Talk:History of video game consoles (second generation)

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Contents 1 How can all these consoles be classed in the same category? 2 Games Computers 3 Early handheld / table top games 4 Missing images 5 Determination Of Game Console Generations Must Be Hammered Out 6 Generations mostly correct except for THIS Generation (TWO)

[edit] How can all these consoles be classed in the same category?

I don't believe it is accurate to describe all of the consoles listed here as being in the same "generation".

The first consoles are little more than "first generation" as they are really just "pong" type consoles (Fairchild Channel F, RCA Studio II).

The consoles released during 1977 - 1981 (Atari 2600, Intellivision etc) are vastly superior to these and are definitely a later generation.

Similarly the consoles from 1982 onwards are vastly superior to these systems (Atari 5200, Colecovision, Sega SG-1000 etc), with games approaching the quality of the Commodore 64 or ZX Spectrum home computers.

Should we consider splitting up this category? Gp100mk 10:16, 24 February 2006 (UTC)]

As far as I know these are the groupings commonly accepted outside of wikipedia. All the consoles in this article are similar in terms of overall design (use cartridges, have a cpu etc.). They are even 8-bit like the "third generation" systems except that they were released before the Video game crash of 1983. - Diceman 13:10, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

The following website seems to give a much more accurate classification (in my view) http://www.informit.com/articles/article.asp?p=378141&rl=1 They come from the book "A History of Home Video Game Consoles" by Michael Miller. It splits the consoles into the exact categories I have suggested Gp100mk 15:06, 10 March 2006 (UTC)]

Well the classifications are the same as here (might need to move eg. "8-bit" to "third generation" etc.), except that he bumps up everything from the NES on up a generation, so the PS3 and Xbox 360 would be eighth generation. The only trouble is that '"eighth generation" colsoles' ran through google returns nothing.

As far as first and second generation consoles go the link actually confirms what is already here. - Diceman 12:52, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

No - look again and you will see that the extra generation arises because second generation has been split into two, as I originally suggested (plus the very early second generation consoles are classified as first generation). However, I accept that this might not be what is "commonly accepted" Gp100mk 16:37, 14 March 2006 (UTC)]

Might be worth mentioning the differences in the article as what's here is just a general rundown. I have to say that I don't think creating a seperate article just for the 5200 and Colecovision is the way to go. Or if you include more consoles, where do you draw the line. - Diceman 12:30, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there are an awful lot of consoles in this category. Personally I think it would be more accurate to move the Colecovision, 5200 and Sega SG-1000 up to 3rd Generation. And move everything prior to the Atari 2600 down to 1st Generation MarkL 10:47, 05 April 2006 (UTC)]

Using a sock puppet is hardly going to bring credibility to your view. Don't forget that the console articles would have to be changed as well. I'm not against anything you're saying but everyone seems to have their own opinion of which generation is which. Check out this article [1], the author has an 0th generation. Still another one includes the NES in the first generation [2]. There aren't any generations really, it seems to be how people have broken them up since they started being released in a regular cycle.

BTW the console groupings were inherited from what was already here on wikipedia (I can't seem to find the original text, it might have been erased), I didn't come up with them myself. - Diceman 13:51, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

When the ColecoVision and Atari 5200 were current systems, there were commonly referred to as "Third Generation Systems" in the video game press, and perceived by most console owners to be significant upgrades over existing consoles.

Apparently Coleco used (invented?) the term "Third Generation" in their marketing. See this old FAQ: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.video.classic/browse_thread/thread/c5ad3d591db9bc9b/fd70bb2f80e1abec

Given that this was the only time that "generation" was ever widely used when discussing console history, the Wikipedia probably should follow this convention rather than collapsing these systems into the previous generation. 64.171.162.76 02:32, 31 May 2006

How would you group the later generations? - Diceman 11:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Logic would dictate that the later consoles would have to be moved up a generation. Consoles have been released on a regular cycle since the very first ones were released. The question is, does this article reflect that? Gp100mk 11:43, 27 July 2006 (UTC)]

This console list is a cluser-f. For one, most of the early "consoles" are not considered console systems at all. They are PONG machines. Just because it was listed in a book this way doesn't make them right. Atari 2600, O2, and Intellivision (arriving late on the scene) are the major players in the 1st generation. 2nd gen = Atari 5200, Colecovision. 3rd gen = NES, Sega Master System, Atari 7800. 4th Generation S-NES, Sega Genesis 5th Generation N64, Sega Saturn, PSOne 6th Generation: Gamecube, Sega Dreamcast, PS2, XBox. 7th Generation: Xbox360, PS3, Wii. There are a few things that contribute to this "generation" classification. #1 is date released and #2 is direct competition against another system of another manufacturer. All the units I have listed are much more accurate than this article (i've left out many popular machines, but I know what categories they go in and can easily provide information as such.) The "Pong" machines as well as Magnavox's first Odyssey are often called "pre-generation" or "generation zero" systems because they preceeded what is known as the "video game boom" where the generations would have first started.

