Central Asia' in the 'Was there really a Hyksos Invasion?' section. I can see no point in the term in it's literal sense (non-greek speaker), nor any in its commonly accepted sense (people with a lesser level of civilisation). The former is irrelevant, and that latter appears to me to be a value judgement which has no place in an encyclopedia article. Hegar 14:12, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

While I don't believe it was necesarry to the prose in that section, barbaric is a frequent neutral word used in encyclopedias of history of far better repute than wikipedia ever will have to describe untechnologically advanced peoples. People generally need to calm down when they see words used in specific contexts of certain fields of study that wouldn't make sense in other fields. Thanatosimii 17:56, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Captive Shepherds"?

I deleted the following (uncited) etymology for "Hyksos" as if from "captive shepherds", since it contradicts the explanation in the opening paragraph as from "foreign rulers". If the deleted etymology has serious scholars supporting it, please cite them and organize the encyclopedia entry so that discussions about etymology occur together. Here is the deleted text:

• Josephus' translation is understandable, as Hekw is spelled with the shepherd's crook glyph, but hyk came from the Egyptian word for "captive", so that hyksos meant "captive shepherds".

--70.171.38.69 15:31, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

No... that's entierly wrong. hAq means chieftain, not captive, and any etymology which claims that Hyksos has anything to do with shephers is based upon the fact that in the last few centuries BC, xwst was pronounced the same way as Swst, shepherd. Thanatosimii 20:05, 11 February 2007 (UTC)