Talk:Homestead, Florida

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Contents

[edit] Boom

The city is currently experiencing a building boom due to scarcity of developable land in north and central Miami-Dade County.
Please providie the source of information, the exact years, and some hints why it is "boom". mikka (t) 20:59, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Page protection

Hi everyone, as you probably have noticed, I have protected the page due to the current edit war. Please try to settle your differences here on this talk page; if you find that you cannot reach a consensus, please use the Wikipedia dispute resolution process. As soon as your differences are sorted out, either let me know or put up a request for page unprotection at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. -- Schnee (cheeks clone) 21:01, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi, Schnee, IMO page protection is a bit too trigger-happy soluiton in this case.

Both you and Muchosucko fail to talk at the talk page in the first place. IMO, an anon is not familiar with wikipedia rules. Even if he is a suspected spammer, the primary approach in the case of non-outright vandalism is to assume a good faith and to try to talk to a person and listen to rationales.

Agruments must be presented at talk page, so that they can be discussed. "Edit summary" should be used for its direct purpose. Write "see the talk page" there, if you want to discuss something.

If a side fails to listen to reason, a possible solution will be to block the naughty editor, rather than the page. mikka (t) 21:46, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I was just soliciting an Admin here for a 3rd party to judge whether I was doing the right thing or not. I have no point to push. I was not expecting the page protection (though its nice :D). I live in the Northeast, and I don't care about Homestead. I'm just suspicious of someone using Wikipedia to promote a private real-estate development.--Muchosucko 21:52, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I also noticed that schnee was asked for mediation, not for protection. I was asked for this to, and I started doing what I was asked for at this talk page.

I am going to unprotect the page, to see if the parties are reasonable. If not, the page will be protected again. mikka (t) 21:51, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I disagree that protection was the wrong thing to do - looking at the page history reveals that there has indeed been an edit war for quite a while and that obviously, no consensus would be reached anytime soon (or at all) by the involved parties. Protecting the page, in a case like this, is simply a measure intended to *force* both parties to cool down and discuss things instead of duking it out in the article.
For that matter, I don't think I was being asked for mediation, either (I'm not even a mediator) - I was merely being asked to help resolve the whole conflict, and I think protecting the page, while not actually helping with that in itself, is a useful measure to make sure that the involved parties discuss things instead of keeping on reverting each other's edits.
Of course, if you think that protection the page isn't the way to go, feel free to prove me wrong - I do, however, predict that once the page is unprotected again, the edit war will simply resume. -- Schnee (cheeks clone) 00:23, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

I would like to say that the entries I made were completely factual. I live in the city of Homestead since Nov 2003 and can see the growth that is taking place. House prices have gone through the roof and the people moving in are paying upwards of $300,000 for a 3 bedroom house, definately not poverty level. The statistics on this site are dated and cannot be relied on. Here's some current reference information: http://money.cnn.com/best/bplive/snapshots/39621.html The census data is incorrect and cannot be relied on same goes for the MSN and Google Maps and Satellite Shots. I wasn't even able to find my house on MapQuest, Google Maps, or MSN Maps for over a year. The services that provide all the reference data do not update their information frequent enough to keep up with the growth levels in South Florida. Homestead is the 9th fastest growing city in the Country for cities over 25000 residents here's the reference article: http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/12018998.htm. In reference to the blogs, they offer a window into the lives of people living in the city being referenced. All the links provided are not advertisement they are a reflection of the new face of Homestead. I look forward to resolving this dispute amicably. User:Angel Lazo (User talk:Angel Lazo) 03:11, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

I hope you have read some comments below about why some external links are frowned upon. Blogs, message boards, forums, etc., is particular, since they usually are not the source of reliable information.
You say: "census data is incorrect". I suspect you wanted to say "census data is outdated" (the article says that it is for 2000).
I hope you are a reasonable person and I am unprotecting the page, so that you may add new information. Since there was a contention, please be ready to quote the source of your information. I hope you understand that the sources must be reputable: blogs & forums no go. Also, I'd like to repeat again: please avoid adding external links as much as posible: the main reason is that wikipedia has no control over their content and even their existence. The latter is especially true for various news reports and newspaper links. Most of people who can read wikipedia can use google as well.
mikka (t) 02:31, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
You say that prices are around 300,000 per house. The ref. you cite at cnn lists Homestead median house price as 163,000, half the median price of the "Best places" index. I am honestly confused. Unless you can cite something that refutes the MSN article, the facts you offer are hearsay -- i.e. you are tell us that Homestead "feels" like it is "booming," and not that it is, in fact, booming. The Miami herald arcticle does reassert my suggestion that Homestead is not "booming," but rather: there is a lot of construction to rebuild or resettle on cheap real-estate ("more house for less money," the article says). I'm looking at the Miami Herald article. And I still cannot understand why you include links to Key's Gate. The article mentions it once. Again, I cannot see why Wikipedia includes it into the article - perhaps you should add a paragraph that describes the influence Keys Gate has had on the community, and support it with economic evidence. I have presented the most recent demographic data I can find, and it does not cooperate with your assertion that Homestead is an economic miracle. Perhaps you can cite more suitable data. Cordially--Muchosucko 03:26, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] POV, spam edits

