Talk:History of the molecule

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Moved here from Talk:Molecule:

Contents 1 History of the molecule 2 To do list 3 Descartes' hooks 4 Medioeval theories of molecules 5 Rename or move 5.1 Comment

[edit] History of the molecule

It has been suggested by User:Unconcerned that I build up the history section in the molecule article:

Hi Sadi Carnot. Ionic substances like NaCl are generally not thought of as composed of molecules. On the other hand, from your contributions to Heat I know that you are a passionate reader of various thermodynamics books and have done a wonderful job synthesizing textbook information for that article. A discussion like this regarding the continuum and the molecular treatment in the kinetic theory of gases would be greatly beneficial to the history section of the molecule article. Would you please contribute a few sentences or a short paragraph on this subject in order to show where the concept comes from and why the IUPAC definition alone is not sufficient in the intro paragraph? Your help would be greatly appreciated. --Unconcerned 16:55, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Unconcerned, I'm running out of time today, but I'll check into that soon. --Sadi Carnot 17:06, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I like doing history sections and I am already in the process of researching the history of molecular orbital theory so I will probably work on it over the next month. I will probably make some hook and loop diagrams as well as other early molecule models such as Loschmidt's 1861 molecule drawings. I will likely follow J. R. Partington’s History of Chemistry opus as an outline. I will likely argue the following:

Moved to: History of the molecule due to file size.

---

This is just a quick start; I'll build on this over the weeks. We'll have to properly foot-note all the "see article" links later. If someone wants to work on the Gaudin "red-link" that would help. In addition, the following link was suggested as a resource. If anyone has any suggestions or good references please leave me notes here. If everyone contributes ideas below, I'll do the work of writing up the section. Thanks: --Sadi Carnot 17:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

The file size is getting big, so I will start a seperate page: History of the molecule and attach a "link to main" to the history section of the molecule article. --Sadi Carnot 01:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

WOW! This is awesome. I've never seen a fresh article so complete. Thanks for the excellent work! --Unconcerned 04:10, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I didn’t plan on writing this all at once, but I started with an uploaded image this morning and just kept on going. The only thing I can't find is the date, original picture, and article as to where Rene Descartes thought up the hook-and-eye atom bonding model? I’ve been searching the internet all day for this source? If you have any ideas on this let me know. I left a message on Descartes’ talk page. Talk later: --Sadi Carnot 04:16, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello Sadi Carnot! I didn't know that Descartes attributed an hook-and-eye form to material particles: have you a precise reference in his works? I was convinced that this was already the ancient atomists' idea about atoms... I can look for details, if you wish - but if your sources say that Descartes was the first to invent it, there is no need. Another thing: I thought that the first scientist who used the word "molécule" (in French, but referring only to the "molécule organique") was the zoologist Buffon in the 18th century, but it is said in the article:

from Fr. molécule (1678)

Does it mean that the first French occurence dates from 1678? In which context/author? Thanks - and bravo for the article! Benio76 01:14, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

From what I have read, the books say that Descrates is the dominante first proponent of the concept of the molecule. Certainly, however, after Leucippus proposed the concept of the atom, many unknowns would have likely had atom 'joining' theories. --Sadi Carnot 04:18, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

In case you are interested, this is the earliest usage example recorded in the Oxford English Dictionary, from 1666 by Boyle: "1666 D. COXE Let. 19 Jan. in M. Hunter et al. Corresp. R. Boyle (2001) III. 31 These Subtilized principles meeting together may bee readily united..: which Substances thus united Constitute a little masse, or molecula of mettall, many of which are usually associated before they appeare in a visible or sensible forme." Itub 01:48, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Itub, good work on the reference; I'll have to dig around in my copy of Boyle's 1661 book to see if he uses the word in there. --Sadi Carnot 04:18, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] To do list

The article is starting to feel solid. A few details left to finish include:

1. Marc-Antoine-Auguste Gaudin - fix this redlink
2. Alfred Parson - fix this redlink
3. Maurice M. Rapport - fix this redlink
4. K.L. Wolf - fix this redlink
5. Find the date, original picture, and article as to where Rene Descartes thought up the hook-and-eye atom bonding model concept.
6. Find diagrams of the early geometric shapes of elements, used by the Greeks and others, in terms of how these combined to form pre-cursory "molecules" (before Descartes models)
7. Possibly add parts on molecules in medicine such as "drug-receptor" ideas as well as designer molecules used to mimic neurochemicals, such as neurotransmitters in the brain, etc.
8. Find more pre-17th century views on pseudo or precursor molecule concepts

Thanks: --Sadi Carnot 10:55, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Descartes' hooks

I was intrigued by Benio76's question above, and tried to look for some references. Google's book search gives some starting points. I started by searching for descartes atom hooks, and found some conflicting views. Some indicate that Descartes didn't believe in atoms. Others attribute the "hooks" to the Greek philosophers, and yet others to Pierre Gassendi. See the search for gassendi atom hooks, which gives more specific results. However, most suggest that he was just "reviving" the theories of the Greeks.

