Talk:History of Taiwan

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[edit] Japanese Rule is Good

This implies that China was more than happy to give Taiwan away and many Taiwanese believed Japanese rule was good because it led to a "Golden age" in the island. Any comments?

[edit] NPOV discussion

218.170.X.XXX - Please keep whatever you add in accordance to Wikipedia's NPOV policy. The language you use anti-KMT and you call the Taiwanese an "ethnic" group. Please back up your assertions with reputable sources. Your info about the Cairo Declaration will not stay unless you prove that it really did not hand Taiwan back to China. The information I know and have available to me seems to suggest otherwise. Also, it is difficult to prove that Chiang Ching-kuo was "reluctant" to institute reforms. It is better to leave that out how he felt, which is unprovable. Some of your contributions are too detailed and irrelevant. I will start a separate page for the Kaohsiung Incident. It only deserves some mention here, not a complete explanation. Jiang 22:38 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Or maybe it should be proven that Taiwan was given to China. The documents speak volumes. I included a secment from the Cairo Declaration itself and a summary of the Japanese surrender. The two documents must be viewed in the context of international law, a case I tried to illuminate in brief. I can elaborate on this some more...

"It is their purpose that Japan shall be stripped of all the islands in the Pacific which she has seized or occupied since the beginning of the First World War in 1914, and that all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, and the Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China. " [Released w/o Signatures] Please do elaborate on how Taiwan was not legally ceded to the ROC. I will add the info on how it was "an unsigned press release." Article II of the Peace Treaty signed by Japan and the ROC on April 28, 1952: "It is recognised that under Article 2 of the Treaty of Peace which Japan signed at the city of San Francisco on 8 September 1951 (hereinafter referred to as the San Francisco Treaty), Japan has renounced all right, title, and claim to Taiwan (Formosa) and Penghu (the Pescadores) as well as the Spratley Islands and the Paracel Islands." [[1]] Jiang

So we can see by the text from the documents there is some disagreement in the facts. "It is their purpose that Japan shall be stripped of all the islands in the Pacific which she has seized or occupied since the beginning of the First World War in 1914.." Taiwan was not seized since the first world war as it was ceded to Japan following the signing of the Treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895 as a condition of peace. "and that all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, and the Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China." In the frameworks of international law there is a big difference between ceding land by treaty, which receives the strength of a compact between two parties, like selling a house or a car, and claiming territory through military occupation as waas the case with Kuwait in the Gulf or France during WWII. The Cairo Declaration describes Taiwan as having been stolen by Japan, but that was not the case as Taiwan took no part in open hostilities during the first Sino-Japanese War. China accepted the terms of the Treaty of Shimonoseki as law and even sent representatives (One being future governor Chen Yi) to Taiwan in 1920 to congratulate Japan on 25 years of the colony. The Cairo Declaration was also written in 1943 while Taiwan was still under Japanese control. That fact deminished the weight of the document further, as the war was yet to be won. Japan could have surrendered early or even won the war. The Allies had no legal authority to allocate land not belonging to them or under their immediate control. You would not expect to claim the liabilities of property you have not signed for or paid for. At the time the Cairo Declaration was made, Taiwanese were fighting the Allies in the jungles of Burma and as Kamikaze pilots in the Pacific.

First, the comment about Taiwan not being ceded after the beginning WW1 is irrelevant because the conjuction "and" is used in the same sentence. Second, the Cairo Declaration is not an official document, just a press release of what the allies discussed at the Cairo Conference and agreed to do after the war was over. The Declaration was simple exaggerating the term "steal," in classifing the entire first Sino-Japanese War as a needless Japanese provocation and the subsequent treaty signed as unfair. Jiang

Regarding the Treaty of Peace at San Francisco: "Japan has renounced all right, title, and claim to Taiwan (Formosa) and Penghu (the Pescadores) as well as the Spratley Islands and the Paracel Islands." Once again this document supercedes all others, as this is when Japan ranounces its claims over territory it had occupied. Keeping in mind Taiwan's prior status as being contractually the property of Japan, Japan gives up Taiwan and quite clearly does not transfer ownership to the R.O.C. How can the R.O.C. claim ownership of Taiwan if it was not directly ceded to the R.O.C.? Taiwan was simply left up in the air. The UN Charter as likely to be invoked to allow a plebcite as was done with Okinawa as the UN clearly canonized the fundamental rights of all people for self determination. The conflict lies in the same document protecting territorial integrity based loosely on the state succession theory. Could you please repair my other link to this site?

