Talk:Ho Chi Minh

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Featured on Template:March 2 selected anniversaries (may be in HTML comment)

Contents

[edit] Marcus Garvey?

Is there a source for the statement that he saw Marcus Garvey speak in Harlem? The wording of the statement is quite vague as to whether ho actually saw him or not.

fucking sex

[edit] vandalism

apparent vandalism in first couple of paragraphs, please remove.


[edit] Ho Chi Minh in Brazil

fucking sex I know it may sound a little odd, but Ho Chi Minh actually was in Brazil in the beggining of the 1920´s and lived here, in Rio de Janeiro, for some months. There are registers of this. What is unknown is why was he here - after all, he was already an employee of the Comintern. The Vietnamese embassy in Brazil is conducting a research in order to make this moment of his life more clear. Therefore, I believe this should be mentioned here.

[edit] Revert 9 Aug 2004

The reason for my recent reversion is explained at User talk:198.26.120.13. Please try to adhere to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 21:03, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It is true that many South Vietnamese regarded him as a dictator, but many didnt. There were huge supporters of the communists in the South, and that what made the South with American support lost the war. Please remember that fact. Please dont say something like the South Vietnamese hated him, and the North Vietnames loved him, because its not true!. Some liked him and followed his idea, some didnt, that's all

Uh guys, please... I can find only one mention of the Vietnam/American war in this article. Surely this was an important part of his life? Is this historical short-sightedness or just too controversial for people to agree on?

[edit] His Names

Where did we get the claim that Ho Chi Minh means 'He Who Enlightens'? That isn't accurate. It doesn't really--Bnguyen 10:42, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC) "mean" anything at all, any more than Lyndon Johnson means 'linden tree whose father was named John'. Shorne 03:20, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ho Chi Minh more accurately means "Ho who enlightens." Since it is an alias, I think Ho must have chosen it for its meaning. Also, Vietnamese names often have clear meaning, and parents who name their kids usually name them in the hope that their children will embody the characteristics described in the names. DHN 07:16, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

While Ho used various pseudonyms, his original name, according to the Vietnamese government was Nguyen Ai Quoc.--Sentience 03:26, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Nguyễn Ái Quốc was most likely a pseudonym. It means "Nguyễn the patriot". The Encyclopedia Britannica said that his original name was Nguyễn Sinh Cung. DHN 03:35, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone know the translation of the "Five rules of Bac Ho", which are taught to every child in Viet Nam?

ok so he changed his name after he went to china. i can understand how his new name has meaning to what he stands for, but why did he change his surname also? the surname really has no meaning.

He wants to pose as a Chinese person. While Ho is a common Chinese surname, Nguyen is obviously not. DHN 21:35, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Was he born Nguyen Tat Thanh or Nguyen Sinh Cung? Are these the same name? Is there a preferred way of transliterating Vietnamese? Help! Mswake 13:40 Sep 10, 2002 (UTC)
No, they're not the same name. He was orignally named Nguyen Sinh Cung; Nguyen Tat Thanh, Nguyen Ai Quoc, Ly Thuy, and Ho Chi Minh are aliases that he, like any good communist, used. The Vietnamese language uses the Latin alphabet, so there's no need for any system to tranliterate names, all you need is to remove the diacritical marks. 128.195.100.178 02:38, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC) -actually, its not a communist thing. its a chinese thing. if u look at fidel castro, he only goes by fidel castro (he is communist by the way). its quite common for a chinese person to have several names. its also quite common for a chinese person to give himself a name, which ho chi min did. chinese also have honourary names and so on.

I am not positive, but I believe Ho is the surname of a very good Chinese friend of his. Through some circumstance he adopted the surname as part of his new name. By the way Nguyen is a Chinese surname, cognate to Ruan(阮). Both Korean and Vietnamese names are based on the Chinese naming system of an originally Chinese clan name and a given name (which says nothing about these groups' respective ethnic origins). Notably however, Ruan is quite rare in China so people with the surname Nguyen in Vietnam are more likely to be ethnic Vietnamese rather than Chinese who have emigrated to Vietnam and changed their names to the local pronunciation. Prouddemocrat 11:46, 15 March 2006 (EST)

If he wanted it to be Chinese, why is it pronounced 'Ho' and not 'Fu' or 'Vu'? There is the Cantonese surname transliterated as 'Ho' (He in Mandarin), which is not the Vietnamese 'Ho'.

A little thing to mention, actually to make it clear
Nguyen Sinh Cung is his birth name, considering his father's name Nguyen Sinh Sac (similar surname I guess). Nguyen Tat Thanh is the name he received in a traditional Confucian fashion promoting a boy to an adult. Nguyen Ai Quoc is the name he used whilst oversea. Ly Thuy and Ho Quang are the names he used whilst staying in China (I'm not too sure about this), can anyone make it right?Hawkie 17:56, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


Methinks the opening paragraph needeth cleaning - could his many names not be presented in a slightly more elegant way? elvenscout742 20:30, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yeah. You're right. We'll take it out for now and introduce them later in relevant topics. --Factus 07:31, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photography of Ho Chi Minh

-Ho Chi Minh is a very inspirational leader, noted by some Vietnamese and other Anti-Communist has not a true Nationalist because of his belief in communism.

