Talk:Honest Reporting

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Contents 1 On Honest Reporting's mission 2 Honest Reporting or honest reporting 3 Recent edits by Jayjg 4 Notes on "Honest Reporting" 5 Last edits to "Management" section seem OK 6 The formatting mess

[edit] On Honest Reporting's mission

The original entry for Honest Reporting read, "Honest Reporting is a media watchdog group that monitors and reports anti-Israel bias." Quite true. This is what Honest Reporting states on their mission statement page, which now has an external link. However, the phrase "It does not claim to monitor or report pro-Israel bias" was added. This does not occur on their mission statement page, and has no external source to back it up. Thus, it would be considered "original research" and either needs to be removed or supported with some external source. It also demonstrates POV, because it singles out the fact that Honest Reporting does not report on pro-Israel bias while ignoring all of the other things that Honest Reporting does not report on. Please stop adding this phrase unless it can somehow be fixed so that it does not violate POV and original research. --ARoyal 18:21, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

To some degree I agree with you, ARoyal. But, as evidenced by the purpose statements that you get when you google "Honest Reporting" +israel, it appears to be operating from one side of the POV in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. However, it is worth noting that if Honest Reporting is generally a partisan organization, it should be noted as such, which is basically what the inclusion of the phrase telling that it does not report bias on the other side of the POV fence does. --Kuzaar^-T-C- 18:27, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, you'll notice that in their mission statement they frame their mission in terms of a "battle for public opinion", which implies that they're not fighting for what they would construe as media bias, such as anti-Palestinian, pro-Israeli bias. Just a thought. --Kuzaar^-T-C- 18:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Thats fair criticism of Honest Reporting. However, it doesn't belong as original research in the introduction for Honest Reporting. Singling out one thing out of many that Honest Reporting does not report on is being used in this instance in an attempt to discredit Honest Reporting. If Honest Reporting has a bias, then perhaps someone should make a criticism section and fill it with verifiable sources that claim such. However, making the claim that Honest Reporting does not report on pro-Israel bias implies that it has a pro-Israel bias, and is coming from the editors POV rather than a verifiable source. It needs to go until it can be supported with a verifiable source, and even then should be in a criticism section.--ARoyal 18:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

OK. —Ashley Y 18:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Its mission statement clearly labels it as a partisan organization, which is not something in dispute. Biased or not, it makes no difference, and its stance, as a partisan organization, since that is its primary mission, merits inclusion in its article. I have no interest in either side of this dispute, but I am of the opinion that in the interest of NPOV, organizations, entities, and people which exist to push a POV should be clearly labeled as such. --Kuzaar^-T-C- 18:48, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Well you can revert my self-revert if you want, I won't change it either way. —Ashley Y 18:50, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I think we all agree that HR reports on anti-Israel bias but not pro-Israel bias. It therefore has a bias (of selectivity) of its own. However, contra my initial edit I think merely mentioning that it reports on anti-Israel bias is enough to reveal this bias to the reader. —Ashley Y 19:08, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Honest Reporting or honest reporting

Ashley, the link you added is not about the organization Honest Reporting. Rather, it is about what the author perceives to be honest reporting in the Middle East. It seems like this is a fallacy of ambiguity; because the article is critical of "honest reporting" in Israel and the Middle East, you've associated it with the group called Honest Reporting. Its really quite misleading. It would be a good link for the wikipedia entry for "media bias", but really has no direct association with Honest Reporting. --ARoyal 09:29, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

It refers to 'so-called "honest reporting" watchdogs', which is a reference to Honest Reporting. —Ashley Y 19:06, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I've added a note to the link. —Ashley Y 19:15, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Zerbisias doesn't state which specific organizations she is referring to; how do you know it is referring to this organization? Jayjg ^(talk) 02:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Zerbisias is referring to a class of organisations, of which HR is clearly an example. The fact that Zerbisias refers to them 'so-called "honest reporting" watchdogs' strongly suggests, but does not definitively prove, that Zerbisias had Honest Reporting in mind. Noting this hardly counts as "original research", and it is enough to make the link relevant, provided that the caveat is included. —Ashley Y 09:52, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

"clearly an example" also looks like original research to me. If you look at the article itself, it devotes exactly two sentences to discussing "so-called 'honest reporting' watchdogs". The article, which claims that "the usual websites" "smeared" a colleague of hers, is, in fact, an emotional smear itself, that adds no fact or detail on the subject or the "smears", and is mostly about an entirely different issue, a "dust-up" between Tony Burman and Norman Spector. Can you explain what it adds to the readers knowledge about Honest Reporting? I'm having a very, very difficult time seeing the value or relevance. Jayjg ^(talk) 14:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with Jayjg here. That's a weak reference, and may refer more generically to "honest reporting". Arab Media Watch has the same problem. They're a pro-Arab media watch organization. There's also an "Arab media watch" from the World Union of Jewish Students, with a viewpoint from the other side. And another Arab media watch from the New York Jewish Herald. That's a similar confusion. --John Nagle 18:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits by Jayjg

I'm rather bothered by these, which seem like POV whitewashing. Jayjg, you have removed useful background information on the director and a link to a critical article which is clearly referring to these kinds of organisations collectively and alludes to HR specifically.