One day, when I have the time, I will break it down. I think the majority of classic game system collectors, such as myself, understand these things. There may be one or two "maybe" categories as some folks think the Intellivision should be a "generation two" but I think we can work through this. If you were alive back then, you know that the Atari 2600 and Intellivision were fierce competitors and not until the 3rd competitor arrived on the scene was there anything like it. That third competitor was the Colecovision to which Atari responded with the 5200 starting the whole "console generation" thing from then on out. I will be back after I register an account with wikipedia and cut through some of this garbage. I do have years of expertise in the field of video game console collecting and I'd like to help where I can. Thank you. -Badsyso —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.51.42.70 (talk) 03:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC).

That's just wrong. The 5200 was in development before Coleco released the Colecovision and was actually a response to the Intellivision, not the Colecovision. People assumed it was in response to the Colecovision because of their release times. Likewise, nobody of any familiarity says pong consoles are not game consoles - what they're not is programmable consoles. Claims of "pre-generation" or "Generation zero" are just that - claims and attempts at categorizing by a random few, hardly a standard and not accurate. Lastly, that logic of "date released" and "direct competition" is flawed by your own example of how long items were on the market, since most of these early consoles were all on the same market at the same time competing for the same dollars through '84 - that was actually one of the major contributing factors to the crash. Collecting consoles is all fine, and everyone is welcome to contribute to Wikipedia articles, but that hardly makes expertise on the matter. And I strongly suggest you actually do the research before setting your self up as a source of "expertise" and calling previous Wiki editors contributions to this article "garbage" in one fell swoop. To paraphase your comment - "Just because you have an opinion doesn't make it right." And I would further suggest you get group consensus and factual resources on the matter before you try any major overhalls based on opinion. --Marty Goldberg 05:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Games Computers

Shouldn't early games computers such as the Commodore Vic-20 be mentioned alongside these consoles, for completeness? Gp100mk 10:16, 24 February 2006 (UTC)]

I've thought about that, it does seem slightly odd that this series of gaming articles are console-only. Maybe they should all be renamed "History of video games consoles" to reflect this. - Diceman 13:10, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Early handheld / table top games

What about the early LED handheld & table top games from this era, such as "Astro Wars", "Scramble", "Crazy Kong", "Caveman", "Invader from Space" etc. These types of game were incredibly popular in the UK. Not sure whether they were released worldwide or not.

These kinds of games are covered in the History of computer and video games article, though you may want to add examples from the UK that are missing. Also, please sign your posts with four tildes (~) since that will list your screen name and record the time and date. Thanks! Coll7 19:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Missing images

For anyone wanting to upload an image of a console which they do not possess themselves, this argument by SteveBaker was successful in keeping Image:SG-1000 II.jpg on wikipedia. - Diceman 06:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Determination Of Game Console Generations Must Be Hammered Out

I have always believed the Intellivision along with the Atari 2600 to be in the 1st generations of video game systems. Due to their direct competition and relative time release, they (along with the Magnavox Odyssey 2) were the first of the real game consoles. The previous pong machines are even classified as pre-generation or generation 0 many times. The Colecovision and Atari 5200 were 3rd generation, NES 4th, SNES 5th, N64 6th, Gamecube 7th, and now you have what is viewed at the 8th generation machines coming out. I have not the time to list them now, but I wish I could. This is one subject I am partly an expert on. The next generation not only is upgraded in technology but are direct competitors to others in the same generation on the most part. One would not argue against the nintendo line NES, S-NES, N64, Gamecube, and the next one.... follow that line of thought. Please discuss more!

• The "Generation" tags are arbitrary (and, I suspect, made up by someone outside the industry/press). For the sake of clarity, they should probably be replaced with years within the articles. --Colage 17:12, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Everyone seems to have their own system for grouping consoles into generations. However the last two "generations" (6th and 7th) are widely referred to by those numbers. The earlier consoles are left up to the individual to determine which generation they belong to. Wikipedia has acceptable enough boundaries and it's not worth changing the later generation pages to fit one's own personal grouping in my opinion. - Diceman 04:40, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem isn't so much that it should be changed to fit a personal grouping, it's that it should be changed from someone's personal grouping. I've heard "next generation" consoles referred to, but never specific numbers. The problem with categorizing this topic specifically is that there is a wealth of lay historians, and it's recent enough to not have anyone talk to each other or establish consensus on the generation criteria. I think that naming these pages as such passes off as fact (or consensus) something that's not agreed upon widely, and just using the years would placate everyone involved.. --Colage 16:14, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the generation numbers are arbitrary, not very widely used, and vary depending who is counting them and when. I would with agree changing them to year ranges and/or descriptive names.

