Talk:Horst-Wessel-Lied

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WikiProject Echo has identified Horst-Wessel-Lied as a foreign language featured article. You may be able to improve this article with information from the German language Wikipedia.

Perhaps a brief line explaining how Der Fuhrer's Face parodied the song would be in order, as it's not entirely readily apparent when listening to the two tunes. 156.34.221.174 14:37, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Second that, i can't find any Lied in the film. --Big gun 14:45, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

What aboet telling us about the circumstances of Horst Wessels death and why the Nazis chose him as the subject of the song?

And how about posting the lyrics? Me and my friends like churning out some campfire songs, so I'd like to know what I'm singing.

Contents 1 Copyright? 2 Original lyrics? 3 Horst-Wessel-Lied 4 Rewrite/Copyright 5 Lyrics format 6 Red Front 7 Article title 8 Other Lyrics

[edit] Copyright?

What's the copyright position? Under the 70 year rule, it's only PD if the author died before 1936. And is the translation the editor's own or copied from somewhere?--Brownlee 12:08, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

If you look at the article about the author of the lyrics and putative composer of the melody, Horst Wessel, you will see that he died in 1930. Further, it is now commonly believed that the melody itself is an adaptation of an earlier folksong melody. (See the linked article from International Folklore Review included as a reference.) The translation is another matter. It appears to have been copied from the Wikipedia Nazi songs article, which in turn cites a page of the the Internet History Sourcebook which grants permission for electronic copying. Mapleseed 17:58, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Original lyrics?

Is there any reason (such as the German law, though I doubt this has any effect) the original German lyrics are not shown in the article?  ProhibitOnions  ^(T) 21:08, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I've now added them.  ProhibitOnions  ^(T) 12:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Horst-Wessel-Lied

Shouldn't this be moved to Horst-Wessel-Lied. The title is in German and the correct german spelling is Horst-Wessel-Lied. --° 11:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing. Think I'll do it now, in fact.  ProhibitOnions  ^(T) 12:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite/Copyright

I have rewritten and expanded this article, largely using the linked paper by Broderick. There are some relevant photos here but I would want an opinion on their copyright status before I uploaded them. (General inquiry: what is the copyright status of "official" photos and artwork from the Third Reich under current German law? There seems to be an assumption at Wikipedia that because the Third Reich is defunct, copyright does not apply to its relics). Adam 04:50, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't load that page, it breaks my browser. But if you speak of propaganda materials, I think it's absurd to claim or fear copyright issues. Propaganda materials, by their nature, are intended to be spread as widely as possible. Citizens are sometimes arrested for failing to copy and distribute them. Now that the Third Reich is defunct and discredited, I think any copyright that might ever have been claimed is doubly moot. IANAL.

If you want legal issues when dealing with Nazi propaganda, worry about current German law forbidding display. Fortunately, our server is in Florida. Anyway, historical purposes should be fine. John Reid ° 12:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lyrics format

I've reformatted the lyrics and translations; the old version was unreadable. You may wish to fiddle some more with the presentation but please avoid excessive italics. They are very hard to read in big blocks. No need to grind in the fact that they are lyrics or that some are in German, some in English. Okay? John Reid ° 13:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Red Front

A subtlety is lost in translation. The German text contains "Rotfront", which was a standard abbreviation for Rotfrontkämpferbund, who frequently clashed with SA. The KPD idea was Rot Front (written as two words). `'mikkanarxi 18:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article title

Some decided that "Horst-Wessel-Lied" is song title. Its title was "Die Fahne hoch!". "Horst-Wessel-Lied" means simply "Horst Wessel's song", and that "Lied" starts with the capital letter (which could hint that is a title) is accidental, because in German language nouns are written from capitals. Therefore the article must be either moved under its original title Die Fahne hoch! or under its English name, which is Horst Wessel song.

