Talk:Hollywood blacklist

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[edit] New Proposed Sections

OK, in addition to some other restructurings I'll be doing, I'm going to propose adding some other sections, including:

- Contemporary artistic responses to the blacklist; this would include items considered both pro and con, such as the making of "Salt of the Earth", "High Noon", "On The Waterfront", "The Crucible", and other artistic works made at the time that were (and are) thought to have been a comment on various aspects of the blacklist and McCarthy era.

- A general blacklist timeline; would begin with the Waldorf Statement, and include "watershed moments" up until maybe the 70's, when the late of the blacklisted writers got direct credit (like Ring Lardner for "M*A*S*H), and movies around that time that directly addressed the blacklist era ("The Way We Were", "The Front").

- Contemporary entertainment figures involved in the blacklist who weren't blacklisted themselves; this would be people like Walt Disney, Ayn Rand, etc.

- Present day controversies from the blacklist era, specifically mentioning the controversy and response surrounding Elia Kazan's honorary Oscar presented in 1999.

Any comments or suggestions for this, please speak up. --Dh100 21:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Overview Sourcing and Veracity Issues

OK, I just noticed that the Overview section contains allegations that "the Hollywood Ten were acting under orders by the Communist Party" and that their counsel was also paid for by the Party. I am totally unaware of any evidence for this. If somebody can provide sourcing, it can be reverted. However, I'm removing it for now.

--Dh100 22:42, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questions as to Sourcing and Veracity in the Opening Paragraph

Hate to bring this up, but I have some objections/questions when it comes to the opening paragraph.

"The Hollywood blacklist was a group of film actors, directors, and screenwriters in the late 1940s and early 1950s, including at least ten who were members of the Communist Party USA (CPUSA), who were investigated by the House Un-American Activities Committee for communist activities based on information gleaned by the US and UK governments via the VENONA project (cryptanalysis of messages sent by several Soviet intelligence agencies to cells in the West)."

My comments on this are as follows:

- This opening gives the impression that the Hollywood Ten were active members of CPUSA at the time they were called before HUAC. As I recall, this is inaccurate. Many, if not all, were CPUSA members at previous moments in their past, but I'm not sure if I can recall any who were members at the time they were called before HUAC, or even at any time in their recent pasts.

- The reference to the Venona decrypts is very misleading, and quite frankly, inaccurate. There is ZERO evidence I'm aware of that the Hollywood Ten were targeted due to information given to HUAC from Venona. The big case I'm aware of where Venona was involved at the time was the Alger Hiss affair. Like McCarthy's infamous "list of names" (yes, I'm aware he was NOT on HUAC), Venona often gets glommed onto all sorts of stuff, onto contemporary events where it has no place. For example, while McCarthy's proponents tend to claim that Venona "vindicated" him, there is not a whit of evidence he was ever given so much as a scintilla of Venona intel, and his scattershot approach identified a few persons also tracked in Venona, but there's no evidence at all this is due to anything except accident. In a more salient vein to this article, I'd like to see a cite that ANY of the Hollywood Ten are so much as mentioned in the Venona decrypts at all.

--Dh100 23:31, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Update: a quick Google confirms what I suspected as to the involvement of Venona decrypts in the cases of the Hollywood Ten; it is essentially ZERO. The only cite I've been able to find for involvement of Venona in the cases of blacklisted Hollywood and entertainment figures as a whole involves Walter Bernstein, who was NOT a member of the Hollywood Ten. Even in his case, a rather arch-conservative source says that "the recently decoded “Venona” documents suggest that Walter Bernstein, one of those blacklisted, had offered information to the NKVD more than once." In other words, Venona doesn't contain any information of blacklisted entertainment figures being active Soviet intel assets, let alone specifically the Hollywood Ten.

Unless anybody has any objections, I'm going to make my first Wikipedia edit be a reworking of the opening paragraph to better fit reality.

