Talk:Humor about Catholicism

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[edit] Anti?

To categorize much of what is discussed here as "anti" Catholic satire and humor is a bit misdirected. Particularly Monty Python. "Anti" implies a form of criticism with a very negative aim or intention. Sure satire employs a critical type of humor and often has a serious "message" but I don't think, for instance, that Monty Python had anything particularly against Catholicism or Catholics ... nor do I think they were attacking the religion or its constituents. I think this entry needs to be re-labbled and toned down. Maybe one of the subsections could be "Anti-Catholic satire". Any ideas?PelleSmith 12:37, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I made the same point when this text was part of the Anti-Catholicism article. See Talk:Anti-Catholicism for the debate that we had on the topic. I inserted and later removed a description of the Father Guido Sarducci routine on the same grounds that you object to the inclusion of the Spanish Inquisition routine.

Personally, I would remove the reference to the Spanish Inquisition routine altogether but I left it in because User:Colin4C seems to feel strongly that it should be kept. Let's see what other people think and proceed accordingly. --Richard 16:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I have looked through the debate at Anti-Catholicism and I still find the "anti" label misguided. I think the solution is not to remove the Spanish Inquisition piece but to rename the entry. "Satire of Catholicism" or something else neutral which does not imply intended malice or ill will. Then subsections can be created if there are particular examples of satire that are intended in such a vein, and/or if there are particular examples that caused controversy because they offended Catholics or the church. Would you call a devout Catholic's self-satirizing humor "anti-Catholic" (to use an extreme example)? Or, a more common one, Jewish humor that pokes fun at Judaism--is that anti-semitic? I'm sorry if some of this is rehash of the old debate, but this page is newly created and the issue should be dealt with here. Can we rename the entry?PelleSmith 20:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm happy to continue the "old" debate because I don't think it was resolved. However, while I'm not violently opposed to your proposal, I do think it is worth debating the alternatives before plunging ahead.

As I understand it, you envision one article called Catholic satire or Humor about Catholicism or whatever and "Anti-Catholic satire and humor" being a section within that article. I'm not opposed to this alternative. In fact, I proposed something like it on the other Talk Page.

A different alternative is to keep this article as is and create a new one called Catholic satire or Humor about Catholicism with a summary section on "Anti-Catholic" humor which references this one.

Perhaps the best solution would be to start by moving this article to Humor about Catholicism with the current text being the "Anti-Catholic humor" section. If the "Anti-Catholic humor" section grows big enough to warrant its own article, we can always re-create this one.

The concern is whether we have enough material to create an encyclopedic article titled Humor about Catholicism and whether we would be able to source it. I would not want to create something that would be AfD'ed for being original research. --Richard 21:13, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I can see everyones concerns about this. Maybe it depends on what force we give to the word 'anti'. The Catholic church as the subject of humor and satire is a 'target' of some sort...As for the Monty Python sketch, as I originally wrote the piece, as part of the Anti-Catholicism article, this was to illustrate that traditional anti-Catholic tropes are themselves the subject of humor and burlesque, however it has now been wrenched out of context and put at the beginning of the article...To futher complicate matters I'm now thinking that a lot of the humour and satire directed at the church hierarchy, bishops and such, would be better put under an 'anti-clerical humor' designation...Colin4C 11:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Look, I'm new to this debate, and not someone even interested in editing the anti-Catholicism entry, but in my view "anti" is much too commonly used in a much more negative capacity than you seem to want to understand it. Like I said, I'm not sure about the entry that spawned this piece Anti-Catholicism nor do I wish to comment on it, but to seemingly categorize satire about something as mostly "anti" said thing is generally a huge mistake. Richardshusr's options are good ones and I think one of them should be followed here. Also keep in mind that satire is by definition critical, so to say anti-whatever satire is to really pronounce the idea of malicious intent. I think this may be where some of the confusion is coming from.PelleSmith 12:03, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I am not too precious about the title of this article. Maybe Satire of Catholicism would be the best option. Catholic Satire suggests satire BY Catholics which would be misleading. As suggested, I guess sub-sections will sort out the different grades of humor or degrees of satire. Colin4C 16:04, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that both Catholic satire and Catholic humor suggests that we are talking about satire and humor BY Catholics. That is why I've been proposing Humor about Catholicism as a new name for this article. I think "Satire" could be a subsection and we can then debate whether Father Ted, Spanish Inquisition and Father Guido Sarducci belong in "Satire" or "Burlesque".

--Richard 16:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, I agree with Humor about Catholicism as the new name for this article. Colin4C 16:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)