Opinions, please. `'mikkanarxi 18:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I just don't understand the hyphens. I don't think it matters, since there must be redirects from every possible variation. No matter where the article sits, it's unlikely that anyone searching for it will guess at the "correct" title first time -- but that's why we have redirects. It's probably more trouble than it's worth to move it, anyway. Besides, this is the kind of debate that can rage for years without conclusion. What is the "real" title? What Horst called it when he wrote it? Of course! What the drunken storm trooper called it when shouting it out in the Bierstube? Without a doubt, the only choice. What the Blitzed Londoners called it? This is, after all, English Wikipedia! What the dry scholar poking about in his papers calls it? Why, we must respect authority! What the common American schoolboy working on his essay calls it? We should be accessible!

This brings to mind a news account I read some years ago about a troubled spot on the border of Pakistan and India. It seems that for at least the last thousand years, the locals have disputed a certain specific location; both sides agree it is holy but they each have their own views on the proper god or gods to be worshipped there -- and, therefore, the proper building in which to worship. Periodically, local control shifts, the existing temple is demolished and a new and different one erected in its place.

After that latest clash (at the time of publication), several hundred locals were slaughtered and the previous building razed; however the losers rallied and regained control. At this point, one of demolishers rushed the ranks of the demolished, pierced their lines, and laid a single stone on the disputed spot. He was, of course, immediately killed for his trouble. The explanation given was that the martyr had begun symbolic contruction of a temple to his chosen god. I've always been intrigued by this story, a meditation on the folly of men and -- depending on how you ascribe their motives -- the power or impotence of gods. After all these years, the only stones available nearby must have been used at some time in the construction of both competing temples, so what was the young man really doing?

Contrast what the locals do in Jerusalem, where 4 or 5 major religions squabble over one spot and have their temples and bits of temples but don't usually kill each other over them. Instead, they built an airport and hotels and make a great deal of money from tourists who come to see.

I say we build an airport, don't worry about the article title. John Reid ° 01:04, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, don't panic. I didn't start moving the article from its current place, however strange for an English reader the title is now. `'mikkanarxi 01:10, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The article was given its current title before I became involved with it. I think it should be called Horst Wessel Song, because that's its most common name in English, but like Reid I don't think it's worth arguing about. On Rotfront, I dare say Mikkalai is correct. The original manuscript in Wessels' handwriting gives "Rotfront" not "Rot Front." Adam 02:28, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

On the Rotfrontkämpferbund: I have always assumed that its title is composed of Rot + frontkämpfer + bund, that is, an organisation for KPD veterans of World War I ("frontfighters"), with the "front" refering to the wartime "front" rather than the political "Red Front." But I have not looked into this. It the Rotfrontkämpferbund is to have an article it also should have an English title Red Front Fighters' League or something like that. Adam 02:40, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I first searched for this article at "horst wessel song"; redirected that. Next, tried "Horst Wessel song"; redirected that. Finally found it (through rd) at "Horst Wessel Song". I really, really object to case-sensitive titles in the database. At least this time I didn't have to search WP using Google. John Reid ° 10:11, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other Lyrics

In Ruth Lewin Sime's biography of Lise Meitner, the lyrics (IIRC) "when Jewish blood spurts from our knives, we will feel twice as good!" or something very similar are stated to be a part of the Horst Wessel lied. I've seen words to this effect noted in a few other descriptions of the song. But I can't find these lyrics in any official version. Does anyone know how they fit into the song/story of the song? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wiserd911 (talk • contribs) 03:31, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

There were "official" lyrics to the song, which followed fairly closely what Wessel wrote - his manuscript can be seen online. These are as given in the article. There were also many unofficial lyrics, some of which are given in the article. I have seen references to the line you quote, but I have never seen a set of lyrics which incorporates it. Adam 10:25, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

i changed the english translation, it must be "shot dead BY red front and reaction". in the german original "...die rotfront und reaktion erschossen" we have an accusativ and not a nominativ use of "die" (german native speaker)