-Eventhough, his end result was to unite Vietnam, under one government.

-His photographs of him laying in state is very inspirational, and if anyone knows of how the government operates, you can be arrested for taking a photograph. The importance of this is very viable and we here at wikipedia should share this with the the people.

-For Example having a photograph of Lenin or Mao, lying in state would be very inspirational to have here, because they are Icons and the significants to have this leaders photographs shows the humanity and the duration of the life lives on with the connection that tourists, followers or just historians cn view is significant.--Bnguyen 10:42, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Interesting reasons. I'm personally bias against him because I fought for the United States against North Vietnam from 1968-1970--198 05:29, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It seems inappropriate to have a photo of Ho Chi Minh dead as the leading picture. There is a picture of Lenin dead in his Wikipedia article, however it is not the first picture shown. — J3ff 01:19, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I agree, and feeling bold, I just moved the pictures around. I removed some of the captions to make things fit better, but whoever can improve stuff, feel free ;) Shanes 01:42, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I also agree, and was going to rearrange the images (stacking all three at the top broke the layout on my browser), but Shanes beat me to it. Every biography article I've read here uses a portrait as the first image if one is available, and I don't see why this one should be an exception. —Charles P. (Mirv) 01:50, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I agree. Alive should be the leading pic of anyone. In-state should just accompany the 'death/rememberance' section. Niteowlneils 16:50, 10 Feb 2005

This image was deleted by the OrphanBot app. Anybody know where it came from? What would the proper tag be for an "official" photo of Ho Chi Minh from the government of Vietnam?

DJ Silverfish 19:44, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revert 21 March 2005

I reverted User:203.120.68.68 (talk)'s addition of the following text:

The decision to wage this war was not for the people of Vietnam but to satify the greed of his alliances, Soviet and China. Instead of setting peaceful negotiations he stupidly pursuit war which led to more than 3 million death of Vietnamese people. He made Vietnam and center of entertainment for the whole world enjoy watching and reading news of the war for decades.

and

But the real truth has been revealed, he slept with many women and his real offprings are kept highly secret. Nong Duc Manh has been identified his son which came from the period Ho Chi Minh stayed in tribal villige. Discussion of this will lead to jail for sure. --Silas Snider (talk) 04:47, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

What do you mean by "Instead of setting peaceful negotiations". please state it clearer! Please also show your source of evidence :)

[edit] May 2 Quote

  • "In (Lenin's Theses on the National and Colonial Questions) there were political terms that were difficult to understand. But by reading them again and again finally I was able to grasp the essential part. What emotion, enthusiasm, enlightenment and confidence they communicated to me! I wept for joy. Sitting by myself in my room, I would shout as if I were addressing large crowds: "Dear martyr compatriots! This is what we need, this is our path to liberation!" Since then (the 1920s) I had entire confidence in Lenin, in the Third International!"

Can we find and attribution for this? The poster may have known, but is too anonymous to have a user page. The only place I could find the quote on line was here: http://www.lcsc.edu/mlevine/PDF/ehesscbd3.PDF. DJ Silverfish 22:12, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

The quote is from Ho's article "The Path Which Led Me To Leninism" written in 1960 and published for the 90th anniversary of Lenin’s birthday, in April that year. The full article, albeit with a slightly different translation, is posted on line at <http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/ho-chi-minh/works/1960/04/x01.htm>. William Duiker refers to the quote in his book on Ho. Vichminh 16:39, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Writing style

chaunpq@netscape.net Who first created this article and is the original source file still in the database? The language in this article makes me feel like it's written by someone who is not very good at English or is written by a child.

The text has been changed many, many times since the article was originally created. The simplistic language is a product of the frequent need to find compromise. DJ Silverfish 18:55, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] I'm a Beast???

I'd really like to know what the deal is with the line, "His most famous quote is 'I'm a Beast'." I tried to edit it out, but the line doesn't appear in the source code.... and I'm a tad confused. If anyone could remove it, I'd be quite appreciative.

beast - taken care of - nevermind

[edit] Requested move

Ho Chi Minh -> Hồ Chí Minh Cultural imperialism to use German and Polish diacritics and not Vietnamese double diacritics. See also Talk:Ho Chi Minh City