Please note article 4 of the same treaty, which states, "It is recognised that all treaties, conventions, and agreements concluded before 9 December 1941 between Japan and China have become null and void as a consequence of the war." Therefore, the treaty ceding Taiwan to Japan in the first place was also nulled. Therefore, China no longer on paper had ceded Taiwan.Jiang 02:32 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I think the indocuments do not clarify the situation as Taiwan was not ceded to anyone and the Cairo Declaration had little weight as a plan rather than a treaty.

Although this is not an editorial page, my close friend and collegue wrote a letter on the subject of R.O.C. legitamacy on Taiwan. I included his letter and response from the editor to add to clarify the Cairo and SF Treaty debate. I think the SF Treaty should be included to flesh out the situation, which is so often misunderstood. Many people do not understand why there is a problem or if there is a problem at all. The facts of the documents may be seen as offensive by some, it is not a point of view, but rather the sad course of history. (These are not Copyrighted I hope I can use them to explain if not kill it)

History is a Two-way Street

To the editor,

While your Saturday, June 21 editorial ("Standing Firm Against China's Tricks") was commendable in its goal of defending Taiwan's sovereignty, it contained an all-too-common factual error that has historically added confusion to the issue of Taiwan's right to self-determination.

In explaining the history of the Republic of China (R.O.C.), your editorial stated "...the Republic of China (ROC) has ruled Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen and Matsu. The ROC was founded in 1911, long before the PRC was born in 1949, and the ROC government has all along maintained effective rule over Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen and Matsu."

The problem with this claim is that the ROC never in fact exercised control of any kind over Taiwan and Penghu until the Japanese surrendered in 1945, a full 34 years after its founding in 1911. ?In the eyes of international law, the ROC's claim to Taiwan is therefore no more grounded in reality than the PRC's. ?Further complicating matters for the ROC and PRC is the 1951 Treaty of San Francisco, in which Japan renounced all claims over its former colonies, but never addressed Taiwan's official status as a part of China. As a result any government's legal claim to Taiwan is dubious at best. ?Simply put, the treaty that officially ended the Japanese empire also killed both Nationalist and Communist China's legal claims to Taiwan. ??

It is well documented that the KMT government went out of its way to downplay Taiwan's unique past experience as a part of Japan and questions of its own legitimacy on Taiwan as a way to smother debate over the issue of Taiwanese independence at home and abroad. ?Indeed, this strategy was successful in that the ROC continues to survive today, although in name only. ?As a result of this effective piece of KMT propaganda, many Taiwanese today continue to point out that the PRC has never had actual control over Taiwan as a way to bolster the ROC's legitimacy. ??

While commendable in the face of immediate PRC aggression, this flawed argument will ultimately do nothing but harm to Taiwan's long-term goal of international recognition. ?As long as Taiwan's government continues to add the word "China" to its name, confusion and PRC interference will result. ??Taiwanese need to realize that self-respect and self-determination ultimately lies in burying the rotting corpse of the ROC while embracing the prospect of a sovereign and independent Taiwan free of historic half-truths and fiction.

J.Wright

I don't usually reply to letter writers but I just wanted to commend you on an excellent contribution. The issue to which you refer -- the ROC's claim, or perhaps lack of it, to Taiwan -- is a constant thorn in my side. I agree with you entirely; the facts are as you state them. My problem is that, as is common with newspapers here in Taiwan, I have little control over the content of the editorials. Most of them are written by locals who, no matter if they are politically a strident green in hue, actually believe all this BS about "retrocession" and even forget that there was ever any Japanese occupation at all. One of the problems here is educating the Taiwanese themselves about the reality of their own history, rather than the distorted KMT version of events dished up for the past half century.

Best wishes,

L E Managing editor

The clincher lies in the fact that the R.O.C. took over direct administrative control of Taiwan following the retreat in 1949. The problem lies in the Taiwanese inability to extend the the ROC a mandate to govern. The first mandate was given in 1996 accepting the govenrment, though there is still the issue of state succession and China's claims based on that principle.

Maybe by spelling out the framework of the argument and providing the proper likes we can avoid some bias and allow the principles to speak for themselves...