The problem seems to be that Keys Gate is a private, for-profit, gated community. Its golf clubs, and private blog seem to be real-estate advertisement rather than information that might help an encyclopedia browser. Please see the attempted ext links additions:

http://www.keysgategolf.com/ http://www.keysgate.com/ http://www.keysgate.blogspot.com/.

I'd say the same thing goes for Waterstone.

You say: The city is currently experiencing an unprecedented building boom due to scarcity of develop-able land in north and central Miami-Dade County.

It's hard to believe. I'm looking at the demographics of the area: The per capita income for the city is $11,357.; 31.8% of the population and 29.1% of families are below the poverty line. And most importantly: [http:// tinyurl. com /9mx7s MSN Demographic info on largest group of people living in zip code]. A large portion of Homestead inhabitants are very poor. Refer to the PRIZM Neighborhood type demographic information here. It seems like you are tooting your own horn rather than trying to present a NPOV description of the town.

There is likely a lot of construction to rebuild or resettle on cheap real-estate, but the word "boom" is kind of POV. --Muchosucko 21:11, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Please avoid assuming bad faith. Please ask for confirmations, rather than simply express disbelief. Usage of phrases like "hard to believe", etc. will inevitably alienate the second party. The ultimate goal is to deliver a correct and encyclopedic information into the article, rather than to defeat an opponent. If the party fails to provide confirmation, you don't need to go emotional.
Also, please avoid the term spam in such cases. Spam inn wikipedia would be if an editor posts the same link or text into multiple irrelevant artices.
To the anon contributor from IP 68.70.11.33:
please keep in mind that in wikipedia the burden of proof is on the person who adds information. There are also other rules of editing. mikka (t) 22:02, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Also, RE the external links, Wikipedia is explicitly not a business/community directory (#7), nor a web directory (#1). Also, I don't see how they meet any of the 'do/maybe' external link criteria, and arguably meet 'don't' criteria. They also don't seem appropriate per Wikipedia:Contributing_FAQ#Is_it_OK_to_link_to_other_sites.2C_as_long_as_the_material_is_not_copied_onto_Wikipedia.3F--"Keep in mind, however, that Wikipedia is not a web directory; external links should support the content of the article, not replace it." As for the other claims, as the edit page says, "Please cite your sources..." Niteowlneils 23:02, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

On reviewing the links, I concur entirely. A forum, an uninformitive commercial cite, and a registration-required newspaper article; all are unsuitable. This falls squarely within our definition of spam. I've left him a spam1 message; if he persists in leaving these links we'll quickly progress up the spam template ladder. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 23:25, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
Dear angry friends, while I agree with you (I removed these links myself), please keep in mind that we are talking with an unexperienced contributor here. All what you are saying now should have been said much earlier, and it is quite possible we would not have this revert war (or may be we would).
As for "our definition of spam," I sugget you to re-read Wikipedia:Spam. While it is a guideline, it is not being vague, and I don't thing this is an omission. The editor in question seems to be adding these links as a confirmation of the statement that the place is experiencing rebirth. Also, golf and tennis club may well be an attraction of the place; if you disagree, please explain why. mikka (t) 23:52, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I have read the guidelines and will leave the blogs out. Also here's more updates on the median home sales for the first quarter of 2005. By the way I've tried the links provided above and some do not work. Reference: http://www.dqnews.com/ZIPFLDADE.shtm User:Angel Lazo (User talk:Angel Lazo) 09:20, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Boom