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
  • Oppose: the diacritics is too clunky and not familiar to most English speakers. Even Ho Chi Minh himself used the non-diacritic version when communicating with English speakers [1] DHN 02:02, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Support Diacritics are allowed on Wikipedia, and it's not as if the article is going to change to chinese script or anything. Don't really see a problem with this, a redirect will do. Gryffindor 12:40, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Undecided: Can you supply a reliable source indicating that those diacritics are what Ho Chi Minh himself used? Otherwise this is original research. --Bk0 13:13, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Oppose: As no reference has been given, this whole debate is original research. --Bk0 12:51, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
It is clear that the normal Vietnamese representation of his name is Hồ Chí Minh. I don't think there's anything going on here that would fall under Wikipedia's policy on original research. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 16:52, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
It is not clear, as I (along with most of en's readership) has no idea what proper Vietnamese diacritics are. Therefore a reference is needed. --Bk0 (Talk) 00:19, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
How about vi:Hồ Chí Minh? Vietnamese should know how to write his name in Vietnamese. Or is that not what you mean? Markussep 09:02, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
See the linked image in my original vote. DHN 19:31, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
The thing to note on this image is not the typed text but his signature which is presumably the only thing which he wrote. It is comparatively clear and we can see that there definitely is a mark over the o. It is questionable whether there is anything over the i (neither a dot nor a comma), but since the o is clear I think we should support the mark over the i as well. Edinborgarstefan 09:34, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
That's actually a cursive o. DHN 19:53, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Your absolutely right, it's a cursive o, I used to write my cursive o's like that (I don't write cursive anymore). And also it looks like he just connected the i's dot to the h, so Edinborgarstefan reasoning seems quite flawed. Mark 14:12, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose En:Wikipedia is supposed to be in English. Neither ồ nor í are English characters. --Henrygb 21:18, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
    Not that I support this proposal necessarily, but your explanation is not a valid justification. There are thousands (perhaps millions) of instances of non-alphabetic characters in the English Wikipedia. Consider all the mathematic and scientific use of Greek letters, for instance, and the aforementioned European diacritics. --Bk0 22:54, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
    My reason is as valid as any. And I am talking about page titles. α redirects to Alpha (letter), as it should. --Henrygb 23:13, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose This is an instance of WP:Point. English usage should prevail; when you have convinced the community of English speakers, WP will change. (For what it's worth, I oppose the impoaition of German and Polish spellings too.) Septentrionalis 22:34, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Support Edinborgarstefan 09:34, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose -- on the English wikipedia, stick with the spelling most common in English. Jonathunder 14:22, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose: preposterous. CDThieme 17:25, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. I buy the Polish analogy. Since we have an article at Lech Wałęsa I don't see why we shouldn't have an article at Hồ Chí Minh. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 12:32, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Support as it is a personal name, and not one of the types with traditional English forms (classical authors, biblical figures, saints and European royals). up◦land 09:52, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Although I'm generally very much in favour of using original spelling, these Vietnamese characters show up as squares on my PC (IE 5.50, Windows NT), no matter which encoding or font I choose. I'll change my vote if there's something simple you can do about this. Markussep 11:58, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Use English, not a crazy character I can't even see. Via Egnatia
  • Reluctantly oppose, because the characters (especially the doubly accented "o", probably) cause problems for a significant number of readers. If the accents were harmless, I would support the move. Eugene van der Pijll 22:23, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose for the reasons given by Markussep and Eugene van der Pijll (and with the same reluctance). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 12:38, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This is how his name is nearly always written in English. – Axman (☏) 04:37, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Use English on the English-language Wikipedia, jguk 09:14, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. What jguk said, with a lot of sympathy for Via Egnatia's point, as well. FWIW, I would oppose Lech Wałęsa over Lech Walesa, Reykjavík over Reykjavik, and most any other use of diacritics, as they are almost NEVER the 'most common' name used by native English speakers. Montreal and Quebec, for example, both lost their diacritics for that reason. Niteowlneils 05:39, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Ok enough of this talk. For those of you who doesn't know, it is wrong to consider Ho as a nationalist. Don't just read books from the VCs and watch those movies on Vietnam war on TV, but look for the facts yourself. And by the way, [Nguyen Ai Oc] is not his name. He stold all the credits from a group of people who were really the nationalists in France at the time called "Nguyen Ai Quoc" and named himself. It is an insult to call him by Nguyen the patriot. Oh one more thing if you don't know anything about the comunists or what the Americans did to South Vietnam then don't open your mouth!!!

Okay.... First of all the comment at top is completely ridiculous rubbish. Second of all, Nguyễn Tât Thanh was not an alias, but a name he received due to Confucian traditions. --Ionius Mundus 17:11, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

As you seem to think that you can do it better, let's see you put your actions where your edits are.

This article is very careful to mention (in some detail) the actions of his supporters (calling him "Uncle Ho", mourning him, etc.) and leaves the distinct taste that it is providing only one side of a controversial figure. Where does it provide for the massive criticism Minh has received? You know, Not everybody loved Ho as much as the author of this article wants us to think. Millions of Americans, South Vietnamese, etc. DO regard him as a repressive communist dictator.

South Vietnamese regarding Ho Chi Minh as a repressive dictator.... That's funny considering Ho Chi Minh died in 1969, six years before the NVA conquered the South.
What is the problem? I think both Stalin and Hitler were repressive dictators without being neither German nor Russian. Prezen 18:04, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Where will this be mentioned. In the article itself? In a link?

I will not revert the edits you have made YET. I challenge you to balance this thing yourself.

