Talk:Husayn ibn Ali

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Hasan's role on this page does not agree with what is at Husain.--iFaqeer 20:46, Sep 23, 2004 (UTC)

His head is not really buried in Egypt...

Added Arabic script in article, removing {{Arabic}} from talk page. --Skoosh 03:52, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 family life 2 Move 3 Husayn's head 4 The picture 5 Major revision 6 The Penitents 7 The Pentitent MuslimGuy 8 Revised yet again 9 Reverting anon's edits 10 Changes 11 WHY ZORA 12 More Shi'a edits 13 Latest edits 14 Salman edits 15 Family Section of Hazrat Imam Hussain AS's article 16 Bibi Shahrbanu VS a Myth 17 pic 18 Any hint on the name-linked abbreviations? (RA, A.S., S.A.W) 19 Disambiguation 20 Correct Spelling Of Husayn is Hussain 21 Martyrdom details? 22 Bias, Unprofessionalism

[edit] family life

should we not remove the family life section as it is a repeat of the introduction?--prashidi 03:30, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move

Ali is listed as "Ali ibn Abi Talib", yet, when we come to this name, despite the page being called "Husayn bin Ali", we end up having to have the name bolded as "Husayn ibn Ali ibn Talib". I think we should move this for consistency's sake since it seems ibn is the more popular in scholarly, and well, most literature I've seen recently. gren グレン 00:33, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

• Support gren グレン 00:33, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. Dragons flight 00:52, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Husayn's head

My Syrian guidebooks claim that Husayn's head is still burried in the Damascus Umayyad Mosque. Kalif Yazid of the Umayyad dynasty (Sunni) joined the battle in Karbala and brought the head to Damascus in order to be humiliated. Today this shrine is one of the most crowded of the mosque, full of Shia pilgrims (most women wearing black clothes) crying (or yelling or whatever) at the shrine.

[edit] The picture

Would someone please make a legacy section like the one we have on the Ali page, so that we can move the imaginary portrait of Hussein to there?--Zereshk 16:20, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Major revision

I did my best to make the article neutral rather than Shi'a hagiography. That included removing the purely imaginary picture, the bright green template, etc. Zora 04:08, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh heck -- I though I'd saved it, but apparently my 3-hours-labor is lost. Dang. At it again. Zora 04:18, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Aha, edit conflict. Got it. Zora 04:21, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Penitents

Someone came and changed the text to read that only Sunnis believed in the Penitents. I went back to my books and found several academic references to the Penitents. However, I couldn't confirm the detail re the first Ashurah commemoration. Momen, in his history of Shi'a Islam, says that they were a group of proto-Shi'a who organized in secret and mounted a failed rebellion four years after Husayn's death.

This material belongs in a history of Shi'a Islam (no good article at present), so I'm removing it from this article. Perhaps that will short-cut some argument. Zora 00:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Pentitent MuslimGuy

Ok, I think I'm getting how this works. "ZORRRRAAAAA, ZORRRRAAAAA. Can you hear me out there????" Well, if this somehow gets to you, I wanted to let you know that all the stuff you took out of "Penitents", I can cite...todos, toute le monde, and all of it, cited. Just let me know what you prefer, Arab sources, Western sources? Does the Publishing Company have to be from New England? Whatever basically;)--Muslimguy 77 03:54, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually forget about all this stuff. I just read your argument with Zereshk regarding Misconceptions about the Shi'a. I have all the sources I need for anything about Shi'a Islam, since I have a library full of material. However, I don't have the fight to nitpick all the little things like Zereshk had to do just to move the needle a little - and not liberal enough to say anything at the risk of being called an "antisemite" - I was in the theology "business" in the Lutheran Church. I can tell you one thing though: Shi'a Islam stands out as an inarguable religion, one that puts a thorn in your side the closer you get to it. There's no beating it. Ask generations of bedouin arabs, jews, and turks...and they'll all tell you the same thing. Pain in the a$*. Shi'a Islam, welcome to the West. --Muslimguy 77 04:25, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I really don't undestand what you're trying to say. Zora 07:23, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh nothing really...I'm scandalous!--Muslimguy 77 06:35, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

... not to mention extremely rough. --Ciroa 23:32, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revised yet again

At some point in the past, someone removed a chunk of the narrative and replaced it with a badly written para claiming that Muawiya poisoned Hassan (Shi'a belief re Hassan, no historical foundation). I didn't notice this, as I was checking just the diffs, and it was part of the article for weeks! I just rewrote the section that had been trashed.

