Talk:History of the United States Republican Party

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[edit] Rename

"History of United States Republican Party" is ungrammatical, and the official name of the party is simply the "Republican Party." I therefore propose renaming this article "History of the Republican Party of the United States." -choster 01:06, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I disagree - the current name reads fine. Schizmatic 22:41, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Hampshire founded the party in 1853

There are more than 13 references available that support and document the fact that the first GOP meeting was in Exeter on Oct 12, 1853, many months before the later meeting in Ripon, Wisconsin. These references include the state GOP website (which should know its own history), several books, the US Congress' own databases, among others. Rjensen is engaging in one more campaign of history suppression.Citizenposse 17:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NH 1953 myth

The myth that the party was founded in 1853 in New Hampshire is rejected by every scholar. See the Gould and Gienapp books for recent scholarship. A few locals in New Hampshire may believe it--it was heavily pushed by Gov Gregg (father of the Senator). Fact is the word "republican" was often used before 1854--it goes back to Jefferson! But the PARTY was not founded in 1853 in NH or anywhere else. Gregg simply misunderstood what happened. See Lex Renda history on NH politics Civil War-Era Politics in New Hampshire (1997) p 224 Rjensen 17:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Many of my references predate Hugh Gregg's book, ergo Gregg's work is not sole source. The Ripon claim is only supported by Democrats like Russel Feingold. Citizenposse 17:17, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Gregg certainly had a bee in his bonnet. But in fact the Exeter meeting did not lead to anything whatever. Gregg admits the minutes are lost, and the newspaper account is vague. No other town in NH followed Exeter. No newspaper reported the new party, it did not announce itself. There was no platform or manifesto or statement. It was a well kept secret in 1853! All scholars reject it. Senator Gregg--son of Gov Gregg--does push it to honor the memory of his father. But it's local myth. Rjensen 17:24, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
It's in Amos Tuck's own autobiography. He was a congressman at the time, btw. I have contacted the New Hampshire Historical Society to provide us with other scholarly references. I hope you are open minded enough to consider them, and not just intent on ramrodding your own orthodoxy.Citizenposse 17:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
There probably was a secret meeting in 1853 but it did not lead to anything. Tuck supported the "People's Party" in the state 1854 elections. Tuck did indeed in 1856 help start the Republican Party in New Hampshire. But not 1853--there was NO new party that came out of that meeting. Rjensen 17:56, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Show some references for your allegations. There is nothing in his autobiography on any "People's Party" work. "PROBABLY" a secret meeting??? What kind of a scholarly jump to conclusions is that? Where do you get off deciding what is orthodox history or not? I've provided ample references to the public records that the meeting occured. You are the one inventing the cloak and dagger. Citizenposse 22:29, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request for Mediation

I have requested mediation over this dispute. You have made two personal attacks against me, slandering me with claims that I am some sort of militia groups right winger, and you have violated the wikipedia limit against reverting a page more than three times in one day.Citizenposse 18:07, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Mediation may be a good idea. People who pick militia names and denounce leftwingers tend to give themselves away. By the way, Tuck did not join the Republican party until 2+ years after he founded it. New-York Daily Times. Free-Soil Convention in Boston. New York Daily Times (1851-1857). New York, N.Y.: Feb 17, 1854. p. 1 gives full text of Tuck speech he gave to the Free Soil party convention in Boston the day before

--makes no mention of the word "republican" or any new party. Rjensen 18:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