ANTI-COMMUNIST, why don't you get a regular username and sign your postings with ~~~~, so others can follow your posts and know who's talking? It would help a lot. Thanks, Cecropia | Talk 19:39, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

For the record, I have not been an active editor of this article. Actually, I did not add any of the content that the anon is calling into question (hence my removal of the to 172, from anticommunist heading). If he thinks he sees slanted content in the article, it's best to fix it, as opposed to adding yet more slanted content adapted to his ideological comfort zone. 172 04:26, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

  • I'm sympathetic to the technical argument. Hopefully these characters will be more generally accessible in a few years and we can start moving Vietnamese pages en masse :) - Haukur Þorgeirsson 22:36, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
I bloody well hope not. :-/ Mark 10:52, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
On my computer at home (Windows XP, IE 6) they show up nicely, but not here at work, where I can't change anything. I guess I'm not the only one. It's not just the Vietnamese characters, also polytonic Greek and the Indic scripts (well, I wouldn't want those in article titles). The Cyrillic, Georgian and Armenian alphabets and Chinese, Japanese and Korean show up nicely, on the other hand. Markussep 11:20, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
That part about "famine struck Vietnam ... while wheat was exported to France out of charge", I think it needs citation, or else we should delete it.
        • it was not wheat that was exported to France, it was rice. Crackyhoss 18:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Add any additional comments

Request not fulfilled due to lack of consensus. Rob Church Talk 12:56, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Model for Communist leaders

Ho Chi Minh is fine example of what a communist leader should have been. As far as I'm concerned I haven't read a bad word about him, either on genocide, bad policies or corruption. Am I missing something?

Ho Chi Minh is what Mao, Stalin... should have been, maybe communism wouldn't have failed.

There are bad parts about him, but they have been purged from the article. See the disastrous land reforms attemped by North Vietnam. Also, his Viet Minh group actively persecuted the Vietnamese Nationalist Party and other parties in order to gain a monopoly. In 1990, UNESCO was about to celebrate his 100th birthday as a world hero, but faced with intense opposition from overseas Vietnamese so they dropped the matter. The Vietnamese article on him itself is a controlversial topic. DHN 21:28, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
I consider him to be a nationalist, not a communist. He spent most of his youth in western countries. Some of his quotes showed he just use communism as a tool to achieve independence for Vietnam ("It was patriotism, not communism, that inspired me." -and- "I only follow one party: the Vietnamese party."), beside, he rarely said anything supportive of communism (especially after the defeat of France in 1954). He is also an admirer of George Washington and worked as an agent for OSS (later became CIA) during world war II. Taking into account his enemy (France, Japan, U.S) and the historical context at that time, the only way to achieve independence and unification of Vietnam is communism. Although Vietnam did get into war with the Khmer Rouge and China (China invaded in support of the Khmer Rouge) in 1979, it is 10 years after the death of Ho Chi Minh, beside, based on unconfirmed sources, when he was alive, he did say something like after the U.S, Vietnam will have to fight China. Of course he made some mistake in his policy but the land reform attempt was rather because of pressure from the Soviet Union and China (there is an article in BBC website about this). I don't know if Vietnam would still be a Socialist country if the U.S supported Vietnam in the war against the French rather than funding more than 80% of the cost of war for the French and even offered them nuclear bomb to bomb Vietnam.--lt2hieu2004 04:04, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I fully and entirely support Chủ Tịch Hồ Chí Minh (and no, I am not Vietnamese). He is proof that socialism cannot be justifiably stereotyped. I would rank him as equal in greatness with President George Washington, Mahatma Gandhi, President Julius Nyerere, Premier Vladimir Lenin, Prime Minister Patrice Lumumba, President Nelson Mandela, and Martin Luther King Jr. The land reforms were not only due to pressure from the Soviets, but the number of those affected were much HUGELY exaggerated by the Americans and the Southern dictatorship. Ho Chi Minh was truly a great leader and person. Even the Saigon newspaper conceded upon his death that Vietnam had lost a great politician. Many westerners who met him in person said that he was a very good man, and very polite. Most of the South Vietnamese in the rural areas, thus farther from American lies, supported him and saw him for what he truly was. Upon hearing of his death, whole villages, North and South were filled with people weeping. There is only one bad thing about him which isn't really his fault anyway: he smoked cigarettes. But that is it. He would not drink alcohol. He had true morality. It is a shame that his is defamed by the West. It is a shame that he does not still run Vietnam. If he did, it could be at least as free as America, and perhaps even non-partisan. He wanted to make Vietnam as free as possible, even freer than America. The one thing he could not stand about America was the treatment of African-Americans. He wrote a very powerful article about the lynchings.It is a shame that his is defamed by the West. It is a shame that he does not still run Vietnam. If he did, it could be at least as free as America, and perhaps even non-partisan. It is a shame that such evil people as Stalin Kim Il-Sung, KimJung-Il, etc. have tainted the word 'communism'. They should have been more like him. -- Ionius Mundus 02:20, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

You actually believe that fucking bullshit? Ho murdered thousands of people that didn't belong to the right "class", to claim otherwise is re-writing history. 65.185.190.240 22:11, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Your comment is un-called for and insulting. Your use of such despicable words, especially in so public a place, only makes your comment worse. I don't listen to lying American propaganda which attempts to re-write history, I look at the actual actions of historical figures. I think that this method should be learned from. --Ionius Mundus 23:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually its your comment that was despicable because you are a Communist apologist who is trying to white-wash the deaths of thousands of people. 65.185.190.240 00:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