The claims re poisoning are (or should be) handled in the Hassan article, and they don't need to be given here. Zora 21:04, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reverting anon's edits

An anon spent a lot of time editing this article to make it conform to a pious Shi'a POV. I suspect that English was the anon's second language, since he/she/it mangled a lot of the prose in the process. I reverted to an earlier version that is not slanted and garbled. Zora 20:45, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changes

I have made some changes today be the article was poorly structured and on some places there were some spelling mistakes. But someone needs to fix the pictures the right way. Thank You Salman

Salman, I reverted your changes. You, and an anon, rewrote the article so that it read like a Shi'a-POV biography. This is a secular encyclopedia. We cannot state Shi'a beliefs as fact, or use loaded, emotive terms like "martyr" for Husayn. We are also keeping Husayn for the name, as that is the one used in all the scholarly texts I consulted. Zora 01:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WHY ZORA

What was wrong with the changes i made to Imam Hussain's article? The information was basically the same i did not add in anything from the point of view of the shi'as. I just made some Grammar corrections and corrected the way some names were spelled. Okay you know what Zora you can keep the article the way you want it but as far the the shi's sections of the article is concerned that is going to be written in the point of view of the shi'as. You said that Imam Hussain (AS) can not be a martyr, i have the proofs that he is a martye, but do u have nay proofs that he is not a martyr. When u get the proofs u can edit it then.

I have changed the article the way Zora felt confortable with. But someone still has to put up some pictures and the Islamic Stuff on the right side of the article! OKAY Thank You Salman

Yes, the Shi'a section can say he was a martyr. As long as the Shi'a section stays in proportion, it IS fine to explain who the Shi'a believe him to be. That is useful knowledge for people who aren't Shi'as. It's just that you shouldn't rewrite the top section (which tries to be neutral, and just state what is accepted by all sides) so that it is Shi'a POV too. It is also useful to know that not everyone shares the Shi'a views. Zora 02:16, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay Zora, i am going to change the top section of the article to neutral, even though it is. But i am going to double check to make sure it is neutral.

[edit] More Shi'a edits

Someone put the title "Bibi" in front of all the women's names. WP doesn't use honorifics. Also, Muhammad was rendered as Prophet Muhammad, which again assumes a Muslim POV.

The section of quotes seems to have expanded greatly. All of them are attributed to "Imam Hussein", which assumes a Shi'a POV, and none of them are sourced. If any of the Shi'a editors want to edit down the quotes, source them, and remove POV references to "Imam", that would be fine. Otherwise, I will do it. This article should not be a soapbox for Shi'a Islam. Zora 10:10, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I just removed all of the other honorifics (s.a.w.). This article is so biased that it makes Soviet propaganda seem like good journalism ... - Wikigeek

[edit] Latest edits

An anon was at work on the article, turning even the neutral, non-sectarian portion into Shi'a hagiography. Portions were also excised. I restored an older version, but incorporated edits by Cunardo. I also removed all the quotes, which were too many, too long, and completely unreferenced. I found the Encyclopedia Iranica article on Shahrbanu, which dismisses her as a myth, and added that to the article. Zora 15:17, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Battle of Karbala section edited. "Even his six-month-old son Ali Asghar was not spared,Husayn fought the evil opressors with ultimate courage till his last breath, he had unshakable faith in ALMIGHTY GOD , he never never surrendered to the evil army" is now edited to: "Even his six-month-old son Ali Asghar was not spared, Husayn fought the opponent with courage till his last breath, he had unshakable faith in God, he never surrendered to the enemy." And i feel that it is still too emotional and subjective for encyclopedia.

