Talk:Horatio Hornblower

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Contents

[edit] Capital and Corporal punishment

"He is philosophically opposed to corporal punishment to the extent that he contrives escape for a crewman condemned to the yard-arm in Hornblower and the Hotspur. This, despite believing that severe corporal punishment (e.g. flogging round the fleet and keelhauling) is the only way to maintain discipline in the face of severe privation." Doesn't this contradict itself? Should the first "corporal punishment" be "capital punishment"? -R. fiend

Yes. Amazing how long obvious errors can go unnoticed, isn't it? --Paul A 05:38, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Also, does somebody have a source for the fact that he belives that extreme corporal punishment is necessary? As far as I can tell, he does use normal flogging (if rarely), but considers flogging round the fleet to be barbaric.--Stephan Schulz 18:33, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
I think it is probably fairer to say that he objects to unjust or abusive punishments. He does approve hangings in soem circumstances, but finds them at bast a distateful neccisity. I don't belive that keelhauling is ever mentioned in the Hornblower saga, and the only commnets I recall about "flogging round the fleet" by Hornblowr describe it as "torture" and as a far worse punishment than hanging. DES (talk) 19:38, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
If I am not mistaken "flogging around the fleet" was typically fatal. So, perhaps we should class it as capital punishment.-- Geo Swan 03:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Early Career

The section on Hornoblower's early career is incorrect, in stating that his exploit with the fireships led to his capture. Hornblower was captured as prizemaster of sloop Le Reve, carrying despatches and a VIP passenger. He inadvertently sailed amongst a Spanish fleet. --User:T Holzwarth

You're right, and I fixed it. --Stephan Schulz 23:09, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Highest rank

Can anyone tell me the highest rank Hornblower achieved? Thanks. --Auximines 12:20, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Admiral of the Fleet, in 1848, when he met Louis Napoleon at Smallbridge --GABaker
In the main novels, he is Rear Admiral of the Red in Hornblower in the West Indies. As noted above, he has a higher rank in some of the posthumously published stories. --Stephan Schulz 18:33, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
I belive that "The last Encounter" had magazine publication while Dorester was still alive, although the book publication (in Hornblower during the Crisis) was after Forester's death. DES (talk) 19:38, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Based on Nelson or Cochrane