This website shows the roughly 20 to 40% increase in median home prices. This is expected. If you notice, a 20-50% increase in median home prices occurs in 80-90% of the zip codes listed on that webpage. I don't understand what your point is, please explain the point of your data - how is the median increase in price unusual? or how does it constitute a boom that is special for Homestead? The median increase in homeprices on the entire graph is 27.3%. The median increase in home prices for all the zips in homestead is 30.5%. --Muchosucko 11:15, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

The 30% rise in property values represents a boom for the city's tax base. Homestead once again is gaining a middle class that experienced an exodus after Hurricane Andrew in 1992. In comparison to the rest of South Florida the rise in property values may seem relatively equal; however nationwide the rise in Homestead's property values does reflect an impressive milestone. It's no wonder Homestead was was rated 9th in growth nationwide for cities over 25,000 in population. The next census in 2010 will reflect a significant demographics change on all categories. User:Angel Lazo (User talk:Angel Lazo) 15:30, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

The average increase in real estate prices rises across the nation it's been a boom for the whole country really; +25% in Orange Couty, +24% in Phoenix, +30% in Sacramento, +33% in Las Vegas. If you live in a house, you'll find that your house probably appreciated in value. Real-estate prices always rise - it makes everyone feel richer, but in reality, since every house rises in value, it remains a level playing field.--Muchosucko 18:27, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
You are right if you have only one house, to live in. But if you have real estate as an investment, you do become richer. This is a general rule of capitalism: if you do nothing, then if you are rich, you grow richer, if you are poor, you become poorer. mikka (t) 19:31, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Funny you mention that, I do own real-estate, and it has grown at abou 30% original value. My assetts have grown approx 30%. I also collect higher rent prices. Unfortunately, due to inflation, the services I pay for also increase. So, no I can't see how I'm richer. I have more money in numerical terms, but not in purchase power. --Muchosucko 19:40, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Let's concentrate here. Prices is not very relevant to boom, although may be indicative of demand. The real indicator would be the amount of construction. Did it increase rapidly recently? mikka (t) 19:33, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Here are examples of why Homestead is experiencing a boom, reference this article: Tax break might be in works and this one: Boom Town. The city has never had the tax base that it has now. The boom is happening for several reasons besides higher prices and number of units built. The building of middle to upper middle class housing is much greater where in the past the development was mostly a disproportionate share of low income housing when compared to other cities in the county. Essentially the city is balancing its demographics that will in effect maintain a sustainable tax base once all the construction has subsided. User:Angel Lazo (User talk:Angel Lazo) 14:12, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