[edit] Salman edits

Salman, I reverted most of your edits. Please stop trying to turn this into Shi'apedia! We give a fair, neutral version and there are links to various Shi'a sites if people want a fuller version of the Shi'a POV.

I found the website from which the sayings were copied, originally, and picked two of the sayings to put up. These are the sayings that display Husayn in the best light. If you put up the others, people are just going to refuse to read them. (MEGO -- My Eyes Glaze Over.) I also took the liberty of editing the sayings slightly, to make them read better in English. Whoever put them up on that site was not a native speaker of English and was putting up clumsy translations. Zora 22:01, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Salman, you have been very enthusiastic and active on wikipedia, and your desire to contribute is greatly appreciated. However, it seems clear that you've not given much consideration (or not been exposed to) the range of opinions wikipedia must reflect. Non-muslims, for example, do not generally consider Muhammad to have been a prophet, as per your comments on Zora's talk page.

Similarly, non-Muslims do not use "martyred" in this way. By saying he was martyred, you say he died for God. Okay, perhaps. I am no defender of the Umayyads. But it's POV, and doesn't belong on wikipedia. I suggest you take some time reading through articles about other religions, and other articles about Islam, to see the measure of neutrality and distance we're expected to apply.Timothy Usher 22:31, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

• The argument for not using the word 'martyr' or 'martyrdom' is flawed. Merriam Webster Online Dictionary defines martyrdom as "the suffering of death on account of adherence to a cause and especially to one's religious faith". I think everyone agrees that this person was killed because of his beliefs. Therefore, the usage of the word martyrdom seems accurate. The argument that using the word martyrdom implies being in killed for God, therefore is biased, is irrelevant. The word martyrdom is a much more accurate word to use because of its definition - even if it goes against preconceived notions about the words connotations. --aliasad 04:48, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I can not change the way ignorant think. But as far as the Shi’a section is concerned of this article. Shi’a people believe that Imam Hussain AS and his 72 companions were martyred not killed. Right cuz that’s what Shi’a community believes right, so I guess that if I put that Imam Hussain and his 72 companions were martyred in the battle of Karbala, then no one is going to have any problem with it right, regardless if they are Sunnis (even Sunni people say that he was martyred, even they consider Yazid as there Caliph), and non-Muslims. And as far as the sayings of Imam Hussain AS’s are concerned, I accept the fact that I copied it from another website but I also refereed the section to the website I go it from. I didn’t take the credit of writing the sayings I gave it to the website I got it from. Thank You Salman

Well, some martyrs are not for anybody: there are "conflicting martyrs", people that is a martyr for somebody and an enemy for some others. I believe that martyrdom meaning is clear: to be killed only (or mainly) for your religious beliefs. I believe that as the article on Martyr explicitely states, Husayn bin Ali is "an archetypal martyr for the Shi'a". Look how easily, by adding "for the Shia" you elliminate disputes about POV: you are accurately describing whom the man is a martyr for. --Ciroa 23:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Family Section of Hazrat Imam Hussain AS's article

I don’t understand whey Zora is providing an outside link for Bibi Shahrbanu, when wikipedia has an article for her already. And even the link is corrupted, I visited that link and there is nothing on that page for Bibi Shahrbanu. So I don’t know why Zora is adding the outside link for Bibi Shahrbanu in the family section of Hazrat Imam Hussain AS. And she is even misspelling the name of Bibi Shahrbanu father’s name, Zora spells it (Yazdjard III) but if you do research on the father of Bibi Shahrbanu, the correct way to spell his name is Yazdegerd III, and even wikipedia has an article on him. Whenever I try to fix these things Zora just keeps on reverting it. So I told Zora not to change the family section until the matter is discussed on the talk page. So I hope we are going to hear her side of story pretty soon. Thank You Salman

You're right -- the link isn't working. I don't know why. I have rewritten the Shahrbanu article, and will now add clarifying material to this article. Salman, we're willing to allow you to include your Shi'a versions of things, if they aren't stated as fact, but you mustn't remove critical material. Zora 22:01, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bibi Shahrbanu VS a Myth