Early on the article says, "The character was inspired by the famous British admiral Horatio Nelson." Later, it says, "Hornblower is generally considered to be based upon the historical Thomas, Lord Cochrane." Clearly this needs a little attention, but I don't know enough about the character or the historical personalities to edit this. --Tom Allen 21:53, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Hmm yes, should have noticed that before - Hornblower is actually the opposite of Nelson in almost every aspect of personality and career. Stan 04:18, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Thanks! One more thing: In the Lord Nelson article, there is still a statement that reads, "Nelson was the basis for the fictional characters of Horatio Hornblower and Honor Harrington," along with a link to this article. Again, I'll let someone else handle this. Perhaps there are different opinions about this. Could Nelson have still been an inspiration, of sorts, even though the character is very different? Just wondering. Of course, now I'll have to actually read Forester's series! :) --Tom Allen 02:06, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
That should probably be tweaked too. Of course, the depth of British feeling for Nelson (died heroically at the very moment of a victory that established British mastery for over one hundred years, what more could one do) is such that any British naval author has a powerful urge to put in bits of Nelson mythos. Sometimes Forester seems like he's working deliberately to make Hornblower a bit of antihero, struggling to avoid Nelsonization, for instance when Hornblower does the right thing then imagines it's for the wrong reasons, and beats himself up about it. A bit anachronistic actually - I don't know of any documented evidence that officers of that period thought about themselves that way. Stan 04:20, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
(Many of) Hornblower's deeds are based on those of Nelson and Cochrane. But his character is wholly invented. I changed the article to reflect that. Gdr 10:27, 2004 Aug 5 (UTC)
Indeed, Hornblower has been described as a mid-20thcentuary character in a Napoleonic setting. Many of his private views would have been very unusual indeed for the time. Lord Cochrane, who was one of the inspiriations for Hornblower, was politically "Radical", but I don't think any of his recorded views are as "progressive" as Hornblower's. Still Hornblower's political views are far closer to those of Cochrane than to those of Nelson. For thew matter of that, several of his specific actions (The inshore campaign in Ship of the Line for example) are quite specifically based on Cochrane's actions. Of course, O'Brian's Jack Aubrey is rather more closely and explicitly based on Cochrane, although his politics are rather more conservative than Cochrane's were. DES (talk) 19:38, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
In The Hornblower Companion Forester is quite specific that Hornblower is not based on anyone. He started as Forester's conception of "The Man-Alone" that was the center of history-altering action, but must rely only on himself and the role of Captain of a sailing vessel simply seemed the most likely. As to the deeds and events, on a cruise around the world Forester brought with him a complete copy of the Naval Chronicle he had acquired and was so enamored with its contents that he included them, sometimes wholly, in his books. If Nelson or Cochrane happened to have a great influence on Captain Hornblower it was thanks to their ability to excite the imagination of his creator more than any deliberate attempt to reproduce their lives in fictional form.
Everything in the above paragraph is true--and well cited. Nonetheless, in The Happy Return, Lieutenant Bush explicitly compares Hornblower with Nelson, during conversation with Lady Barbara. Bush is the character speaking, but one can't avoid hearing the author's voice. But in Lord Hornblower, Hornblower himself is appalled at the thought of comparison with Nelson. I would speculate that in the intervening years, Forester learned more about Nelson's character and career and decided they did not fit Hornblower at all.

[edit] Based on Specific historical characters?

Regarding whether Hornblower's career, or Hornblower's character, were based on any specific historical character... I don't believe there are any incidents that are borrowed from the careers of either Nelson or Cochrane.

How Hornblower differed from Nelson
Hornblower Nelson
Joined at 18 yo Joined at 12 yo
Early promotion due to merit Early promotion due to nepotism
Shy Outgoing
Self-deprecating blowhard
Midshipman in 1794 Senior Captain in 1794
Promoted to Lieutenant following Battle of St Vincent Promoted to Admiral following the Battle of St Vincent
Superb Navigator and mathematician Had to rely on more capable officers to navigate
Never commanded a fleet in battle Famous for half a dozen fleet actions

A similar table could be made for Cochrane, or Pellew, or Parker, or Saumarez, or any of the couple of dozen other notable Naval officers of the period. Saumarez, for instance, was the officer commanding the British Baltic squadron during the period CSF puts HH there.

I think you will find that the campaign in Ship of the Line is fairly closely based on one of Cochrane's campaigns. DES (talk) 19:38, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Hornblower Compared with Cochrane
Hornblower Cochrane
Joined at 18 yo Joined at 17 yo
Son of a Doctor, had no influence Heir to a title
Midshipman in 1794 appointed acting lieutenant in 1795
Promoted to Rear Admiral sometime after Waterloo appointed a rear admiral in 1832
Superb Navigator and mathematician Competent seman and navigator; naval inventor
Never commanded a fleet in battle Commanded in only a singel fleet action late in his carrer
Privately distressed by corruption in the Navy outspoken critic of corruption in the Navy

In terms of character may I suggest the reason 20th Century types can indetify with HH was that he was basically a 20th Century man transported to the early 19th Century, so his character will be unlike any real 19th Century captains. -- Geo Swan 19:29, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

I quite agree with this. DES (talk) 19:38, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Agree somewhat. I think he is a typical enlightenment thinker (remember, this is the age of the American and French revolutions - Franklin, Jefferson, Montesquieu, Locke, Paine are well-known figures). Another point: According to my copy of Mr. Midshipman Hornblower, Hornblower joined Justinian at age 17 (or so he claims - it was popular to make oneself older, but not younger).--Stephan Schulz 21:38, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] keel-hauling

Removed reference to keel-hauling: I can't remember any instance and since this was illegal and normally deadly (according to the wikipedia page) I can't see CSF writing H doing or supporting it.