That has been deemed a personal attack. I will see to your immediate punishment. --Ionius Mundus 00:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Ionius Mundus is an obvious communist/V.C. sympathizer...if you don't believe it check out his talk page. I would take anything he says with a grain of salt and as most just communist propaganda. This is not a personal attack.--hvn73 19:02, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

So much for freedom of expression/belief/speech, etc. You people denounce the Vietnamese government for their so call "abuse of human rights". At the same time, you get emotional & start swearing like some low life, uneducated kids just because someone belief in a political system different than you. Well, at least us communists are polite, unlike you imperialist sympathizers. Open your mouth again when you come up with some real arguments instead of personal attacks.--lt2hieu2004 21:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I second that sir. Especially one part made me laugh: "North and South were filled with people weeping" thats clearly propaganda. Let me just quote everybodys favorite drill intructor from Full Metal Jacket, Gunnery Sergeant Hartman "Ho Chi Minh is a son of a bitch!".DerMeister 19:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about the South but that certainly is the case in the North, I've seen video footage of his funeral. According to my parents, there were at least a few hundred thoudsands people attend his funeral in Ba Dinh square. You are free to think whatever you like about Ho Chi Minh or Communism, however, insulting others is not going to help you in anyway. Some of us might laugh at your childish & pitiful reactions but I don't think any of us would be angry since these things are bound to happen one way or another when we try to have a constructive argument with your kind of people. I tried to reason with people like you all the time, every single time, when they run out of argument, or some of them - like you - without even trying to prove your point - start barking at us like dogs.--lt2hieu2004 21:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Mundus... Your comparison of Ho Chi Minh to MLK, Gandhi and Lenin(?) is absurd. To even mention the names of Gandhi and MLK in comparison to Lenin is a great insult the those who believe in non-violence. Lenin would have had you jailed, exiled or shot faster than you can say "dialectical materialism" if your views differed from that of the party orthodoxy.

And why is there a link to the Spartacus League regarding Ho Chi Minh? Those Spart crackpots are about as objective as the 700 Club... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.235.88.225 (talk) 04:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC).


Mundus- how can you glorify communism, when it has failed miserably in so many countries? Look what happened to East Germany vrs West Germany and North Korea vrs South Korea. Look at Cuba, the Soviet Union, and its satellites. This only points to one thing: communism DOESN'T work

[edit] OSS

Should this article mention Minh's involvement in the United States Office of Strategic Services? Or the way the US supported Minh during World War II because he faught the Japanese but later ignored his appeal for help and opposed his attempts to establish veitnamese independence?

I think it should be mentioned. Can you add to this article? I know about this but I don't have much information on this.

[edit] Neutrality and Factual Accuracy

"To most scholars, he was an opportunistic communist who seized power, created an authoritarian government, plunged Vietnam into a war that wrecked the country and established economic policies that left Vietnam poor and backward."

This is neither neutral nor factually accurate, nor does it cite its sources. - FrancisTyers · 19:38, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

"During this period, the History Channel reports that a team of American paramedics rescued him from a certain death (due to illness and hunger. Famine struck Vietnam and caused the death of about two million Vietnamese, while wheat was exported to France out of charge.)"

Is the History Channel a reliable source? - FrancisTyers · 19:38, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I seriously doubt it. There are also no links to show what exactly it's siting. I could just as easily write "According to the History Channel the moon is made of blue cheese and Nixon was a robot built by ancient Egyptian space aliens." RyanEberhart 18:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

You are certainly correct that the quote at the top is completely biased and not the slightest bit accurate. I have reverted it along with a large amount of other vandalism, including downright nonsense with some vandal messing up the names of the villages in which Uncle Ho grew up. I believe that some bot editing was also disposed of, so that should be re-added. Ionius Mundus 01:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

As a European I do not think the whole story is neutral. It wears too much the effects of a nation (US) losing a war. What I am missing is for instance the Geneva convention of 21 July 1954, in which the fighting parties were held amongst an artificial line (degree of latitude), what only later became the frontier line. Revise please! 194.109.220.2 08:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Land reform

By the communist party's own admission [2], many of those branded "landlords" (not "counterrevolutionaries") and publicly killed were innocent farmers. Many others were also killed in the purge that followed the disastrous reforms. DHN 22:26, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Might it be mentioned that besides the killings, the Land Reform did help a large amount of poor peasants to at least have some land, which is critically important to their agricultural career? And why is it always about Ho Chi Minh himself: he started the Reform, but who carried it out in detail? His cadres and his supporters! Can he sit in his chair and control all the communists in Vietnam? To my knowledge, the un-educated communists are often extremeist, so I think the mass killing was due to the unability of Ho Chi Minh and his cadres to control the Reform. I'm not a communist but I respect Ho Chi Minh as the best communist leader ever since (I'm not saying he's the best leader but the best communist leader, apart from other more cruel dictators).Hawkie 17:40, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree that he couldn't have controlled every Communist in Việtnam. Not even Mahatma Gandhi could control his supporters like all the time. Plus, the campaign was due to Chinese pressure in the first place. --Ionius Mundus 19:09, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation needed

This quotation was largely propaganda [citation needed] to influence western public opinion [citation needed] since Ho's Stalinist regime [citation needed] allowed no more freedom than the Communist Soviet Union did.