I don't know so much about the BICRC and Engage issues. —Ashley Y 22:53, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm concerned about the materal too, but because it seems irrelevant at best, innuendo and smearing at worst. None of the material had anything to do with Honest Reporting, which is the subject of this article. The idea that Honest Reporting is one of these kinds of organisations is the kind of conspiratorial smearing I am referring to - original research at best. The material (Ephraim immigrated to Israel in 1998, dedicating much of his time to setting up the Israel office for Hasbara Fellowships, which is now the largest network of pro-Israel activists on campus throughout the U.S. and Canada, and of which he remains a Co-Director. Co-founded by the Foreign Ministry of Israel, they have trained 1,000 student leaders on over 100 campuses, to produce strategic, ongoing advocacy programming designed to swing the tide of public opinion towards Israel.) is all about other organizations, and stuff Shore did before joining Honest Reporting. It's not "helpful" to anything related to Honest Reporting, unless, again, you want to do more conspiratorial smearing. If you want to create an article about Ephraim Shore, and imagine it could survive AfD, feel free to put that information in and article about him. As for the Zerbisias link, I'm not the only one who as objected to this link - see above. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The information about Shore tells the reader what bias can be expected from "Honest Reporting", and that's valuable information. It's properly cited, it is a direct quote from the organizations's own web site, and it should stay in. It shows that the organization might well be a form of astroturfing. Jayjg's insistence on the deletion of this information helps to demonstrate its importance.

The Zerbisias article is more general, and one could argue about that one. This doesn't mention "Honest Reporting" as an organization, it mentions "honest reporting" as a concept. (It's a confusing organization name. Amusingly, Arab Media Watch has the same problem from the other side.) --John Nagle 16:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The fact that you claim it shows "what bias can be expected" and that is "valuable information" is poisoning the well and a violation of WP:NPOV. Your attempt to show "it might well be a form of astroturfing" is a violation of WP:NOR. This article is about Honest Reporting, not about Shore; please restrict your conspiracy exposing crusades to a blog or personal website, not Wikipedia. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Jayjg, I think you misunderstand the concept of "original research". If we actually put in the article "this might be a form of astroturfing", that would count as original research. Putting in information which is well-sourced and not disputed, so readers can make up their own minds on the matter, is not original research. Likewise, the information comes directly from the organisation's own website, so has no other POV than that of HR. I think removing this counts as whitewashing. —Ashley Y 21:44, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, trying a different approach - very short bios of the top four people, with all info from HR's own site. --John Nagle 23:08, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

OK. —Ashley Y 22:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

It would be quite wrong to suppose that Jayjg doesn't understand "Original Research". The problem is ours, we don't understand it. As he told us "WP:NOR is a rather subtle rule that a number of people, including most inexperienced editors, simply do not get." [2] 3rd Oct 2006 and "I've been editing here for 2 years, and have made 40,000 edit, I suspect I'm rather a better judge of what's appropriate for a Wikipedia article than you are." [3] 8th Aug 2006. (The rest of these discussions make fascinating and educational reading too. Unless you're actually looking for a tutorial that would enable us to become better editors and not have our edits constantly reverted). PalestineRemembered 13:55, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notes on "Honest Reporting"

I'm collecting info here; some of this may go into the article later.

• "Honest Reporting" donor list info. 13,539 names on list, average donation $56.60. That gives the organization some credibility as a grassroots organization.
• "Honest Reporting" website. Check out their keywords: <meta name="keywords" content="Honestreporting media bias against Israel middle east press coverage Israeli-Palestinian conflict mideast Palestinian media bias watchdog monitor pro-israel hasbara middle east reporting media AP Reuters bias roadmap mideast peace mid-east">
• List of pro-Israel information sources Not itself a reliable source, but a useful list of links. "Honest Reporting" is listed.
• Pro-Israel forever Israel flag-waving site (literally; full of animated waving flags) with list of "pro-Israel links". Again, not itself a reliable source, but useful. "Honest Reporting" is listed.
• Hillel at Stanford has a list of "Advocacy and Policy" links, from the ADL to the ZOA. "Honest Reporting" is listed.

--John Nagle 18:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The donors info looks OK to me, but other items in your list seem pretty useless: the tag meta keywords is for search engines, this is not how they define themselves. A bunch of activist lists (not WP:RS, as you have noted) do not mean much. Hey, maybe I should add it to my favorite Trekkie blog... ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 08:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The effect of those meta tags is that if you search for reporting "pro-Israel", "Honest Reporting" comes up at the top of a Google search. If you search for reporting Israel, you get CNN. It's amusing, but not a big deal. --John Nagle 16:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Last edits to "Management" section seem OK

After much disagreement, Jayjg's last minor edit to my edit to the "Management" section is OK with me. I think we've reached a consensus on something. --John Nagle 16:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The formatting mess

Edits since March 17, 2007 have made a mess of the formatting. The references and links section is now in bad shape, and there's the text "rank distortion……….scurrilous assertions" which may be a quote, but it's not clear. I've added a cleanup tag.

We may need to go back to 03:20, 17 March 2007 SlimVirgin to clean up the mess. The content is roughly comparable to what it was then, but the formatting now is much worse. Revert to there and go forward, or clean up the current mess? --John Nagle 04:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Unless someone cleans up the mess within the next few days, I'm going to revert the article back to the last clean-looking version, 03:20, 17 March 2007 SlimVirgin. --John Nagle 19:44, 5 April 2007 (UTC)