Regarding the Plains People The Qing authorities adopted the head and corvee taxes on the aborigines, which made the plains aborigines directly responsible for payment to the authorities. To validate their tax policy, Qing officials designated Taiwan?s aborigines based on their ability to pay taxes to the Qing. Those tribes, which submitted to pay taxes were classified as ?Sek Huan?, which literally means ?cooked barbarian?. The tribes, which had not submitted were classifies as ?Se Huan?, or ?raw barbarian?. Later, the two groups were simply distinguished as ?Ping Pu/ Pepo? ( Plains) and ?Gao Shan/Ge Sen? (High Mountain) tribes. The distinction had very little to do with actual similarities or differences as some of the Gao shan tribes lived on the plains as is the case with the Amis tribe. Aborigines as an ethnic group were classically referred to as ?Huan a?, simply meaning ?barbarian?, the same as the classification bestowed on westerners.

Contrary to the popular misconception that the Ping pu tribes, under pressure from Han immigrants, fled to the mountains becoming Gao Shan tribes, the documented facts show that the majority of plains people remained on the plain and are currently residing on their traditional lands. Large areas of the western plain were subject to large land rents ? Huan De Zu? (Barbarian Big Rent), which desisted following the Japanese occupation. The large tracts of deer field, guaranteed by the Qing, was owned by the tribes and their individual members. The tribes would commonly offer Han farmenrs a permanent rent of the top soil, which was called ?two lords to a field? Yi tian liang zu?. Wealthier Han, commonly military leaders, were allowed large rent status of ?government wasteland?. Large rent holders were required to pay taxes of 6-8 shi for every jia . Often the Han and aborigines found creative means to solve their land and tax troubles. The An li tribe in, under the guidance of their official interperator Zhang Da-jing, an ethnic Hakka who had taken seven aborigine brides, the An li tribe transferred ownership of six pieces of land to Han farmers in exchange for the Han?s expertise in building irrigation systems for farming. The plains tribes were often cheated out of land or pressured to sell, some moved, but most remained and changed their names to Chinese names. One account of this ?identity shift? occurs in the area called Rujryck by the Dutch, now part of Taipei city. A document from the seventh year of the Qian long Emperor, and signed by the village heads states, ? We originally had no surnames, please bestow on us the Han surnames, Pan, Chen, Li, Wang, Tan?etc?. Taking a Han name was a necessary step in instilling Confucian values in the aborigines. In the Confucian Qing state, Confucian values were necessary to be recognized as a human ?ren?. A surname would allow the Aborigines to worship their ancestors, pray to gods and conduct in the practices of filial piety. Often, the large groups of immigrant men would unite under a common surname to form a brotherhood. Brotherhoods were used was a form of defence as each sworn brother was bound by an oath of blood to run to the aid of a brother in need. The brotherhood groups would connect their names to a family tree, in essence manufacturing a genealogy based on names rather than blood and taking the place of the kinship organizations commonly found in China. Many plains aborigines joined kinship groups to gain protection from the group as a type of insurance policy and through these groups they took on a Han identity with a Chinese lineage.

The undocumented ?displacement scenario?, which claims Taiwan?s aborigines immigrated to the mountains becoming ?Gao shan zu?, has been exasperated by the migrations of plains tribes during the beginning of the 19th century. The Gao Shan people have been adapted for over one thousand years to high mountain living as projected through their material culture, hunting culture, oral tradition and physical build. The plains subgroups that had resisted becoming farmers like their Han tenants decided to move to areas away from Han interference. In 1804, a group of approximately 1000 plains aborigines moved over the central mountain range to southern Iilan, near present day Luo dong. These groups were mainly drawn from the more disadvantaged families in 30 villages of Changhua and Tanshui counties. A second migration to the Puli basin in 1823 suggests the participants were merely unsettled families and subgroups based on the fact that the migrations resulted in place names in both Iilan and Puli matching the names of their places of origin. By the early 20th century, large tracts were still owned and maintained by the members of the tribes resulting in the Japanese buying up the large pieces for use as airfields, garbage dumps and industrial zones as was the case with the Pan family of Ali Sai She in Tanzi, near Taichung.

How may I document my writing and what is a reputable source? Some of my contributions run a but long as I try to give you a few of the sources. It seems strange to be to be edited for lacking sources and then be replaced by information that lacks reliable sources. I can give you a book list.