In any case, I think that the picture of the water molecule with the hooks that is currently found in the article needs a big disclaimer: at the time of Gassendi and Descartes, the composition of water was not known.

I haven't changed the article because I don't have time now to really make sense of the references and decide which to cite. Itub 02:21, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Good research findings; I'll amend the article a bit. My guess is that the "hook theory" evolved out the earlier "abrasion theory" (I don’t know who exactly started this theory), in which atoms formed different shapes due to inter-atomic abrasions, frictions, and rubbings. --Sadi Carnot 04:25, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi! it is certainly correct to say that Descartes did not believe in atoms, at least in the historical, philosophical and etymologycal meaning of the word: "atom" means the ultimate and indivisible part of matter, while Descartes believed that the essence of matter was extension ("res extensa"), and therefore in his opinion matter was infinitely divisible! Moreover, he refuted the existence of void (the matter, being "extension", fills the whole space) and therefore he was fiercly against the atomist theories! For this reason, I was amazed when I found Descartes mentioned in an article about atoms! Nevertheless, it is true that Descartes said that matter is composed of particles (I think that it is in the Principia Phlosophiae that he said it), but only in an empirical sense, because these paricles could have been divided and divided and so on... because, in his ontological and metaphysical opinion matter was extension, and not "atoms and void", as atomists claimed. For these reasons, I'm not sure that it is correct to ascribe to Descartes a "molecular theory", except in a very large sense. What do you think of improving the paragraph a little?

And, Itub, thanks for the reference! Benio76 15:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I added about seven paragraphs and five references, I hope this clarifies the situation; though it would still be nice to find an original image of a "hooked atom" drawn prior to the 1920s. According to Itub's search results, there are about a dozen references that state that Descartes had theories on attached atoms, also this reference in particlular states that the theory of the molecule can be traced to the philosophy of Descartes. --Sadi Carnot 01:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi! I finally found the exact reference concerning molecules in Descartes' works! It is indeed in the Principia Philosopiae, that you can find here in English - it's not the whole work, but the chapters about particles are available: see part IV, chapters CCI and following. Actually, in ch. CCII Descartes states his opinion about Democritus philosophy and rejects the indivisibility of atoms and the existence of void:

But it may be said that Democritus also supposed certain corpuscles that were of various figures, sizes, and motions, from the heaping together and mutual concourse of which all sensible bodies arose; and, nevertheless, his mode of philosophizing is commonly rejected by all. To this I reply that the philosophy of Democritus was never rejected by any one, because he allowed the existence of bodies smaller than those we perceive, and attributed to them diverse sizes, figures, and motions, for no one can doubt that there are in reality such, as we have already shown; but it was rejected, in the first place, because he supposed that these corpuscles were indivisible, on which ground I also reject it; in the second place, because he imagined there was a vacuum about them, which I show to be impossible; thirdly, because he attributed gravity to these bodies, of which I deny the existence in any body, in so far as a body is considered by itself, because it is a quality that depends on the relations of situation and motion which several bodies bear to each other; and, finally, because he has not explained in particular how all things arose from the concourse of corpuscles alone, or, if he gave this explanation with regard to a few of them, his whole reasoning was far from being coherent, [or such as would warrant us in extending the same explanation to the whole of nature]. This, at least, is the verdict we must give regarding his philosophy, if we may judge of his opinions from what has been handed down to us in writing.

Perhaps that you will find also the reference to the hook-and-eye theory in this text, I have no time to look for it. Anyway, I hope this was useful. Indeed, your article has been useful to me, because it brought me to revise Descartes' science (I am much more familiar to Descartes' metaphysics!) and to realize that indeed a theory of the molecule can be attributed to him! Good night! Benio76 23:07, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Good detective work Benio, I'll put that book on my reading list. --Sadi Carnot 16:41, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I've seen that you found more info about the origin of the hook-and-eye model - I remembered well, it was the ancient atomosts indeed! My memory is not definitively lost! Maybe I can find more detailed references in Leucippus and Democritus works - I'll take a look. Benio76 22:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I added the direct references to Democritus. The references are in the Diels Kranz form, which is normally the standard way to quote the Presocratics, so I think that there is no need to add more: the reader can find them in any edition and translation. In the first two fragments I quoted it is said that some atoms have hooks, and in the third one that atoms enlace because, having different forms, they hook each other. Since I have a French translation, I did not add the exact quotes in the articles. I will ask editors of Democritus if they have an English translation. Benio76 15:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Medioeval theories of molecules