In that era, there were no prohibitions on individuals belonging to multiple political parties. He was elected to congress as a Free Soiler prior to his GOP organizing meeting in Exeter, and in that day and age, an individual stayed listed with the party they were elected under until the next election, or they left office. Politicians did not jump parties and retain office. If my name were "Lionel" would you prejudicially assume I were african-american? You expose your own bigotry and ignorance by making such aspersions. I am also fully capable of denouncing right wingers, as I am neither right or left wing. I assumed you were left winger because it appears from history that it was Democrats from Wisconsin trying to hijack history with the Ripon claim.Citizenposse 20:35, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I am confused. What about finding your position to lack sufficient evidence to support it have to do with Democrats or Wisconsin? RGTraynor 20:42, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
The Ripon claim is promoted by Democrats, namely Senator Russell Feingold, who introduced a bill in the Senate in 2004 claiming Ripon as the founding place of the GOP. This bill was not created by Republicans.Citizenposse 20:44, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
For pity's sake, the GOP's own web site [1] supports the Ripon position. Are you genuinely trying to claim that the US Republican Party is being secretly controlled by liberal Democrats? RGTraynor 20:46, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
The NH GOP's website (which I've referenced) claims otherwise.Citizenposse 22:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Somehow I think the Republican National Committee's POV is more reliable than that of self-promoting Granite Staters with puffed-up notions of themselves. In any event I still eagerly await your sourced explanation of how Democrats have taken over the GOP.
You have also committed fraud here. There is no such website as www.conservative.net, www.conservativenet.net, www.conservativenet.com. So I dispute your claim to being a conservative.Citizenposse 20:44, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
It took me about four seconds (Google was slow) to find CONSERVATIVENET@LISTSERV.UIC.EDU, edited by Richard Jensen. RGTraynor 20:56, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I googled and found nothing. Is it a one man email list or a blog? Sounds to me like a lone person with an axe to grind.Citizenposse 22:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Ah, I find I was right, it's not a blog (despite his claims), it is an email list. According to one source: "The moderator of the list is Richard Jensen, an emeritus professor of history at the University of Illinois, Chicago (rjensen@uic.edu) and the list is sponsored by that school. The dean of the university is Stanely Fish who has written a book called "There's No Such Thing As Free Speech." No surprise there. In fact the exchange between Jensen and myself (especially if he is an academic who imagines himself to be a conservative) illustrates the magnitude of the problem presented by a one-party culture, accustomed to an ethos of intellectual intolerance and to preening itself on being "liberal" when confronted by a campaign that seeks to make it inclusive and fair to non-party viewpoints. If you thought Stalinism was bad, just imagine what these people would be like if they had a gulag at their disposal instead of sensitivity training classes, and if they commanded the powers of the KGB instead of the English Department."
"What precipitated our exchange was the perfectly reasonable assumption of Greg Ransom of the Hayek Center that maybe a list like ConservativeNet (already an Internet ghetto for academic untouchables) might be the place to post the case for academic fairness and inclusion outlined on the pages of Frontpagemagazine.com this week. How wrong he was. Jensen refused to post the Frontpage articles , using several preposterous pretexts to do so. The irony that he was suppressing a complaint about the university's suppression of dissenting viewpoints seems to have escaped him entirely." The source goes on to document an email exchange with Jensen.
So it appears Prof. Jensen has an established record of suppressing free speech and attempting to suppress history. It also appears that Prof. Jensen is a self proclaimed "conservative" in order to engage in a campaign of shifting the political middle to the left. Furthermore, Jensen USES HIS OWN RESEARCH as references for his articles on the Republican Party. Isn't that a violation of the no original research rule?Citizenposse 22:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Richard Jensen has also been implicated in election fundraising scandals. Given his political operations are in Wisconsin, his claims for Ripon should be given NO GREATER credence than mine. I have sources, he has sources, my sources show a party being organized before his Wisconsin meeting.Citizenposse 23:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I have never lived in Wisconsin and have not visited the state in over 20 years; I have never been involved in any fundraising for any party anywhere. I'm retired and live in Denver. Re Tuck: All the "sources" come from Tuck himself years later or from an elderly NH politician named Hugh Gregg (he was governor in 1952; his son is now the very powerful US Senator Judd Gregg, and as the newspapers report, he supports his late father 100%.) (I used to live in NH and once met the elder Gregg.) Gregg even founded--and funded--a group in NH to promote his pet theory. Historians have unanimously rejected the claim--which comes from a plaque on an old hotel. Did Amos Tuck found the republican party in 1853? he did not say so at the time. He did not join the Republican party until 1856. In 1854 he was campaigning for his old party (The Free Soil). The secret 1853 meeting had no minutes or reports. No followup. No ticket. None of the participants joined the Republican party for a year or two. The secret meeting produced no documents of ANY kind. It was not reported at the time. What sort of party is that? The Republican party was set up in NH by Tuck in 1856, over two years after the secret meeting. By then it was a major party in many states. The actual history has been reported many times by many scholars. Tuck in his autobiog years later claimed that at the meeting he said "republican" would be a good name for a new party. Indeed, it was a good name; it was Jefferson's name for HIS party and was in common use in New Hampshire when Tuck was young. For details see Democratic-Republican Party (United States) esp the talk page. But Tuck's 1853 group did not found anything. Rjensen 23:19, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
"Richard Jensen has also been implicated in election fundraising scandal"? Your link points to a Wisconsin story about Wisconsin Assembly speaker Scott Jensen's legal troubles and his employee Carrie Richard's testimony. You might want to be a tad more selective when Googling "Richard Jensen". FinFangFoom 00:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Beyond that, for someone who complains bitterly about personal attacks, you launch them at the drop of a hat. First you start screeching libel and slander at Rjensen because he makes the (correct) observation that any "Republic of New Hampshire" is a fantasy invented by modern-day so-called "militia" groups. Then you screech fraud at him because you can't find a www.conservativenet.com, ignoring that he never asserted that he had a website by that name. Then you come up with what is a genuine libel in asserting (falsely) that he's been involved in fundraising scandals. The funny thing is that it'd be defensible to speculate that you were a "militia" type, on as sound grounds that if I had UN="HeydrichGauleiter" it might be inferred I had Nazi sympathies, or that if I had UN="KnightWhiteCamellia" I might hold KKK sympathies. Perhaps if you don't want to be associated with militia groups, you should select a UN less in keeping with their buzzwords.
Be that as it may, Prof. Jensen and I are on different sides of the political spectrum; I left the Republican Party in 1980 when it was hijacked by fantasists who demonized patriotic Americans and borrowed our nation into penury owned by foreign investors. But what I am seeing here is an unwarranted and unprovoked vendetta, and urge you to take stock and stop. RGTraynor 14:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The only person engaging in a vendetta here is Mr. Jensen, who is stalking my edits around the wikipedia. Here are additional references from the New Hampshire Historical Society all supporting the 1853 founding in New Hampshire:

  • McGiffen, Stephen Paul. Prelude to Republicanism: Issues in the Development of Political Parties in New Hampshire, 1835-1847 (1984)
  • Bright, Thomas R. The Emergence of the Republican Party in New Hampshire 1853-1857 (1972)
  • Sewell, Richard H. John P. Hale and the Politics of Abolition (1965)
  • Marston, Philip W. Amos Tuck and the Beginning in New Hampshire of the Republican Party Historical New Hampshire (1960)
  • Moos, Malcom. The Republicans - A History of their Party (1956)
  • Burbank, Russel P. Exeter, The Birthplace of the Republican Party (1954)
  • Frasier, Dudley P. The Antecedents & Formation of the Republican Party in New Hampshire 1845-1860 (1947)

All of the above are recognised and respected historians, so Rjensens claim that "all historians" accept the Ripon claim is also a lie. Rjensen is engaging in cherry picking his sources to support his contention.Citizenposse 18:30, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

"All of the above are recognised and respected historians" -- what is your source for this? Do you know any of their vitae curriculae? To what peer review were their claims submitted? How many of them are not from New Hampshire? Beyond that, I note you do not address your numerous personal attacks on Jensen; you've neither apologized for calling his assertion to host the conservativenet list a fraud, nor apologized for your grossly-misspoken allegation of electoral fraud. RGTraynor 19:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Did citizenposse read any of those pamphlets and books he lists? He never quotes any of them. He also missed the most important recent book on the subject: Lex Renda. Running on the Record: Civil War-Era Politics in New Hampshire. Charlottesville: University Press of Virginia, 1997. See my review at [2]. Rjensen 21:22, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually citizenposse is inventing things again. The NH-specific books he lists don't quite exist (except the Sewell book exists). For example, Frasier, Dudley P. "The Antecedents & Formation of Rep Party" was not a book but a 90pp typescript--probably a student paper; it was never published and the only copy is at the Dartmouth College library. No library anywhere seems to own: Burbank, Russel P. Exeter, The Birthplace of the Republican Party or Bright, Thomas R. The Emergence of the Republican Party. Marston, Philip W. Amos Tuck and the Beginning... is not a book but an article in the state magazine, which he would be aware of if he actually saw it. So I suggest he pulled these titles out of a bibliography and never actually read any of them. Rjensen 21:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I did some research on the titles myself, and I'm done. I don't know whether Posse's ignorance is deliberate or not, but I've no use for someone who just grabs article titles out of the air and declares their authors respected historians just because he wants them to be. That kind of bad faith poisons the atmosphere. RGTraynor 03:06, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Well one more: Prelude to Republicanism issues in realignment of political parties in New Hampshire, 1835-1847

by Steven Paul McGiffen is not a book but an unpublished dissertation from a British University available only on microfilm. It does not cover the 1853-56 era anyway. So what we have here are fake "sources" that commonposse did not in fact ever look at. Rjensen 03:15, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it is Rjensen who is lying again. I got these references from the New Hampshire Historical Society, whose in house historian provided them to me. I have now provided over two dozen references, which blows out of the water Rjensens claims that "NO HISTORIAN" supports the Exeter, NH claim. I will also note that Rjensen has not produced any similarly sized list of references, and in fact, he REFERENCES HIS OWN WORK in his article. He is also making false accusation in claiming that I claim they are books. What does it matter if its a dissertation or a book? Rjensen is engaging in illegitimate attacking of the format of the reference. Such is a logical fallacy. Citizenposse 19:06, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Citizenposse now blames other people for giving him fake titles of books that do not exist. The major book is by Renda and yes indeed I did review it for publication. It clearly lists the NH parties that were active in 1853-54-55 and they did NOT include the Republican party--this mystery party that was "founded" in 1853. We still do not have any historian who supports commonposse's claim; his "recognised and respected historians" in fact did not write books and did not support his far-fetched theory. He cites books he never has seen--some never existed--which is a clear sign of a hoax. What is funny is that Senator Judd Gregg (son of Gov Hugh Gregg who promoted Tuckism) 10 years back required all GOP candidates campaigning in the state primary to declare that NH 1853 was the founding of the GOP. That is beyond hilarious. (they all lost of course and Clinton was elected) Rjensen 19:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Posse and Jensen:

I came here hopeful to find an explaination and walk upon your debate. I have comments for both of you. Mr. Jensen:Wikipedia may be an open encyclopedia, but you have no rights to go around messing with other peoples entries unless they are FUNDEMENTALLY wrong (ie: The Republican Party was founded in India on an Elephant. That you may delete) But urban legends and myths have a place here. Historically and culturally, myths and legends have been a part of our lives. If Posse wants to post an legend here, he has ALL RIGHTS TO and you have NONE of editing it otherwise. I think that if he has evidence (the book list, calling the NHHS) then the myth does NOT have to be accepted as truth but as a possible scenario in which the party was formed. It has a right to be here. Posse: Thanks for the interesting info. If you have read my opinion of Jensen, then you know that you are truly doing nothing wrong. That's what this website is all about. Collecting information. If 35% of the population as of today believes that the Republican party was founded in New Hampshire, then it belongs here, but not as a definate statement. I haven't got a chance to look at the history pages, but if you did not broadly state the the Republican party was founded in NH, you were in the right.

If it is any consolation to you two, I EDITED the page and put a new header:

[edit] Founding

While sources are not exactly clear, it is believed that the Rupublican Party was founded in a schoolhouse at Ripon, Wisconson in 1854 but others say it was founded in Exeter, New Hampshire on Oct 12, 1853. There is no conclusive evidence to support either of these claims, but the first statement is the one generally accepted by historians and put into textbooks and other scholarly materials. A couple books support the latter and the New Hampshire Historic Society says the second opinion is truth.

--CherryT 02:04, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Nope--see discussion at length above. see the recent histories of the GOP by Gould or Gienapp. The Exeter meeting wasd a failure--all the people there stayed with their old parties for another 2 years (including Tuck). Rjensen 02:24, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Use of the term "Democrat Party"

The section of the article on this matter begins The context has usually been negative--but not always, as when President George W. Bush declared, during a visit to Georgia that he was traveling "with proud members of the Democrat Party." I don't see that the use of the term "Democrat Party" here HAS to be positive. The President could have been (a) taking a subtle dig at the Democrats, or (b) using the term out of habit. (With all due respect, George W. Bush is not known for extremely fine nauances of wording.) I'm proposing to delete all but the first five words of the sentence, to make it more NPOV, but would welcome further discussion. 20:24, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Bush always uses the adjective "Democrat" in both friendly and hostile contexts. Some bloggers have alleged the term is always used in hostile sense, which is refuted by the example. keep. Rjensen 20:24, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
See Democrat Party (phrase); where all the sources, none of them bloggers, see it as overwhelmingly offensive and opprobrious. If it has gotten here, I will remove it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism repaired

I restored the entire section on the Progressive era that had been blanked out. I also restored the "party system" heading that are of use to the 100,000 students a year who take AP Government and are tested on party systems. One suspects that many thousands of them come to Wikipedia for help. Rjensen 22:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Certainly there should be a section on the Progressive Era; but it should be called that, not the virtually meaningless and factually disputable Fourth Party System. However, any article which can use such phrases as "Lincoln proved brilliantly successful in uniting all the factions of his party..." is both non-neutral and in factual error (Frémont was a small faction, but a real one) to a degree which makes further editing of it pointless. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:15, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
The 3-4-5 party system model is in the textbooks students used. We know that 100,000 a year are tested on it in AP Government. So they need it. As for Lincoln, I think the theme of recent studies like Goodwyn to emphasize Lincoln's amazing success in holding the party together esp at cabinet level. When it's the consensus of scholrs, Wiki editors must report that and are not allowed to present their own personal OR. Goodwin says Lincoln "was a brilliant politician. I mean, think about this man who was able to bring into his cabinet all of his rivals, men who thought they should have gotten the nomination-- Seward and Chase and Bates-- and somehow bring them in. He understood how to deal with them, how to compromise without compromising principle, how to take mistakes and accept them for himself rather than blaming others." and Goodwin uses "genius" in title. Richardson says "This brilliant strategy harnessed their formidable political ambitions". Lincoln was "cautious, brilliant and lucky, the pilot who kept trying to steer the ship to the middle of the river" says David W. Blight. Rjensen 00:29, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Some textbooks, not others; as for Lincoln, the quotes do not support the language you defend; but then no quote could; as should be shown by this conversation. I am arguing about 1864, you about 1861. Hopelessly vague. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:17, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
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