Talk:Home Nations

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Contents

[edit] Outside UK

It would be a bit silly to use the term "home nations" outside the UK, if you think about it. --Cap 17:48, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Examples

I can't remember hearing this used (I'm British). Are there any actual examples you can point us to, where it's been used? WikiUser 20:51, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It's usage is pretty rare and the term is a little old fashioned, so it's getting rarer. It's meaning is quite specific (refering to all four nations of the UK collectively, but as separate entities). Like the article says, sport is where the term is mostly used (as England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland often compete separately). Therefore a football highlights programme could say that it was going to say that they would be showing highlights from all the Home Nations' matches. Of course, 'Home Nations' could easily be replaced by 'British teams' or 'UK teams' and those phrases have been prefered in recent years. Here are some examples of the term in use (one sporting, one not):
81.174.247.96 13:44, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)
A google search for site:news.bbc.co.uk "home nations" results in 1,880 results. You have to search through to the 60th result till you find one that doesn't directly relate to sports. Of the first 100 results, only four do not relate to sports. AlistairMcMillan 22:34, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
As far is I know there is just one national skiing association for the UK, which includes England, Scottland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Therefore it wouldn't make sense to use the term Homeland Nations in skiing. --131.130.1.143 17:58, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I've heard the term a few times before (I'm a New Zealander.) If you arrange them in a certain order, it makes the acronym "wise." Scott Gall 18:14, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Here's some news for you: arranging England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales does not make you wise! --Mal 08:29, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Explanation of reverting

I reverted User:Mais oui!'s edit with the explanation that it was 'complicated and added POV'. Mais oui! then reverted back and accused me of vandalism (which is certainly lying and could be considered a personal attack). I'm reverting the changes back again and will explain them in full here:

  • Changed 'constituent countries' back to 'constituent parts' as that is the official term used by the UK government; furthermore, the constituent countries article makes it clear that they do not include Northern Ireland and is not therefore a synomnym for 'Home Nations'
  • 'Its usage is rare outside the UK' changed back to 'its usage is rare (especially outside the UK)' as the term is also fairly rare within the UK (this has been discussed before)
  • 'Nation' changed back to 'part' in the Cornwall section to avoid using the word 'nation' twice in the same sentence
  • 'Country or nation' has been changed back to 'nation' in the Northern Ireland section - the article is talking about nations and not countries; half the point of the term 'Home Nations' is that it doesn't describe Northern Ireland as 'country', but as a 'nation'
  • 'Probably inaccurate' has been changed back to 'perhaps inaccurate' - 'perhaps' is a much more neutral word and therefore does not introduce POV

- Green Tentacle 18:46, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

On the contrary, the Constituent country article makes it clear that Northern Ireland is indeed regarded as a constituent country. --Mal 08:37, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to remove sentence regarding Orkney Movement and Shetland movement

User:82.109.88.66 has inserted the following sentence today:

"Shetland and Orkney also have small movements, which advocate their being separate nations from Scotland."

I propose that this passage is removed for the following reasons:

  • As far as I understand it the Shetland Movement became defunct sometime around 1997, and a quick Google turned up no recent evidence of the Orkney Movement. They (Orkney and Shetland Movement) are listed under Category:Defunct political parties of the UK. Neither is registered as a political party with the Electoral Commission, and neither has a website.
  • In addition, neither supported independence, but rather greater autonomy, and, far from being "separate" they had an electoral pact with the Scottish National Party for many years - Orkney and Shetland used to be the only scottish constituency the SNP did not contest.

In short, I can see absolutely no evidence of any political movements in the Northern Isles that advocate "being separate nations", either defunct or still extant.--Mais oui! 19:32, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

As no-one has any further information on this topic I am removing that sentence from the article.--Mais oui! 17:01, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merger with Constituent Countries

I've removed the notice for this article to be merged with Constituent Countries, as the two terms mean different things. Home Nations includes England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Constituent Countries includes only England, Scotland and Wales. There doesn't seem to be any case to answer for a merger. If anyone disagrees, feel free to add the merge notice back and start a discussion.

[edit] Celtic Frontier or County Boundary?

Added the following link

Bretagne 44 14:48, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Reversion

I have reverted to my earlier edits, as the summary given by the editor who reverted them is blatantly dismissive. "Over-complicated" is a ridiculous exaggeration of the more accurate and careful introduction to the article.

Ireland as a whole is still one of the Home Nations in rugby, was the original fourth nation, and its inclusion is complicated only due to recent political developments (relative to the history of the four nations of the British Isles).