Hi! What about writing just a line about medioeval theories of molecules? I just improved the William of Conches article with a short description of his physical theory about elements: in general, all the 12th century philosophers of the Chartres school had a theory of elements. Let me know! Benio76 22:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, anything pre-molecular theories before the 17th century would be nice. I would especially like to find an old diagram showing the different shapes of atoms and how they attached due to congruent geometries. --Sadi Carnot 03:53, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that it will be hard... I'll take a look if there are images in Gassendi's works on Epicurus, otherwise I don't know where such a thing could be found... And, by the way, what about a link to Indian atomism? Benio76 15:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi! I added the small paragraph about medioeval theories at last! But unfortunately I found no images in Gassendi's works... :-( Benio76 22:25, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Good contrib; however, you need to explain how that passage relates to "molecules" not just "elements" or else we will have to put that section into the elements section. In other words, what did Thierry of Chartres and William of Conches think molecules were? --Sadi Carnot 15:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I found some supporting material in a book I have, I'll add to your last contribution a bit. Thanks: --Sadi Carnot 03:21, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi! Your contribution is very good! Actually, since I already wrote something on Thierry and William's theories on their respective pages, I was not sure if I was supposed to repeat the same things here or the reader was supposed just to follow the links to know more. So, thank you for your intervention! I just have some doubts about the phrase "a direct result of certain fundamental objections of the Christian church and an overall decline in civilization as a whole". I don't agree on defining medioeval thought a "decline", I mean, it's a projection of the modern point of view! And Enlightenment propaganda too! As for the objections of the Christian church, does your book cite anything specific? I ask because I experienced that the "opposition of the Catholic Church" has become a sort of jolly for all simple explanations of history of thought. I'm not Catholic at all, so it is not a matter of reabilitation of the Catholic Church, be reassured! It's just to understand better the evolution of ideas. Thanks! :-) Benio76 22:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Benio, yes those words were essentially pulled from part two of Bernard Pullman's The Atom in the History of Human Thought. I'll add a reference to clarify. --Sadi Carnot 17:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, of course, I understood that it was an opinion taken from your source, but I think that it is questionable. I agree that we can say that Middle Ages are a pause in the development of scientific thought (at least, as we conceive it): so, the beginning of the paragraph is no problem for me. But to speak of decline of civilization is naif, honestly. There is lots of literature on Medioeval thought - not to speak about art! This opinion is not essential to the article. I propose to remove just the phrase "a direct result of certain fundamental objections of the Christian church and an overall decline in civilization as a whole": it would not alter at all the section.

And, I propose to replace Dark Ages, which appears to be a historiographic category, with Early Middle Ages. The chonology is to be corrected too: Middle Ages start conventionally in V century after Christ (when the Western Roman Empire ended and the last emperor was deposed). I'm going to do this, since it is not too controversial.

And, thanks for your contribution on Timaeus!! The image is great! Benio76 18:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

My general consensus is that there was a general decline in Western science starting essentially with Constantine’s adoption of Christianity (313) and ending with the invention of Gutenberg’s printing press (1450). However you want to word it is fine with me; I just think that there should be a loose sentence explaining why there was no atomic-molecular development during these years. And yes, I agree, the image is pleasing to the eye. --Sadi Carnot 14:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rename or move

from User talk:Kurzon:

Did you just write all that?! If so, that is brilliant! Or was it just part of a split or something? J Milburn 10:08, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank's for the complement (I wrote most of it), but it was a newby cut-n-paste. --Sadi Carnot 18:52, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I've just undone a "cut n paste" move to History of molecular theory and redirected that page back here. I am in agreement with the renaming, but it seems that discussion should precede the change and the move should be done correctly once consensus is established to keep the page history and talk page connected. Vsmith 15:01, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

• I'm not in favor of a move. The title as is, is simple. The proposed name change over-complicates the title, i.e. "molecular theory". A similar case occurred here with the History of the brain (which I started), where a newbie attempted to move it to History of brain studies, which again overcomplicates the title. --Sadi Carnot 18:52, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
• The history of molecules began billions of years ago when two atoms joined to create the first ever molecule (ask a particle physicist what it could've been). The history of molecular theory began only a few centuries ago (or a few thousand years if you consider the ancient philosophers). Two different things. And if the average Wikipedia reader cannot easily grasp the phrase "molecular theory" then he won't be able to grasp the article anyway. I vote that the name should be changed.Kurzon 18:59, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
• Redirects should take care of all the possible alternate titles. One such redir could be History of the molecule concept. My vote is keep the current title but create redirects. --Unconcerned 03:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comment

I put a nucleosynthesis “other uses” tag at the top so clarify that this article is not about the history of element or molecular formation following the big bang.

Also, one of the main problems with a suggested name change is that there really is no such thing as “molecular theory”; hence, how can there be a “history of molecular theory”, e.g. see: Google search results. There are, however, related topics such as molecular orbital theory, kinetic molecular theory, Six Postulates of the Kinetic Molecular Theory, On the Motion Required by the Molecular Kinetic Theory of Heat of Small Particles Suspended in a Stationary Liquid, etc. I also agree with Unconcerned about redirects. I will add those per the suggestion. --Sadi Carnot 17:23, 2 March 2007 (UTC)