Please add your info to the articles Kaohsiung Incident and Taiwanese aborigine where they belong. Let's keep this article as concise as possible. Please review the NPOV. Calling Chiang Ching-kuo a dictator violates the NPOV policy. I try to verify what you post, but a search for James Soong and GIO censorship failed to turn any result. Maybe you can do better. Also, sign you name with four "~". Jiang 04:05 18 Jun 2003 (UTC)

mmmm...Off the top of my head I can remember a nice article by Bo Teddards on the subject. Look for Soong as the GIO director as well. The interne is not a really great tool for this type of thing. I can't think of a better way to describe CCK, how his Marcos described? I'm quite sure Soong called Shih Ming Teh the "King of Bandits" and I have seen the documents on the Kaohsiung Incident on display by the National Archives in which Soong condemned the protestors and vigorously opposed their actions. Look for policy under the GIO during the 1980's and also check dates of censorship along side Soong's tenure as GIO chief. Soong used libel to imprison political advisaries as the rise in that type of crime rose dramatically under Soong. The case in which Chen Shui Bian was sent to jail had to do with accusations of libel for making a claim against Elmer Feng of plagerism, a claim supported by Feng's former professors.

Here's a list of interesting books that can be commonly found on Taiwan: I have not made lists of the volumes of boring dovuments as they are, well, boring.

Formosa Betrayed, by George H Kerr, 1965 Probably the single most important book on Taiwan during the transition between the Japanese colonial rule and the Nationalist Chinese. George Kerr was working for the American Foreign Service at the time and was present in Taiwan for the KMT occupation and resulting aftermath. Kerr is considered to be an expert on Colonial Japan in Taiwan and his work in Formosa Betrayed remains a cornerstone to understanding modern Taiwan. Unfortunately, the English version only made one printing as the KMT bought the English Copyright in 1965 and never let the book resume printing. A full version is available on the internet at: http://formosa.org/~taiwanpg/

Japanese Rule in Formosa, by Yosaburo Takekoshi, 1907 Longmans, Greene and Co., London, New York Bombay and Calcutta With a Forward by Baron Goto Shimpei, the Administrator General of Taiwan, Japanese Rule in Formosa gives a glimpse of the Japanese mindset in the early years of colonization. Not only does Mr. Takekoshi describe Taiwan in detail, but he also exposes the Japanese feeling of vulnerability and pride in constructing a colony in competition with the West.

Thunder Out of China, by Theodore H. White and Annalee Jacoby, 1947 William Sloane Associates, Inc. New York, New York Theodore White was a journalist covering the war in China during the 1940?s and much of his material is based on his first person account of WWII in China. Mr. White chronicles meetings with Chiang Kai Sheck, Mao Ze Dong and other historical figures of the war. Much of Mr. Whites work stands today as source material on this unique period of Chinese history.

The Soong Dynasty, by Sterling Seagrave, 1985 Sidgwick & Jackson, London The Soong Dynasty uses the real life exploits of the Soong family to paint a detailed picture of the rise and fall of the Nationalists in China. This book gives one of the clearest description of the who?s and why?s of this period.

The Anthropology of Taiwanese Society, Edited by Emily Martin Ahern and Hill Gates, 1981, Trustees of the Leland Stanford Junior University - Stanford University Press The Anthropology of Taiwanese Society is a compilation of dissertation essays from the 1970?s and thus much of the information available to modern scholars was not available during the period much of the research was conducted, still, the book gives valuable insight into the many factors which define Taiwanese society especially on ethnic friction between mainlanders and native Taiwanese.

China?s Island Frontier: Studies in Historical Geography of Taiwan, Edited by Ronald G. Knapp,1980, University Press of Hawaii This is an excellent book describing the immigration of Fujienese to the island of Taiwan in a historical geographic setting. The authors clearly have no political agenda, but their work casts a light on understanding the truth behind the first Chinese inhabitants of Taiwan.

Becoming Japanese, by Leo T.S. Ching,2001, University of California Press The anthropological lingo gets a bit thick, but the author still advances his position on the effect Japanese rule had on the Taiwanese identity. Ching pits the two opposing histories of Shih Ming and Lien ____ against one another to push his argument while dividing the periods of colonial rule into three pieces. Although the Japanese only ruled Taiwan for fifty years, Ching demonstrates how those fifty years totally changed the Taiwanese sense of place in the world.

