Talk:Hors d’œuvre

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A list of popular Hors d'oeuvres can de-stubbify this stub. --Menchi 11:26, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Oh god no - not a list. Please not another stubby list. --Mothperson 00:27, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The redirects should lead to the spelling "Hors d'œuvre", as it's the correct one. If I get no objections, I'll change them that way next time. --80.139.60.178 02:13, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

there's a problem, œ can't be used in a page's title. Gentgeen 07:53, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Apparently "œ" can be used after all. The page was moved from Hors d'oeuvre to Hors d'œuvre by User:The Anome on June 28, 2005, thus eliminating the need for the {{wrongtitle}} tag.

— FREAK OF NUR_xTURE (TALK) June 29, 2005 09:18 (UTC)

Sadly, it will have to be moved back, as the ligature use is nowadays unusual. Sorry, ligature-happy prescriptionists, common usage wins in the end. -Silence 20:59, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Or it won't. I don't really care. -Silence 08:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Are you asserting that the ligature is unusual in (a) French, (b) British or (c) American? But what I really wanted to comment was ...

In British and American English, since this is the English Wikipedia, not the French Wikipédia. (see Merriam-Webster, American Heritage, Encarta, Cambridge, etc.) But I changed my mind, I don't really care anymore. Ligatures aren't a big deal. And at least this one has an etymological basis, like Annuit Cœptis; there are much worse offenders out there, like Pericope Adulteræ. -Silence 07:34, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

My point, about which I was really being too subtle, for which I apologize, was that UK usage really does differ from US on ligatures. All ligatures, across the board. You only cited one UK source so I'll see your Cambridge with the Oxford English Dictionary, which is subscription-only online but I assure you it has the ligature. Anyway, what I'm really curious about now is: what is the difference between Annuit Cœptis and Pericope Adulteræ? They're both Latin diphthongs, no? —Blotwell 02:51, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

• I did not pick and choose between dictionaries based on region. I simply searched for all the most immediately accessible, widely-used ones and gave their results. Finding only one dictionary out of 5 (including two UK ones) that's able to support using the ligature isn't very convincing, and Wikipedia is not a slave of the OED. Wikipedians in general tend to overuse ligatures greatly. For some unfathomable reason, some editors clearly derive a deep pleasure from interjecting as many random æs and œs into articles as they possibly can, even where it's clearly unnecessary or even incorrect, causing inconveniences to the typical reader, who will search for articles and items using "ae" and "oe" and so on; he won't go to the trouble of figuring out the alt code for those letters or searching for some to copy-paste just to read an article about appetizers or "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Just look at how many people on Wikipedia use "Wikipædia" and how few use "Wikipaedia" and you can see how ridiculous the ligature overuse is. Where ligatures are without a doubt appropriate is where they're directly quoted from a source that uses the ligature: as can be seen on the Annuit Cœptis page, the Great Seal of the United States, where the phrase is chiefly from, uses the œ ligature. This does not in any way apply, however, to Pericope Adulteræ; this Latin phrase is a traditional medieval description of a Biblical quotation, and the "ae" is and long has been used more often than the "æ"—the only real reason æ was used was to increase writing speed and conserve space. Yet now it's somehow become some sort of bizarre status symbol, a way to look clever and be more "correct" (while ironically being less correct) by using archaic and obsolescent lettering quirks. Very strange stuff. But, as I said, I don't care much about the "Hors d'œuvre"; like almost all ligatures in common words and phrases, it'll be changed eventually, whether tomorrow or five years from now, so it doesn't make much of a difference. -Silence 03:18, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

• I just got a boner reading that comment. Preach it, brother. Njerseyguy 21:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
• Concur. Btw, I added a bullet to the comment above mine to assist with formatting. I hope no one has a hissy fit. Astarf 23:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 Starter 2 Other Languages and Cultures 3 Regional Usage 4 Merger With Entrée

[edit] Starter

... is starter really a synonym? It seems to me that a starter is more an entrée (Commonwealth sense) than an hors d'œuvre. Or is this another example of me being prescriptivist based on French usage? —Blotwell 06:18, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

from what i know/observe is that this word is not used at all in the UK and they use starters instead. - GeckoKid

I have consulted someone who majored in Catering in a UK university, and I have been assured that both words are used, though are not nessescarily the same thing. -Tombrend

As a Brit, I would agree with Blotwell - we use both terms, and starters are entrées, hors d'œuvres are not (see below under Merger heading). In a really formal setting, you would probably hand round the hors d'œuvres with drinks before you sat down for your starter. Tobelia 17:25, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other Languages and Cultures

I changed the "Antipasto" heading to this because it is much more conducive to future additions of hors d'œuvre equivalents around the world. -User:Bantosh 17:07, 7 June 2006

[edit] Regional Usage

Can someone write something about regional usage? I am fairly certain that appetizer is more commonly used in America. --69.86.97.183 15:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merger With Entrée

• I strongly recommend that the article for entrée not be merged into this article, as the significant usage difference in American English (yes, I'm aware this is originally a French word) warrants a separate article. --Astarf 23:27, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I strongly agree. And apart from Astarf's point, I would classify hors d'oeuvres as a different thing from entrées anyway, even in the sense we use it in the UK and elsewhere. As this article makes sufficiently clear, hors d'oeuvres are appetisers which are often pre-meal finger food, whereas an entrée (in the non-US sense) is more of a sit-down starter course. Tobelia 17:20, 22 March 2007 (UTC)