--Dh100 23:42, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've performed my first edit on this. Let's keep Venona the heck OUT of this, as all it does is muddy the waters considerably, and in fact is a wholly specious and fact free assertion, one that frankly borders on accusation. Let's stick to what we do know, that being the facts in the case are that the Hollywood Ten were called before HUAC, cited for contempt, and jailed for it. Others were blacklisted due to non-cooperation with HUAC, or due to heresay or other items, factual, unfactual, sourced or no (being listed in "Red Channels," etc). The ONLY sourced mention of any blacklistee being mentioned in Venona decrypts is in regards to Walter Bernstein, and it was in regards to an alleged promise that he would "write a report" after interviewing Tito for "Stars and Stripes" during WWII; there were no followups in Venona to this. There are ZERO mentions of blacklistees in Venona in regards to their work in Hollywood.

I'll be making additional edits to this article over time, as while it does a decent job of giving an overview on the subject, other paragraphs aren't particularly well constructed and could use work as well.

--Dh100 02:16, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question on sentence

Ten of those subpoenaed refused to give evidence, citing their First Amendment rights

Should this be Fifth Amendment rights? Deco 2 July 2005 23:46 (UTC)

No, that was the mistake they made. (On advice of legal counsel) Had they taken the Fifth, they would never have been convicted. They appealed, but the Court ruled they weren't protected by the First Amendenment. After them, everyone takes the Fifth. Ted Wilkes 17:34, August 8, 2005 (UTC)


Re edit: 20:55, July 15, 2005 Nobs01 (blacklist was by producers who were members of MPAA, not the federal government (HUAC doesn't even have enforcement powers as what would be an executive branch function,assuming its Constitutional)

They were only cited, not convicted but the blacklist was implemented immediately. The appeals weren't exhausted until 1950, meantime there was more three years of investigations and more and more people blacklisted. 17:34, August 8, 2005 (UTC)


Much later, when anti-Communism became less fashionable, they were sometimes portrayed as heroes for their defiance of the committee.

Portayed can be a synonym of impersonate. I think the word evokes a connotation that they were not heroes, which is not neutral. How about: Much later, when anti-Communism became less fashionable, some considered them heroes for their defiance of the committee. 9/19/2005

[edit] Not sure it fits.

While I am certain that Michael Jackson might have greater difficulty pursuing his career as a result of his recent legal troubles, I don't know that he belongs on a list of Hollywood Blacklistees, and refering to his profession as a child molester, seems to me to be approaching vandalism.

-

You mean "Micheal Jackson"? This was part of some ongoing childishness from IP 204.100.180.37.

Elvis Presley and Walt Disney were blacklisted, couldn't find work, starved to death, and died in obscurity as victims of the Red Scare. Wow. Learn something new everyday. nobs 18:31, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Added Belafonte to blacklisted artists. Also - what about Dixiechick issue?

Chuck from Japan here.

I noted that Belafonte had not been included in the list of blacklisted artists, so I added him.

Another comment/suggestion about the title and relevant broadening of scope. The title suggests that the blacklist was limited to Hollywood, although we all know it included people like Belafonte, Seeger (whose name was on the list of blacklisted artists here). I don't propose changing the name, but at least it should be made clear that the blacklist went far beyond Hollywood, and in that sense, I think the list of blacklisted artists could be greatly expanded.

Second, and even more importantly, this all seems to be treated as a historical issue, but isn't blaclisting alive and well in the United States? I refer, of course, to the issue of the Dixie Chicks and the chilling "signal" sent to all other artists. Shouldn't there be some discussion about the fact that blacklisting to some measure is alive and well?

Also, I understand that Michael Moore had trouble getting his film distributed. In the context of the "modern blacklist," perhaps some mention could be made of this. I think this is a great article and could be even greater if it is put in the broader contexts of the arts in general and history versus present. What do you think?