Northern Ireland's new role as the successor to British Ireland in the line-up is clearly defined - no attempt is made in my edits to hide the fact that it serves as the fourth nation nowadays in many (but by no means all) instances.

zoney ♣ talk 16:57, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, I'd like to say that I find it incredibly rude that you did not bother to tell anyone that you'd put an explanation on the talk page and then had a go at me for not replying to it. Are editors meant to be psychic now?
Secondly, I want to stand by my point that there's no point in mentioning Ireland in the first paragraph. Ireland, as noted later in the article, is not a Home Nation and calling it one is incorrect (even if it is common). Mentioning it in the first paragraph adds to confusion (though there's no reason for it not to be mentioned later on). The point of the first paragraph is to say what the topic is as briefly as possible. This means referring to the contemporary usage, and not referring to any old-fashioned usage first (see gay, for example).
Older stuff does not belong in the first paragraph. Hence, the George Burley article starts with his current job as manager of Southampton, rather than his job as manager of Ayr United. If you're going to put older stuff in the first paragraph, you'd better say that the Home Nations were originally England and Wales; then England, Wales and Scotland; then...
However, the first paragraph is a lot more managable now that part of it has been moved elsewhere.
Nevertheless, people reading this article want to know what the current Home Nations are, not every minor historical detail. - Green Tentacle 22:46, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Home Nation is an archaic term. As such the proper form (the original one) should be introduced first. The partition in Ireland is the only reason for the modern confusion of the term - and in fact, were there only one football (soccer) governing body on the island - there probably wouldn't even be an issue at all! I am reverting this back to the more technically correct, and indeed far more careful (my version does not dismiss the modern usage of Northern Ireland rather than Ireland, but rather merely follows on with that fact from the earlier sentence).
The Home Nations are more cultural and traditional divisions rather than political distinctions.
My request to "please reply" was merely to initiate discussion - I wasn't suggesting you should have read my comment earlier - indeed I hadn't posted it at the time of my earlier edits.
Also, for future reference, it is not proper form to mark reversions as minor edits.
zoney ♣ talk 13:36, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
So a term still used in comtemporary official government documents is archaic. Okay...
The term is still used now and refers to England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Its usage has always been rare.
The term is not a sporting one and, personally, I think think that this article spends far too long discussing its use in sports and when it is incorrectly applied to certain sports.
Finally, do you have any evidence at all that the term was even in use when all of Ireland was part of the UK? The only way in which your version would be accurate would be if the term was introduced after the union with Ireland (1801), but before the creation of Irish Free State (1922). - Green Tentacle 18:37, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes - the term is still used now, but referring to Northern Ireland. There's a good reason for this - the rest of Ireland is no longer British!
As to your early date of 1801 - that's not at all linked to the concept of nations. Just because Ireland was self-governing (although only in a devolved sense) prior to that - does not mean it was regarded as any less British. The concept of the four nations in the British Isles is centuries old - even if the "home nations" term is not (although I think it is fair to say the term is older than 80 years!)
zoney ♣ talk 21:36, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes - the term is still used now, but referring to Northern Ireland.
That's exactly my point - the article should reflect that and not a historical usage that you still have not proved actually existed. - Green Tentacle 21:48, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I haven't bothered to look up proof because it is elementary that the term "Home nations" could only realistically have been coined while Ireland was under a single jurisdiction. The four nations of the British Isles are and have been for recent centuries, Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales. The harp in various British emblems/arms represents Ireland - not "Northern Ireland" - even if that area now takes the role of "British Ireland".
Since you insist on at least one source - here you go (I'm sure there's more, and in various contexts - but why should I search this just to please you - one disgruntled editor who seems ignorant of the historical concept of Ireland as one of four British nations?):
From [1]
The Home Nations was in fact the world's first international football tournament and between 1883 and 1984, home nation pride was up for grabs on 89 occasions, with only war in Germany and civil unrest in Ireland stopping the event taking place.
Please also see the article British Home Championship - to see that it is quite clearly Ireland that is one of the Home Nations before 1921/1922.
zoney ♣ talk 18:42, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I have seen the British Home Championship article as I created and wrote most of it. And, as you can see by the article, it was called the British Home Championship - the term 'Home Nations' was not part of the title. The 'Home' bit referred to the four football associations who organised it all being based at 'home' - the UK. It was often unofficially called the Home Nations Championship (or various variations of such), but, again, I have no idea when that nickname was introduced.
Anyway, I'm not saying that the term Home Nations wasn't in use when all of Ireland was part of the UK. As I've mentioned before, it could well have been in use when only England and Wales were in union. The point is, it is a term to describe the four parts of the United Kingdom, not the four parts of the British Isles (which, as you know, mean different things).
I am not ignorant of Ireland's history as part of the UK, but I know the contemporary use of the term includes only Northern Ireland and the article should reflect that.
Nevertheless, rather than just revert the article, I have re-written part of it to highlight Ireland's history as a Home Nation, but not emphasise it above the current correct usage. - Green Tentacle 19:32, 8 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Ulster (Northern Ireland) is a nation.