For example: "Pong and fixed function systems (197x-1980)", "Early cartridge systems (1977-1981)", "Crash era systems (1982-1984)", "So-called 8-Bit Era (1985-1990)", "So-called 16-Bit Era (1988-1996)", "Early 3D systems (1996-2001)" and so on. 64.171.162.76 09:59, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with this. For one, the "generation" numbers ARE widely used. The 8-bit era is going to cause trouble as many machines weren't "8 bit" and calling it the "so-called 8 bit" seems just weird. I think it is easy to hammer out the console generations. I know them! If you lay it out in years released, they almost all line up. And placing "years" behind the era is terrible as the Intellivision's life extended from 1981 through 1989 with INTV still releasing games. By the way, these were not "home-brews" but authentic intellivision games that are amongst the highest valued ones today. God, I wish I had them all. I am going to lay this out for you all and we can all discuss the matter reasonably. I can see where you want to lump the systems into "so-called 8-bit" but then would that put the intellivision in there, since it is so-called 8 bit? No. Also the Atari Jaguar poses a problem in this setup as well as other machines that used unique processing. We need to go by year & competition. It is easy to figure out the later generations as the NES, SNES, N64, Gamecube, and Wii made it easy. The first two years are where the trouble comes in. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.51.42.70 (talk) 03:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC).

Again, personal opinion i.e. "You know them" does not make your opinion any more factual. And using length of sales time to disqualify someone elses view on generation grouping is just not logical. The VCS was on the market in to the Genesis/SNES era, but nobody would argue that it belongs in an earlier generation. Likewise, nobody would consider them a major player - most of INTV's "market" was mailorder past the crash. --Marty Goldberg 05:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Generations mostly correct except for THIS Generation (TWO)

The accuracy of this article is highly questionable. How can the Atari 2600 AND Atari 5200 be a "generation two"? That defies logic. The problem is in the first generation of consoles. They are pong machines and NOT game consoles. Then the TRUE generation one and two consoles are lumped together in this mess. It is not accurate in the least bit, really. The first generation of "consoles" MUST contain the Atari 2600 as this is the first true "CONSOLE" that started the whole industry. Yes, there were others before the Atari 2600, but they were failures. The Atari 2600 sparked the home video game craze. I'd have to look back on some old Electronic Games magazines, but I'm pretty sure they do call the Colecovision the "next generation" of videogames along with the Atari 5200. Since that magazine came out in the early 80's, I think the source would be more accurate. I'll dig through my collection and see what I can come up with. --Badsyso 03:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that's just not correct. There was an entire console industry long before the 2600, and nowhere is the PONG console industry considered a "failure" - with 150+ seperate competitors (manufacturers) of this generation of consoles world wide across its lifespan (1975-1978). And they are all considered "game consoles", that's what they're for - playing games on a television. To call PONG consoles "not game consoles" is simply way out of touch. Perhaps you meant to say they're not programmable game consoles? That would be a little more accurate. But I don't think you're going to find people taking this conversation seriously by saying they're not "game consoles" and taking old marketing out of game magazines out of context. Traditionally among historians, 1st generation refers to the PONG era, i.e. pre-VES and VCS. The Magnavox Odyssey was the first console, and started the industry in 1972 (and contrary to popular regurgitation, was actually a success on the world market). The Sears branded Atari OEM's PONG and Magnavox Odyssey 100 and 200 exploded the industry in '75, though usually the original Odyssey and the pong generation consoles get lumped in to the same generation. The 2600 itself was a hard sell when first introduced. Didn't start selling well until around '80. And quite frankly, "Next generation" was a marketing term frequently thrown around by press releases and marketing at the time (and even now) and must be taken as a grain of salt. The confusion is that within generations (or "era's" if you will), there are sub-generations and multiple ways of counting them. For example, you could do multiple generations of 8-bit consoles I.E. the Fairchild VES, Atari VCS, RCA Studio II, Odyssey2 and Bally Professional Arcade belong to the first "wave" or "generation" of 8-bits). Then the "second wave", i.e. Intellivision, Atari 5200, Colecovision, Vectrex, etc. Then third wave of this era, the Atari 7800, Sega Master System, NES, NEC Turbo Grafix, etc... The problem is that not everything fits neatly in to that - the Intellivision is not an 8-bit console for example, it's 16. So some people try and do generations by release groupings as well. I find a mixture of both and a dose of common sense works best. --Marty Goldberg 05:17, 2 April 2007 (UTC)