The Search for Modern China, Jonathan D. Spence, 1999,W.W. Norton Company, NY NY Spence is one of the most renowned and reliable China scholars alive today and his Search for Modern China gives a no nonsense approach to China studies. The chronology of the book helps to establish a sense of place and time and makes for reliable reference while checking facts.

Taiwan Early Inhabitants Footsteps, Hong Ying Shen,1993, This is the most conclusive book regarding the eleven tribes of indigenous currently recognized on Taiwan. An abundance of photographic evidence and description helps to demonstrate how each tribe is unique and how they related to their indigenous and immigrant neighbors.

Half of My Life, Yang Ke Huang, Xie Shui-hong 1997 This book is the result of Yang Ke huang?s efforts to write down the account of Communist revolutionary Hsieh Shui Hong?s life from being sold as a child in Taichung, Taiwan to her organization of an ad hoc local government during the March massacre and rebellion on Taiwan. Unfortunately, only half of her life was recorded to paper.

Taiwan at the End of the 20th Century: the Gains and Losses, Jou-juo Chu, 2001, Tonsan Publications Inc. This small book, only 200 pages, attempts to highlight the direction Taiwanese society is heading and focuses on many of the problems facing Taiwan in the 21st Century

Among The Head-Hunters of Formosa, Janet B. Montgomery McGovern,1922, Small Maynard and company, Boston Although the book was written in 1922, it still captures the feeling of what was then considered ?Wild Formosa.? Janet Montgomery McGovern was an anthropologist who braved the jungles of Taiwan to meet and study the head hunting tribes of the mountains. The Japanese authorities considered her insane and tried to persuade her from her adventure as the jungles of Taiwan were considered no place for a woman. The book actually makes some very insightful connections to modern Taiwan and a respect for the people of the mountains.

Formosa Calling, by Allan J. Shackelton, (1948 re.1999) (Chinese Translation) Taiwan Publishing Company, Monte Vista CA. Shackelton was an Auckland born participant in the UNNRA relief group working in Taiwan following the Japanese surrender. Shackelton?s work is directly from his diary as he travels Taiwan and witnesses the atrocities of the KMT and perceives the sentiments of the Taiwanese people in the face of a new occupying power.

The Yamato Dynasty, by Sterling Seagrave, 1999,Random House, London In this work by Seagrave, he attempts to uncover the political intrigue of the house of Meiji in 19th and 20th Century Japan. The Yamato Dynasty digs into the power behind the Japanese throne during WWII and the post war period.

Legal Reasoning and Political Conflict, by Cass R. Sunstein, 1997, Oxford University Press Sunstein is actually professor Karl Llewellen from the University of Chicago?s Law School. Llewellen?s book deconstructs political thought to analyze it from the inside and demonstrate how conflict is solved in politics and law.

The Republic of Taiwan, Zhang Yen Xian, 2000 Wu San press, Taipei The Republic of Taiwan is explained in this book from construction to its collapse.

From Far Formosa, by Geo.L.Mackay, 1896, London George Mackay arrived in Taiwan as a missionary to preach the gospel to the aborigines. He stayed and married an aboriginal woman and continued his work until his death. Mackay gives a unique view of Taiwan from the missionary perspective to give a rich description of the island through foreign eyes.

The Formosa Encounter: Notes on Formosa?s Aboriginal Society: A Selection of Documents from Dutch Archival Sources, 1636-1645 Edited by Leonard Blusse, 2000, Shung Ye Museum of Formosan Aborigines. A great archival source regarding the life of Aborigines on Taiwan before the influence of the Chinese.

Pioneering In Formosa: by W.A. Pickering, 1898, Rrprinted by SMC Publishing INC, 1993. A British officer?s account of Taiwan, this is a really great reference book and a darned good tale.

The Making of the Taiwan Relations Act: Twenty Years in Retrospect, by David TaWei Lee, 2000, Oxford University Press, This book chronicles the creation of the Taiwan Relations Act from the very beginning and sheds light on the political deal-making that went on behind the scenes.