For that matter, he certainly accepts corporal punishment, but definitely approve of it?

I belive on several occasions he disapproves of it in principle but belives it is essential in practice, at least in the conditions of the Royal Navy. Also, when "Midshipman Prince" endangers the ship due to carelessness, Hornblower orders him beaten (or beats him personally, I can't recall which), and muses that one good thing about corporal punishment is the release of feelings it gies to those who carry it out. Hornblower strongly objects to the abusive beatings of Wellard in Lieutenant Hornblower, and they are part of the evidence that the captain ther is a tyrant. DES 1 July 2005 16:46 (UTC)
The prince wasn't beaten; he had trouble sitting down afterwards, but it wasn't especially severe punishment for what he did. Then again, he was a prince. I also can't recall keel-hauling being mentioned at all. Clarityfiend 06:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of characters

The list of royal navy charcters is seriously incomplete, although is claims to be complete: for example, it doesn't list any of the squadron captins from Commodore Hornblower except Bush. DES 1 July 2005 16:46 (UTC)

[edit] More Real Chracters

I added some real historical characters, though there is a much larger list. Some that I could not find in Wikipedia's articles but suspect to be real: Caillard from Flying Colors, Marsden from the Crisis, and innumerable minor officials in Admiral.

Agreed. The four Frigate captains sent out after the Spanish Flota were all real officers. I suspect the captains who convened to examine lieutenants were also real officers. It wouldn't surprise me if all, well most, of the officers at Collingwood's dinner party were real historical figures. My recollection was that Clausewitz was only a Colonel at the time the novel was written. -- Geo Swan 14:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Order of the Hornblower books?

The book articles need infoboxes, but is there a consensus on their order—publishing order vs. internal chronology? —wwoods 22:03, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd prefer internal chronology, although I don't know if this is consensus.--Stephan Schulz 22:21, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd also prefer an internal chronology. The particular version of the series which I read has the titles printed on the back cover using the internal chronlogy, if you feel that's important. MeredithParmer 01:17, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm also in favour of internal chronological order. Sure, there are inconsistencies, which might be less obvious reading them in published order, but they're still there. Certainly the omnibus editions place them in internal chronological order.--Myk 10:52, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I've read and reread them as a kid (and I still do ;-), and while inconsistencies are certainly there, they're not really obvious. Although I always wondered how Bush got from Hotspur to Lydia... --Stephan Schulz 11:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The novels' articles

I've been perusing the articles on the individual Hornblower novels recently, and I noticed that most of them are in need of some work. I've begun general cleanup (e.g. fixing spelling, wording, and wikilinks), but if anyone is willing to help, I'd appreciate it. I think it might be nice to expand the articles about each novel. Sorry for posting this here, but I figured it would be ignored if I put it on the individual talk pages. Thanks. MeredithParmer 09:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I probably won't finish it today, but I'll start on Flying Colours. --Stephan Schulz 09:36, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I'm done. Please take a look. --Stephan Schulz 00:09, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Well done, the article certainly looks much better than it did before. Flying Colours is my favorite of all the Hornblower books, so I'm glad it has a decent article now. I've decided to continue with general cleanup of all the novel articles. I've finished Mr. Midshipman Hornblower and The Happy Return. MeredithParmer 00:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Lord Hornblower" or "Baron Hornblower"?