Cheers


In case anyone else is unclear about this, "The Hollywood Blacklist" refers to a particular set of people who were blacklisted during a particular historical period, due to real or suspected Communist beliefs. It's not about any random entertainer who has gotten into trouble of some sort because of his/her beliefs or statements.
Re. Harry Belafonte, as far as I can determine he was never blacklisted in this sense of the word. He became very politically outspoken, and has caught some flack for his statements, much more recently. KarlBunker 00:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article?!

Good Article?! This can't be serious. The only reason I came to the discussion page was to see why it hasn't been marked as needing cleaning up. Sentences are unclear, acronyms aren't identified, Ideas are fragmented and disjointed, and even punctuation is missing!

"The Hollywood blacklist stemmed from events dating back to the 1930s" - This should at least have a small overview of what type of events. (not to mention being a link to the 1930s)

"In October of 1947, a list of suspected communists...were summoned to appear before the House Committee on Un-American Activities..." - The list was summoned, or the people were?

"Witnesses such as Budd Schulberg and Elia Kazan either felt it was patriotic to expose others or, out of fear for the consequences of non-compliance, named names." - Should this be removed as speculation?

I am just listing these to show why I feel this is not a "good article." I also feel that before this can be considered comprehensive, a list of works directly affected by the blacklisting should be added. I am going to mark it as needing cleaning, and clean what I can. Bitoffish 18:36, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added E. Y. "Yip" Harburg, composer to blacklist

Chuck, Japan

[edit] the story of the rat kazan not added?

Im impressed that the story of Elia Kazan is missing, the rat Kazan, who was so happy to rat out some of his colleages to the HUAC, ruinning promissing careers of his colleages and how later he recieved an honorary oscar for his achievements, although everyone know that it was to forgive what he did (the academy is very sentimentalist about these things, or else, if it was only for achievements, Leni Riefenstahl would had got an honorary award a long time ago for his breakthrough in film making). The article is missing this key story, wich belongs to hollywood folklore.


Leni Riefenstahl was a woman! (-: Hebron 06:41, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other questions and comments

Question to Ted Wilkes: were all ten native born American citizens? Nobs01 28 June 2005 16:02 (UTC)

[edit] No story on that commie busting Kazan!

for same reasons as above, but thought I would just like to correct the sympathetic pinko and claim he was a anti-pinko whitsleblower!

RomanYankee(24.75.194.50 16:50, 23 August 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Holding place for mooted "Contemporary references" section

Not clear at all if this section is desirable--certainly not in its stubby state. It merely distracts from the serious historical content of the article. If someone is interested in working it up, with an edifying discussion of how the blacklist is treated in these examples of "modern popular culture," have at it:

Contemporary References
The blacklist continues to be an common theme in modern popular culture. Films like The Majestic and the television program Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip use the blacklist as a backdrop in plotlines.
This section is a stub. You can help by expanding it.

—DCGeist 08:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm usually tolerant of popular culture sections, even though many of them are just backreference trivia. (If "what links here" had a better interface, or could be annotated ... hmmm.) In this case I'm surprised there isn't more, but maybe it was cut back at one time. Obviously there are a fair number of films that directly depict the situation and others that allude to it more generally. What's fascinating here as an opportunity is the real way that the blacklist ideological battles continue to be fought within Hollywood -- for example, the treatment of Kazan at the Oscars. Some of the same people are still alive and scoring points as it were. So this could actually be a full-fledged section closely related to the article, rather than a seeming afterthought. --Dhartung | Talk 10:39, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Linking Issue

Just a small thing. I've never edited before and don't know how, so I'll leave it up to someone more competent. The link near the bottom to others blaklisted has a link to a Joseph Bernard. The link then goes to a turn of the century french sculptor. I actually knew the man; he was a Jewish-American actor and teacher who had many connections in the theatre world and served in World War II. So...maybe that link should be deleted, or whatever it is that happens. Thank you! 24.253.47.205 23:37, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

And thank you! Correction made.—DCGeist 00:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
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