We'll need a citation for this. - FrancisTyers · 23:05, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

None of that paragraph is cited, should it be removed? As for that specific sentence plucked out, it is self-evident that North Vietnam was not a democracy and did not in reality embrace any of the principles in the quote. Since it is not true, it is thus propaganda and has been cited by many as the "evidence" that Ho was some sort of democrat. CJK 23:18, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Please see WP:V and WP:CITE. - FrancisTyers · 23:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

When you revert, please stop including BS like "counter-revolutionaries were killed". CJK 23:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Does my cite satisfy you? CJK 00:09, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I think this paragraph is misleading since I've read the speech. In it Ho doesn't quote the American constitution as an inspiration or example to be emulated but as an beginning of an attack on US policies which would according to him not reflect the constitution. If this is contested I can see if I can find it again. Prezen 16:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Almost like I remembered it, the speech was an attack on French policies:
"All men are created equal; they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights; among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness."
This immortal statement was made in the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America in 1776. In a broader sense, this means: All the peoples on the earth are equal from birth, all the peoples have a right to live, to be happy and free.
The Declaration of The French Revolution made in 1791 on the Rights of Man and the Citizen also states: "All men are born free and with equal rights, and must always remain free and have equal rights."
Those are undeniable truths.
Nevertheless, for more than eighty years, the French imperialists, abusing the standard of Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity, have violated our Fatherland and oppressed our fellow citizens. The have acted contrary to the ideals of humanity and justice.
In the field of politics, they have deprived our people of every democratic liberty. Prezen 14:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Phan Boi Chau

There are allegations that he was the one who notified the French of Phan Boi Chau's whereabouts in Shanghai for a reward amount, allowing him to be arrested. DHN 20:05, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not true, and I can get you citation if you would so desire. --Ionius Mundus 20:37, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The fact that there are allegations is not true? I can cite at least one source that made this allegation: Mạc Định Hoàng Văn Chí, Từ Thực Dân Đến Cộng Sản (From colonialism to communism), nxb Chân Trời Mới, Sài Gòn, 1964. DHN 00:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

You misunderstood me. There are allegations, but they are not true. --Ionius Mundus 00:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Death date

Ho Chi Minh died on September 2, 1969. The government initially covered it up (as well as his will) because that date was the same as the National Day now celebrated in Vietnam. They have recently admitted his death date is September 2. See, for example [3]. DHN 18:05, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Marriage

There is no concrete evidence (in the form of a certificate of marriage) to prove that Ho Chi Minh ever married. He was married to the cause of removing the French colonial government from Vietnam. It is widely accepted, however, that he did have a relationship with a Chinese woman (identity unknown); she was either his wife or his concubine. Crackyhoss 18:24, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

There is indeed no such evidence to prove a real marriage of Ho Chi Minh. But there are several letters or papers showing that he was married to some women, most clearly among them is a Chinese woman who was a secret communist agent and his comrade/partner/assistant during his stay in Hongkong. Of course at that time he used a different name, possibly Nguyen Ai Quoc. However I think it is likely that this was just for a legal cover, not a real marriage. Although the Vietnam government officially claims that Ho Chi Minh was single till his death, many detractors argue that he had several wives and loves with various women, French, Chinese, Vietnamese, and had several children, most noticeably among them is Nong Duc Manh, the current General Secretary of the CPV. However all these lack concrete evidences, most of them appeared to be derived from various unreliable sources such as a letter claimed by detractors to be written by Ho Chi Minh to his Chinese wife, or memoirs of people who claimed to have met and worked with Ho Chi Minh during his stay in France. It's really confusing since it was long time ago and no official investigation has been made. Still, most of his supporters believe that he devoted all his life for the sake of the country, since he is being made nearly an absolute perfect charismatic leader in Vietnam by the government and media. Honestly,he has earned significant respect both inside and outside Vietnam.Hawkie 04:46, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

A 'wife' in their culture is the same sense as in the French word 'femme' meaning 'woman, wife'. A 'wife' (in their culture) is any woman whom a man has sexual relations with, termed in English as the common-law wife. No 'legal' documentation is required.

[edit] Cultural depictions of Ho Chi Minh

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In the USA

I've removed the text below from the article, which was in a subsection under "Early life" titled "In the USA".