1. “Academics regard this story as a myth, intended to give a Persian heritage to the Shi'a Imams”. Now according to Zora’s sources, Bibi Shahrbanu is a myth. In other words a woman by that name did not exit, and a woman by that name did not marry Hazrat Imam Ali ibn Hussain ibn Ali ibn Abu Talib. I told her that she can not say this unless she can provide us with some proof (a link to the website where she got the information from, or the name of the author, or the title of the book she got the information from). I also told her that I will take off the sentence that she wrote about Bibi Shahrbanu being a myth ACCORDING TO SOME HISTORIANS. And Zora what “critical material” are you talking about, can you please be clearer. Thank You (05/06/06)

2. Zora provided some statements, that she said proofs that Bibi Shahrbanu is a myth .But those three statements were saying that Bibi Shahrbanu was the daughter of Yazdgerd III, Bibi Shahrbanu married the grandson of the Prophet Muhammad SAW, and Bibi Shahrbanu was the mother of Imam Ali ibn Hussain ibn Ali ibn Abu Talib AS. So I don’t know how these three statements prove that the wife of my 3rd Imam and the mother of my 4th Imam (Bibi Shahrbanu) was a myth. When the statements that she provided on the page, clearly states, that se was the wife (of the 3rd Imam of Shi’as), mother (of the 4th Imam of the Shi’as), and the grandmother of all the Shi’a Imams after Hazrat Imam Ali ibn Hussain ibn Ali ibn Abu Talib. So I told her that she will have to provide some statements that clearly states that according to her sources, Bibi Shahrbanu did not exit, as far as her connection is concerned with our Imams. Thank You (05/07/06) Salman

[edit] pic

Why is [[Image:Imam_Hussain.jpg|frame|right|Zarih-e-Imam Hussain]] not added? --Striver 14:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Any hint on the name-linked abbreviations? (RA, A.S., S.A.W)

Ay yi yi! This seems to be a contentious article all around, but I have a simple, naive question: What do all those abbreviations mean? (A.S.? S.A.W.?) I'm unfamiliar with them, would like to know what they stand for. Cheers,

timbo 02:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

S.A.W. means "salla Allahu alayhi wa sallam" or "sallalahu aleyhi wasallam", which means "Peace be upon him" or if you wish "May God bless him and grant him peace". This is called salawat. Is a phrase that Muslims are required to say after mentioning the name of the Islamic prophets such as Muhammad, Jesus Christ, Abraham and all the other prophets cited in the Qur'an.

Shia Muslims mention a similar salutation (aleyhi salaam - upon him be peace, I believe this is the A.S. of the text) after mentioning Ali ibn Abi Talib or one of the imams that followed Ali. Shia also uses this for Imams, particularly Ali: "Alayh wa 'ala Ahlehi-es-salat-u wa-s-Salam", meaning: "Upon him and his family be the exaltations and peace of God". --Ciroa 00:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Correct Spelling Of Husayn is Hussain

i think correct spelling of "Husayn" is "Hussain".if any one have any thing to say ,beacuse i will make changes with Spelling Hussain.

Khalidkhoso 07:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I did a quick Google to check but it confirmed my memory -- in western English it's usually "Hussein". I noticed that in South Asia, it's often "Hussain" but it's rarely "Husayn" in any usage.

Unless I'm confused! It's all the same name, right? "Hussein" vs. Hussain" vs. "Husayn"?

In any regard, it should be consistent in the article. --Calan 05:22, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Martyrdom details?

Shouldn't the article mention the fact that he was beheaded at the Battle of Karbala? The only reference is in the burial section: "Most accounts say that his head was later retrieved and interred with his body...." Actually, the Battle of Karbala section doesn't even mention that he was martyred there. That would seem to be important, no?

Joeknize 03:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bias, Unprofessionalism

Read the last paragraph of the Battle of Karbala. I assume this needs correction/deletion. I'll leave that for someone better educated of the Battle than myself. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 199.8.89.251 (talk) 15:29, 26 March 2007 (UTC).