The book Lord Hornblower does not mention Hornblower's promotion to Baron. It has him, as the name implies, simply made "Lord Hornblower". Unfortunately, the way I read the aritcle's version of the events in that book, he became "Baron Hornblower" while in France. Will (Talk - contribs) 04:43, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an authority, but I don't think you can be 'simply made "Lord Hornblower"'—you have to have a specific title.
Baron says, "Non-Scottish barons are styled The Right Honourable The Lord [Barony]. ... Normally one refers to or addresses Baron X as Lord X and his wife as Lady X."
Lord says, "Five ranks of peer exist in the UK, namely Duke, Marquess, Earl, Viscount, and Baron; and all male peers except dukes use the style "Lord X". The title "Lord" also applies by courtesy to certain of their children, ... Barons, in particular, are almost never referred to as anything but "Lord X". "
—wwoods 05:46, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Somewhere in the novels (I'm thinking the opening to Commodore, where Hornblower reflects on the little village he's got...or is that Lord Hornblower?) Hornblower discusses his choice to stick with his last name rather than do what Pellew did, for example, and become "Lord Exmouth." Hornblower's village was Smallbridge and Hornblower thought "Lord Smallbridge" sounded a bit silly. 152.23.196.162 01:36, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Book and Timeline templates

Unless someone objects, I will create a Hornblower book info block template and a Hornblower timeline template, and add them to each of the Hornblower book articles. I should have time to do this over the weekend. Since I barely know what I am doing, I will copy shamelessly from an existing template set. Arch dude 01:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Captain Horatio Hornblower

I am currently reading Captain Horatio Hornblower in the US and it contains the books Beat to Quarters, Ship of the Line, and Flying Colours. Is this the same for all versions of the book or just some either way the page needs to be changed. Rearete 21:32, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know anything about the omnibus editions (I have the individual books), but the three books you mention are the source of the old Gregoy Peck movie "Captain Horatio Hornblower". Maybe it's a movie tie-in? It certainly makes sense to bundle the three, as they cover Hornblower's relationship with Lady Barbara up to the (first) happy end. --Stephan Schulz 22:02, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I have also read several other of the books in the series and they all mark those three books as being in the book Captain Horatio Hornblower.Rearete 02:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Death

How exaclty does Hornblower's death get pinned in as 12 January 1857? I've read all the novels and,as far as I know, the last short story (in terms of the chronology of his life), The Last Encounter, and it makes no mention of when he dies. (Sonlee 09:09, 5 February 2007 (UTC))


[edit] Just linked to Wm. Bush

Just linked to Bush's article in the "Life" section.

For the record, it was very difficult to figure out how to make the link work properly. =( 152.23.196.162 06:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Where is Marie?

Um, I'm an avid fan of the Hornblower novels (have all of them, still trying to read Commodore and Admiral), and I couldn't help but notice that the life section leaves a lot of stuff out. Most importantly, there is no mention of Marie, the French daughter-in-law of le Comte de Gracay. Since she is incredibly important to the overall story (she was his lover on two different occasions, and she dies in battle at his side in the most tragic scene of the entire series), I just thought someone might want to put some small mention in the article. Thanks. Chrisalbro 23:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

This is just a short summary, more details are in the individual articles, in this case in Flying Colours and Lord Hornblower. BTW, I don't agree about the importance of Marie. She serves to display certain facettes of Hornblower's character, but is not really important for the overall story arc. --Stephan Schulz 23:39, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] GCB or KB?

I thought his...pedigree...I don't know the terminology...Hornblower's a Knight of the Bath, and I thought the letters after his name were KB, rather than GCB. The article on the Order of the Bath says that prior to 1815 there was only one class (KB) and Hornblower was knighted before 1815. I'm not going to edit it until somebody either agrees with me or disagrees and explains why I'm incorrect. =) 152.23.196.162 17:15, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Sawyer

Surely some mention of Sawyers Death is warranted

regards HH —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.110.109.210 (talk • contribs).

It's mentioned in Lieutenant Hornblower. I think that suffices. If you disagree, feel free to add it to the main article. But remember, we don't need to tell the whole story at the very top level. --Stephan Schulz 16:25, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
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