It is believed that he even travelled to the United States, Boston first, then New York City, where he worked as a dishwasher in Chinatown. In the United States, he was astonished by the civil liberties enjoyed by immigrants, the type of liberties he was denied in his home country under the colonial rule. [citation needed]

If this is true, this is an important insight into his life, and his relationship with the USA; but I cannot find any evidence that it is true, so I've moved it here. Can anyone find a cite to support this? -- Karada 11:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

  • There is a reasonable body of evidence to support the contention that Ho visited the USA at some point in the period 1912-1918. I don't have a reference at hand but will provide one later. I added the need for the citation, but it was in reference to his 'astonishment at the civil liberties enjoyed by immigrants' as opposed to the fact he visited America. Cripipper 13:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
According to Karnow it was astonishment at the civil liberties enjoyed by African-Americans. Prezen 15:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
A rather more revealing statement on many levels. Cripipper 15:10, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Birth of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam Requires Editing

I am not commenting about facts, but about the wording and style which is far from the level it should be at (e.g. "Before this speech, both the new Vietnamese anthem (Tiên Quân Ca) written by Văn Cao and the American anthem (the Star-Spangled Banner) were played. Before the speech, he had tried unsuccessfully...", and the history channel reference). Moshe Gordon 19:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] His language skill

Should it be change to state that he was knownledgeabe in some of the mentioned languages and not fluent? There's no evidence that suggest he was actually "fluent" in all those languages. Besides Vietnamese, it was common knownledge that he spoke French as a second language, like most educated people of French Indochina did, but to state that he was also "fluent" in three other languages including several dialects of Chinese is too much of a stretch. It's a blatant exaggeration of his real lingustic skills. Again, there is no evidence that proves he was educated enough in those languages to be considered "fluent", such as educational records. I've never heard of an instance where Ho Chi Minh fluently converse in a intelligent conversation with languages other that Vietnamese and French that was clearly understadable. For example how did Ho Chi Minh Came became fluent in German as a native of Germany would be? When and where was he educated in it? Was he self taught, if so how? These are questions that must be answered. After all Wikipedia must be as neutral as possible, if not it will lose it's credibilty as unbiase source of information. If anyone can prove the disputed statement to be true, please do. In the mean time I'll insert (disputed) into the statement. LOC85 05:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Since there is no page reference in the citation I have removed the word "fluent". And while I don't know about German, Ho spent 20 years living variously in England, France, China and Russia. He spoke good Chinese, both Mandarin and Cantonese, and given he spent five years in the Soviet Union, I would be very surprised if he didn't speak reasonable Russian as well. Cripipper 04:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
He never need a translator when communicating in English as well as Russian. He also wrote some poems in Chinese and learned in French when he was young, write newspaper articles in French, Russian and Chinese. He is definitely fluent in English, several dialects of Chinese, French and Russian. Not sure about German though. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.27.201.179 (talk) 20:41, 6 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Hu Zhiming

As far as I know, Ho Chi Minh is not a birth name, but a name he took in 1943 when he was in China.--Niohe 01:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

In 1943, Pinyin did not exist. All version of his pseudonymn written with the Roman alphabet used the Vietnamese spelling. Please cite a contemporary source that used "Hu Zhiming". DHN 02:02, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Whatever, we can delete pinyin for every single name prior to 1958 if you want to.--Niohe 02:33, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that's necessary. If the person/concept is Chinese, pinyin should probably be used to show how the term is Romanized. Otherwise there's no point in trying to Romanize something that's already been Romanized. DHN 02:42, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Sure, but there are a number of articles on foreigners that spent a considerable time in China and their names are often romanized in pinyin. And Ho Chi Minh wrote things in Chinese using this name when he lived in China, wasn't his prison diary in Chinese? It's not a big deal for me, it's just that I don't see this brick wall separating different cultures and languages.--Niohe 02:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, he is Vietnamese, not Chinese, therefore any Chinese translation of his name is irrelevant. Secondly, this is an English wikipedia, not a Chinese one. Thirdly, people who visit this wikipedia want to read English, if they want to read Chinese so much, they would've visited the Chinese wikipedia instead.--lt2hieu2004 03:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes

No one would happen to have a translation of the first quote in Vietnamese? I remember seeing it everywhere, above the doors of houses etc, when I was in Vietnam - at least they told me that was what it was! AlenWatters 23:50, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Không có gì quý hơn độc lập tự do! DHN 02:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

At least one of these quotes ("Two, Three, Many Vietnams") belongs to Che Guevara not Ho Chi Minh, could someone have a look over the quote lsit to see if anyone else has snuck in some quotes from other Communist/Socialist Revolutionaries


[edit] Demise and Legacy

I heard that during his final hours, there was a nurse by his side. When he died, she sang a song for him. Recently, there was a national song about her and this very moment. Who was she? What did she sing to him? What was the recent song about her?

Wikidrunk! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 167.121.8.12 (talk) 18:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

There was indeed a song about that moment. The nurse sang 2 songs: A Hue (where he attend high school and started his political career) and a Nghe An (where he was born) folk song. I don't know if it is true though. That song is available here--lt2hieu2004 03:02, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1956 elections

Could User:Prezen please stop inserting POV speculation and uncited guesswork into the body of the text relating to this article. You reworded my cited text, making it say something that my sources do not say. They do not say that Ike was misquoted, and they do say that all observers reckon Ho would have got 80% of the vote in 1955-6. They make no mention of it being a reflection on Bao Dai rather than Diem. If you have verifiable sources for making these claims please include them, otherwise leave the citations as they are. Furthermore, you keep trying to assert that it was Diem's concerns over free elections that prevented him from holding national elections in 1956. There is no serious historian who believes that Diem had any intention of holding any election that he thought he might lose. The man was hardly a devotee to open and transparent democracy - 200,000 more people in Saigon voted for him in the 1955 referendum than were on the electoral register, and he won with a rather suspicious 98% of the vote. There is an enormous body of scholarship by historians such as David Anderson and Mark Lawrence that shows the priority for both the U.S. and Diem was to prevent a communist victory at any cost.