Ulster (or 'Northern Ireland') is a nation. Between 1921 & 1972, it was the only one of the 4 British nations to have its own Parliament. It was self-governing like a Dominion to a certain degree. Legislation passed by the British Parliament in London had no force in Ulster, unless it was extended to Ulster with the consent of the Ulster Parliament, which passed a Bill to extend Imperial legislation. - (Aidan Work 01:46, 29 December 2005 (UTC))

A state is not necessarily a nation. An antithesis is that the Kurdish nation is split across Turkey, Iraq and Iran, yet the Kurds are members of those states. The Irish nation is similarly split across two jurisdictions (ignoring the Republic's extra-territorial claims that existed before the Belfast agreement). Prior to partition, regardless of how British the Irish were or weren't - they were all quite simply Irish.
The concept of Northern Ireland is a nation is not widely embraced - hence why most in the North will describe themselves as Irish or British (rather than "Northern Irish"). The area covered isn't even the north of Ireland - it's the northeast. And it only covers the majority of Ulster - not the whole of it (even if one considers some parts of the three Ulster counties in the Republic to be more Connaught or Leinster historically - the most part of those counties have always definitively in Ulster)!
Bringing in Ulster-Scots into the equation - historically that is most attached only to the east of what is now Northern Ireland.
Northern Ireland has no proper identity that is actually linked with the state - despite it's most close links within the Union over recent centuries. It is an arbitrary boundary drawn by the British to avoid all out havoc (more than there was) after independance for most of the island.
zoney ♣ talk 21:32, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Home Nations is not a political descriptor

My revision to the entry says:

"Home Nations is a colloquial term sometimes used to refer collectively to the four constituent parts of the United Kingdom (England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland) or to all the self-governing nations or states of the British Isles. It is not a political term (e.g. one that signifies or implies governance of territory) and its usage is rare (especially outside the UK)."

Concise, accurate, uncontentious. Leave it alone please. PaddyBriggs 09:37, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but Home Nations is a political term, though an out-of-favour one. There are links on this page to the term being used in UK government documents. Saying it is all of the British Isles is innacurrate because it isn't! 'Home' refers to the UK. The Republic of Ireland would certainly never describe itself as a Home Nation. The article already covers the fact that sometimes (especially in sports) the term is misunderstood, but, vitally, points out that this is a misunderstanding, not an alternative meaning (well, at least it did before half the content was removed). Moreover, you're definition says it can refer to 'all the self-governing nations or states of the British Isles'. Seeing as Northern Ireland is not self-governing, that makes the definition even more wrong.
Furthermore, Wikipedia is not paper, so there's no need to be concise, especially when it is to the point of being misleading.
So it's not concise (it's misleading), it's not accurate (it's plain wrong) and it's certainly not uncontentious. - Green Tentacle 19:55, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I was going to change it back after writing this comment, but somebody seems to have beaten me to it. - Green Tentacle 19:58, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

The Republic of Ireland may not describe itself this way but then the UK does not describe itself this way either. The IRFU uses the term 'Home nation' on its webpage to describe its team and RTE also uses this term for the rugby union team. I suspect that the term is not much used by anybody outside sport.GordyB 22:53, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit wars

Rather than simply deciding what should or should not be on this page unilaterally. Perhaps it might be an idea to discuss it.

a) the similar terms IMO should be there so that people who were mistakenly looking for Home Counties can understand that this is not the same as Home nations. b) the rugby union section should be there in full. It is not sufficient to say that Home nations compete for the Triple Crown. It is true but they also compete take part in the B&I Lions and host Grand Slam tours. 'Home nations' is an utterly obscure and archaic term little used outside sport. There's no particular point in having a seperate article without mentioning the sport fully.GordyB 11:53, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

GordyB. I also find the Home counties etc. bits not really relevant and would be happy to see them go. Don't feel that strongly, but I don't think that they add much. PaddyBriggs 16:30, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

They don't add a great deal, but I think there should be at least a 'see also'. You and I know the difference between 'Home nations' and 'Home counties' but users of Wikipedia aren't necessarily from Britain / Ireland or may not have English as their first language. To them these terms are indeed similar and may cause confusion.GordyB 14:19, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, and done! PaddyBriggs 14:59, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

More edit wars. Please don't simply delete other people's work without giving a reason. Some of the new version IMO is worth keeping, especially with regard to the dictionary reference and the other sports that use the term 'Home nations'. I agree that political uses of this term are extremely rare but you cannot simply delete those sections without a discussion.GordyB 20:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Also I think 'British Isles' is better avoided, it is far from a neutral term.GordyB 21:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I have checked carefully and cannot find a reference to the term in any reference book or by using a search engine other than in a sporting context. New User

I've moved your comment from the top of the page to the bottom otherwise continuity would be entirely lost. I agree that I have not heard the term used outside of sport. I think the point is that it may have been used in a non-sporting context in the past. Home for example is used as being opposite to abroad i.e. the Empire and it is also used in 'Home Office' and 'Home Secretary' for example. Would those who feel that these sections should not be deleted please justify their inclusion?GordyB 15:03, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I've done it myself this pdf on UK citizenship clearly uses the term 'Home nation' in a geographic sense (top paragraph page 4). Not a political sense though as although it being a UK conference the RoI was also represented.GordyB 15:32, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cornwall not part of the UK?