I will conceed there is a building boom in Homestead. Not from Miami Herald articles, but from US. Govt. census data. [http://censtats.census.gov/bldg/bldgprmt.shtml Select "By Place", Florida". Having said that, I still can't understand why Key's Gate is here. You're going to have to show that Key's Gate is some how significant. Linking to Key's Gate is like writing an article about America's booming economy and only linking to Ford Motor Companies. It seems biased.--Muchosucko 17:17, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Keys Gate and Waterstone are the two communities in Homestead with the highest concentration of new homes being built. I would have liked to add Waterstone as an external link; however, they do not have a central website to define their community besides their blog. User:Angel Lazo (User talk:Angel Lazo) 21:22, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
If adding a link to Keys Gate is terribly significant to you, then I suggest you add a paragraph into the main article describing this private- real-estate community's impact on the town. I suspect it is quite small. You should not do it just for Keys Gate, but every private community in Homestead. But I think it's a bad idea to throw the link into the article without any explaination. --User:Muchosucko 22:39, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Muchosucko, the problem here is that you base everything on your own assumptions or outdated websites. You need to give people who live in Homestead a wider latitude for their opinion and personal experience for what actually goes on in the city. Keys Gate provides a great portion of the tax base as does Waterstone, in addition it provides a great portion of the voting base, that in itself makes it a distinct part of the city. Coincidently, it's not by chance that four of the five council members up for election this year held their re-election fundraisers at the Keys Gate Golf and Tennis Club. By the way this is the only Golf Club within city limits. I believe there might be 26 golf courses in Miami-Dade County but not in the Greater Homestead Area. The other nearest golf course is the Redlands Golf Course, which is about 10 miles away, definately not in Homestead. User:Angel Lazo (User talk:Angel Lazo) 02:28, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Angel, please do not mistake my suspicion for insult. I am interested in the integrity and accuracy of this article. I base my assumptions on the latest non-biased data -- the 2000 census. You will notice that I conceeded the "boom" to you based on 2005 census data. You are right however in your second assessment: I think "personal experience" and "opinion" cripple this article. Again, it would be wise to convince readers about the importance of Keys Gate in the article before inserting a link.--Muchosucko 01:47, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Muchosucko, I do not take insult to your "opinions" and believe you have made assumptions on outdated information. Personal experiences with supporting documentation as I have provided with web links are valid, and may be questioned by more accurate data in the future as more data becomes available. Is this encyclopedia not a living document that may be updated my users and changed accordingly through time? Census data from 2000 is hardly accurate for a city that essentially has been transformed in the past three years. Should we wait until the 2010 Census to update this page? I think not. So in regards to your "opinion" that this article is "crippled" by my experience, I believe it to be a little short sighted on your part. When I visited Barcelona, Spain last September, I went online to gather information regarding history, geography, travel experiences in that particular city to include hotel recommendations. I found that it was valuable information that was most accurate down to the bus stops. While this is not a travel guide however, once again a personal experience proved to make all the difference. I think my updates have made the threshold of viability for this article and I have conceeded on the blogs and newspaper articles as the rules do not allow it. (User talk:Angel Lazo) 07:53, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
I am not trying to be hostile. Links like Keys Gate must be justified. Again, it would be like writing an article about the american economy and only linking to Ford Motor company. It would make sense to write a simple paragraph explaining why linking to Keys Gate is important to you. That's all the disagreement we have now. I don't understand why you are raising issues that I no longer worry about.--Muchosucko 07:02, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Muchosucko, thank you for restoring the page to the previous edition. Keys Gate's importance to Homestead began as a Canadian Company's development for retirees only. It is encompassed within a Development of Regional Impact (DRI) which is regulated by the state for zoning and density due to its size. The Company was called Florida Design Communities and they went bankrupt due to Hurricane Andrew. Years passed and finally in 2002 the area began to blossom as developers began to run out of land north of Homestead. In 2002 I was looking for a house since I got tired of living in a 1 bedroom condo in downtown Miami and decided to get the most house for the money. I headed as south as the mainland would take me and found this sleepy community in Homestead. I liked what I saw and thought others will too. Other continue to come and it seems like there's no end in sight.

(User talk:Angel Lazo) 22:53, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I was looking for another type information. For example: Keys Gate was responsible for 70% of the single housing permits issued in 2002-2005. This community has been a major contributor to Homestead's building boom. That would have been enough -- then it makes sense to enter the Keys gate link and maybe even golf course at the bottom. As it stands now, it sounds like you are living in Keys Gate and enjoying it. That's great, it's important to you, but why is it significant to homestead and the Wiki user? and why are you are raving about Keys gate and not Waterstone or some other development??? The answer should be impersonal, and it should be in the main article -- not the talk page.--Muchosucko 01:08, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Good Point, will find the statistics on that. When I get it I'll add it to the page. (User talk:Angel Lazo) 02:53, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, it's been 9 days, and there's no action. I'll remove it until you can bring the statistics we agreed must be submited.--Muchosucko 13:42, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rocket testing?

Hello everyone. I just moved to Homestead about two months ago. I live very close to the AF Base, in Campbell Drive. I would like to ask a question to users who have lived here longer than me: every night you can hear a tremendous roar, as if a rocket engine was being tested. The sound seems to come from the direction of the Air Force base, but I do not believe they are running engine tests there. Does anyone know of any manufacturer/plant that could be producing this sound? Just to give an ideia, when it comes on (lasting for about 10 seconds each time, about three times every night), car alarms go off, probably from the vibration in the air. I'd appreciate some input on this, it has me stunted! Quase 01:34, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


nope not rocket testing. we live right near the base in the waterstone marbella bay complex theyre just finishing up on. theyre fighter jets. you hear them warm up for awhile and then a really loud launch as they take off. they usually do them in sets of 2 or 3. sometimes ill look in the direction of it when they take off because its pretty impressive. quite a roar. i even heard a sonic boom once. im imagining they launch over the water so the thrusters are aimed directly at us as they fly out over the water. btw, just want to say hi fellow local wikipedier. CiXeL 11pm 5/17

Talk pages are for discussing articles. You will have a better chance of getting answers at the Reference Desk. Dr Zak 01:36, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I know that, but do you really believe I would have found someone who lives this close to me and know what Im talking about in the general Reference Desk. Anyway, if this was against the rules, feel free to remove the complete section (I believe more people have this same question that I did, tough). And thanks CiXeL for the answer. Quase 00:10, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
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