Oh, and btw - 'warmonger'? What are you on...? Cripipper 20:17, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Could Cripipper please misrepresenting my views and edits like this.
  • I have introduced Diem's objections against the elections as per what Stephen Karnow in Vietnam a History and the Pentagon Papers say, if they are not represented in your sources I'd say that it makes me wonder about the validity of them. I also note that one of them can't be found on Amazon.
  • Whether Diem was a democrat or not is irrelevant since I've never tried to make him look like one. The relevant fact is Diem's criticism against the freedom for the electorate to vote for other candidates than Ho.
  • Re the Eisenhower quote referring to Bao Dai it is taken directly from the Papers say:

    President Eisenhower is widely quoted to the effect that in 1954 as many as 80% of the Vietnamese people would have voted for Ho Chi Minh, as the popular hero of their liberation, in an election against Bao Dai. In October 1955, Diem ran against Bao Dai in a referendum and won--by a dubiously overwhelming vote, but he plainly won nevertheless. It is almost certain that by 1956 the proportion which might have voted for Ho--in a free election against Diem--would have been much smaller than 80%. Diem's success in the South had been far greater than anyone could have foreseen, while the North Vietnamese regime had been suffering from food scarcity, and low public morale stemming from inept imitation of Chinese Communism-including a harsh agrarian program that reportedly led to the killing of over 50,000 small-scale "landlords."

    As can be seen, the Eisenhower quote is directly connected to Bao Dai as an alternative. I am amazed that you maintain the felictious contention that my edit was unsupported by this source. It continues later:

That circumstances in North Vietnam were serious enough to warrant Giap's confiteor (sic) was proved by insurrection among Catholic peasants in Noember 1956, within two weeks of his speech, in which thousands more lives were lost. But the uprisings, though then and since used to validate the U.S.-backed GVN stand, were not foreseen in 1955 or 1956; the basis for the policy of both nations in rejecting the Geneva elections was, rather, convictions that Hanoi would not permit "free general elections by secret ballot," and that the ICC would be impotent in supervising the elections in any case. (my emphasis)

No one was called a warmonger, I distinctly stated that I didn't want warmongering propaganda inserted, which the Eisenhower misquote represents, since it was the staple of communist propaganda justifying their war to unite Vietnam. A war that killed millions of Indochinese. Prezen 20:55, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Military training?

The article contains these entries:

[In Moscow, Ho was] ..the principal theorist on colonial warfare.

In 1923, Ho moved to Guangzhou, China, where he .. gave lectures at the Whampoa Military Academy

This is very odd, since, according to the article, prior to this time, HCM's only military background was as US Navy cook.

Request clarification please!

--Philopedia 23:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The article does not say that Ho was ever a U.S. Navy cook; it says he was a cook on a ship that at one point traveled to the United States. I am not sure the origin of the statement that he was the principle theorist on colonial warfare (he was certainly a theorist on the topic though), but being a theorist does not necessarily mean that he had any formal military training prior to this. His lectures on the Whampoa Academy were on the "revolutionary situation in Indochina"; once again this does not mean he was lecturing in military theory. Cripipper 02:00, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Virgin Mary

What has the holy mother gotta do with it??? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.194.29.140 (talk) 23:56, 18 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Chữ nho

I removed the "Chữ nho" translation of Ho Chi Minh since it's nothing more than Chinese. As I've said before, Chinese translation shouldn't be included here (see past discussions on this matter above). Some people argued that because Vietnamese writing at the time of Ho Chi Minh's birth is based on the ancient Chinese, Chinese translation should be included. This is absurd, if anybody want to add translations to this page, please add "Chữ Nôm" translations, not Chinese translations and tag them as "Chữ nho".--lt2hieu2004 01:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

In case you're not aware, "chu Nom" only applies to native Vietnamese words. Ho Chi Minh's name is fully Sino-Vietnamese, so the "chu Nom" is the same as "chu nho". I doubt he knew how to read chu Nom anyways. DHN 01:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand "chu Nom", however I can understand Chinese to some extent (Mandarin). On my laptop running FC6, the Chinese translation doesn't show up correctly, however, I presume the translation is written in Simplified Chinese as it had been done so many time before in this page and other pages relating to Vietnam. AFAIK, Simplified Chinese was only really invented and promoted in the 1950s (however, some work had been done on Simplified Chinese before the 1950s), it has no connection with Vietnamese or chu Nom. Chu Nom is much more closely related to Cantonese than Mandarin. Moreover, correct me if I'm wrong but chu Nom is based on ancient Chinese so I presume it would be very different to modern Mandarin.--lt2hieu2004 18:49, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
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