The second paragraph appears to say that there is some debate over whether Cornwall is part of the UK. Surely this is not what was intended? TharkunColl 07:02, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

You're right. I've reworded it. - Green Tentacle 21:49, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The obscure Cornish issue

Whether or not other encyclopedias feel the need to discuss the Cornish issue is not the point. The point is that under the 'googleability' test, it gets enough hits to justify its inclusion.

It may be a minority opinion (probably even in Cornwall) but it is not all that obscure.GordyB 12:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

You could say the same about any regionalist group. Vote to take out Cornish irrelevance. There may be an issue which should be represented in wikipedia, but this is not the platform to display it. --Dumbo1 01:38, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

You could not say the same of any other regionalist group in England. No other county has any significant nationalist movement.GordyB 14:10, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "nations" of the British Isles

POV issue again. I think removing the inverted commas implies that England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland definitely are nations and everybody agrees with this. Celt and English nationalists would agree with this view, but British unionists would not. In their view (probably a minority these days) England, Scotland, Wales and probably Northern Ireland are regions and 'the nation' is the UK or GB.

Another problem is that the idea of Ireland as a nation is not universally accepted either. Irish nationalists would certainly see it this way, but Northern Irish unionists don't necessarily agree.

I also think 'British Isles' is too controversial a term to be useful.

I have reverted the deletion of the inverted commas around nations to show that this is something that not everybody agrees about and deleted the reference to British Isles.GordyB 12:38, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

There are tens of thousands of references confirming that England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland are nations. --Mais oui! 19:56, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
There are just as many that say that they are not. I'm trying to keep this article as NPOV as possible. Most these days would say that E, S, W and I are nations but this is not a universally held opinion and the article should not imply that it is. I'm not wedded to the inverted commas and if you can find an alternative wording then that's fine by me.GordyB 20:00, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I have given up long ago trying to get some sense into this entry, but for what it's worth I have researched the term "Home Nations" extensively and have found virtually no substantive reference to the term except in a sporting context. It is certainly not a political term and it never has been. The word Nation is often used to refer to a sporting team and therefore I agree with Mais oui! that England, Wales, Ireland and Scotland are nations in the sporting context to which Home Nations refers (IMHO). They are nations in other contexts as well, of course, but there is understandable contention over a divided Ireland's status. In a sporting context Ireand is (sometimes) two "Nations" (Association Football), sometimes not (Rugby Union). If we keep politics out of this entry then the problem goes away. And politics should be kept out of the entry for the reason in my first sentence above! PaddyBriggs 11:54, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
The vast majority of references to home nation are for sports purposes. I don't have any objection to a wording that states that E, S, W and I are nations in the sporting sense. They are not nation states in the political sense i.e. an independent England, Scotland or Wales does not exist, an Ireland does but it is not a 32 county Ireland. Perhaps a different wording is a possibility.GordyB 12:30, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I've had a go but the article really needs a synonym for 'collectively', it's been used twice and jars.GordyB 13:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Would a simple 'together' do the job? - Green Tentacle 22:25, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. The best solutions are always the simplest.GordyB 15:12, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Ireland is certainly a nation, whether England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are nations may be debatable. I feel that they are with the exception of Northern Ireland which is a region of the UK. The term British Isles should be deleted, as it is far to controversial Iolar Iontach 19:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Whether it is the island of Ireland or the Republic of Ireland which is a 'nation' is highly debateable, it is also extremely debateable whether given E, S and W as nations why NI could not be considered in the same way. If Britain is a 'federation' of E, W and S then it makes no sense for NI to be a region - it is neither part of E, W or S. Anyway this is precisely the sort of debate that I am trying to keep off the page. This has been analysed in depth in other places and a further analysis of it here would be disproportionate.GordyB 13:18, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "unofficial"

Irrelevant. Most geographical terms in the UK and Ireland are unofficial in the sense of not having any legal backing. The question is who uses the term; the answer is that it is used not only by the press but also by the BBC and other appendages of state such as the various sports bodies. I think we're getting worringly close to a 3RR here, which would be bloody stupid. EdC 20:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The term 'constituent countries' is official, the fact that home nations is not an official term is one of the key differences between the two terms.GordyB 09:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
How is it official? Do you have a reference for this? EdC 12:52, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
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