Talk:Hoplite

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Greece; If you would like to join us, please visit the project page; if you have any questions, please consult the FAQ.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.
Additional information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked

	This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Additional information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following to the template call: <!-- 1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points are appropriately cited. --> |B-Class-1=yes/no <!-- 2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain major omissions or inaccuracies. --> |B-Class-2=yes/no <!-- 3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content. --> |B-Class-3=yes/no <!-- 4. It is free from major grammatical errors. --> |B-Class-4=yes/no <!-- 5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. --> |B-Class-5=yes/no Related task forces (periods and conflicts): Classical warfare task force (c. 700 BC–c. 500 AD)

[edit] Programming Republic of Perl

Isn't that the camel from a pack of Camels? Wouldn't it be better if his shield were an "I Like Ike" campaign button? Wetman 14:02, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

wtf? mnemonic 04:21, 2004 Jun 22 (UTC)

Hee hee, very funny. Obviously something developed for Perl promotion, wouldn't be a bad pic if someone blanked the shield, and he met spencer. Better to use something off a Greek vase though, no read need for artistic reconstructions. Stan 13:53, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Artistic reconstructions can be very useful - it would be best to have both. The image used here is one of the standard illustrations of a hoplite, but of course, it usually has a lambda. I'd upload the proper version, but though it seems likely, I'm not sure if it's actually public domain. Josh

well the current image is unverified, perhaps it would be no different if another unverified image were used. and besides, everyone knows the shield should say Python. mnemonic 09:38, 2004 Jun 23 (UTC)

I changed the image. This article is about hoplites, not Perl, the other was inappropriate. --Tothebarricades.tk 23:13, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"one of the standard representations" isn't good enough. the image is almost certainly copyrighted. I suggest change to Image:Greek_Hoplite.jpg. [[User:Dbachmann|dab (T) ]] 19:04, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, that one is good. Stan 06:45, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

ONE Thought. The hoplites of Sparti were the protoype for the Roman Legion, due to thier skill level compared to other city-states. Now is it assumed that Hoplite warfare is this simple, that is hoplite phalynx warfare. We need to wonder about one thing, in reality land, <smile>. What kind of training does it take to remain a civilization as long as the Roamn Empire with "hoplite" methods. I submit that these and other grown adults were more thoughtful than we give them credit for. Lord knows they had the time to think, what with no tv. We need to consult historians on the subject, we need detailed articles, brief, lucid overviews.

First, the Roman legion was based on the hoplites of Etruria (not even indirectly of Sparta), but changed drastically in early Republican times. Second, just because people had time to think doesn't mean they developed sophisticated tactics right away. They practiced fighting, but since it wasn't done by specialists, it had to stay relatively simple. Noone has ever accused the Greeks of being simple, and I think you'll find most historians embelish rather than contradict the summary given here. Josh

While the Spartiatai most certainly was the best trained, it does not mean that they where better by far, or even the best. The Spartan government was such, so that the city-state itself did not follow with the rest in technology, and neither in tactics. Eventually, the famous Spartiatai Hoplitai couldst not stand their ground against the more evolved tactics of the Theban Sacred band, they was even defeated by some skirmishers and slingers at the battle of Leuktra(?). 80.217.145.164 15:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, I doubt the Romans actually copied the fighting style from Sparta, even though they in some way "got inspired", as they where of the first to have an always standing, proffesional, army.80.217.145.164 15:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Importance of cavalry?

The article implies that cavalry were used sparingly, if at all. Whilst this is certainly true of earlier Hellenic warfare, I was somewhat under the impression that Alexander the Great used his cavalry to great effect in flanking manouevers, and only used his phalanxes to pin the enemy infantry whilst the cavalry manoevered. Is this true?--Xiphon 17:43, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Evidently no-one reads this page (sigh)--Xiphon 17:23, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

You are absolutely correct about Alexander the Great, but his phalanxes were not composed of hoplites. siafu 17:26, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

The change in Greek warfare seen in the Peloponnesian War was quite thorough and saw a revision in tactics and general thinking towards the concept of war. Certainly there was a shift away from placing importance with the hoplite, or indeed any heavily armoured infantryman. The renewal of cavalry was borne on the backs (pun intended) of the rise of the Macedonians. Traditionally the Macedonians had favoured horses far more than the early powers. Sparta placed favour in the tried and tested hoplite, Athens in its navy (though it did have a cavalry attachment it was used sparingly and never developed).

As for Alexander he had the benefit of inheriting a highly-skilled cavalry unit. Often his battles required the cavalry on his left to hold a defensive line under Parmenides whilst he pinned the enemy, a gap would soon emerge and he would launch into it. His cavalry won the acclaim, but it must be remembered that no horse will charge at a line of spears, as such his army was very good at creating that "gap" for him in the enemy lines.

[edit] image

why has the image *again* been replaced with something unsourced/copyvio'd? dab (ᛏ) 17:06, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

The current image is not historical; Hoplon wasn't strapped to the hand.

Exactly right. This image is appears to portray the Macedonian foot soldier after Philip II's military reforms (~360 B.C.), not the traditional Greek hoplite of Attica and the Peloponnese.

The new pike (sarissa) introduced by Philip required two hands to weild, on account of its great length (18 ft. 5.5 m.). The lighter pelta shield was strapped around the neck over the shoulder.

The traditional Greek hoplite strapped the heavier aspis sheild over the forearm and carried the shorter 8 ft. long spear in one hand.

Why is there a picture of hoplites fighting in a macedonian style phalanxe called hoplites marching into battle? Phalanx1.png‎

Many of those images are quite wrong, the hoplites did not hold the spear as if in a Macedonian Phalanx, they held the spear over the shoulder with one hand. The Aspis/Hoplon (I doubt Hoplon is the real name as it means weapon, while Aspis is closer to Aspida=Shield) would not have been effective at all if used like in a Macedonian Phalanx, as it would only be able to protect the left side of the hoplite, not the front (Using two hands, that is). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.217.145.164 (talk) 15:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC).80.217.145.164 15:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)