The Hunters and Their Tribes: Studies in the History and Culture of the Taiwan Indigenous People. Edited by David Faure, 2001, SMC Publishing, Taipei, with the assistance of the Shung Ye Museum of Formosan Aborigines, A compilation of studies of the Aboriginal People of Taiwan.

Spaniards in Taiwan: Vol I and Vol II ?1582-1641, Translated by Jose Eugeno Boraro Mateo, 2001, SMC Publishing, Taipei, This is a collection of Spanish Documents regarding Taiwan. The book is in Spanish with an English translation.

International Law Frameworks, by David J. Bederman, 2001, Foundation Press, New York-New York. A basic outline of international law and its function in world agreements.

Statecraft and Political Economy on the Taiwan Frontier1600-1800, by John Robert Shepherd, 1993, Stanford University Press. A detailed account of the development of Taiwan from an aboriginal society to a frontier under Qing authority. This book is exceedingly valuable for its description of Qing statecraft in Taiwan and the use of land tax in ethnic relations.

Formosa Under the Dutch, WM. Campbell, Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & Company Ltd. London 1903, Reprinted by SMC Publishing Inc., 2001, One of the most extensively cited books on the Dutch colony on Taiwan. Campbell uses translations of original Dutch records to illuminate this period of history.

Memories of the Future: National Identity Issues and the Search for a New Taiwan Edited by Stephane Corcuff, M.E. Sharpe, Inc 2002, A list of essays on the development of a Taiwanese identity. This collections offers a fair and intelligent examination into the modern pressures that are forming the Taiwanese identity and the Taiwanese attitudes towards China.

Taiwan in the Twentieth Century: A Retrospective View, Edited by Richard Louis Edmonds and Steven M. Goldstein, Cambridge University Press, 2001, A collection of essays from the China Quarterly Journal dealing with Taiwan?s economy, society and literature.

Tribes of South Taiwan in the 1880?s: Papers by George Taylor, Edited by Glen Dudbridge, Shung Yi Museum of Formosan Aborigines Institute of Taiwan History, Academia Sinica, Taipei, 1999, This book gives a European view of Taiwan before the 20th century. Taylor?s letters are accompanied by letters from Swinhoe, Dodd, Beazeley and Collingwood. Unfortunately, much of what we know about the highland tribes is due to the notes of European explorers like Taylor. The Chinese were not interested in exploring the mountains.

Natives of Formosa: British Reports of the Taiwan Indigenous People, 1650-1950, Edited by Henrietta Harrison, Shung Yi Museum of Formosan Aborigines Institute of Taiwan History, Academia Sinica, Taipei, 2001, This volume contains documents relating to first hand accounts of Taiwanese Aborigines.

Through Formosa An Account of Japan?s Island Colony, by Owen Rutter, T. Fisher Ltd, London 1923, Reprinted by SMC Publishing Inc., 1995,1990, Rutter gives an enjoyable tourist account of his trip through Taiwan under the watchful eye of his Japanese minder. The academic value of this book lies in the Japanese reaction to showing an Englishman around. Most interesting are the sites they chose to show him as selected information to take back to England. It shows Japanese intentions for Taiwan and betrays their inferiority complex in the colonization game.

Taiwan?s Informal Diplomacy and Propaganda, by Gary D. Rawnsley, St. Martin?s Press Inc., New York NY, 2000, A dry but committed look into how the R.O.C. managed its diplomacy during the last half of the 20th century.

Art and Cultural Politics in Post War Taiwan, by Jason C. Kuo, University of Washington Press, 2000, Interesting look at an often forgotten aspect of politics.

You should also add a new book edited by Murray Rubenstein. A History of Taiwan. In Chinese there is also the famous Five (?) Hundred Years of Taiwan History. -- User:Roadrunner

The 400 Years of Taiwan History by Shih Ming is excellent. I saw him not too long ago, he's getting old, but still full of ideas. He is often pitted against Lien Chan's grandfather. I would argue for a longer history, say 6000 years or 10,000 years.

I have a whole list of good books in Chinese too, I'll think about translating the names and posting them, but it might be irrelavant considering this is an English page and I guess we ought to suggest books accessable in English...shucks!

Probably it's best to thing to do is to summarize a lot of the material and put it into the article. There is starting to be a lot of academic material on Taiwan, but very little introductory material for the outside layman on Taiwanese history. There are still a lot of periods where discussing history is still difficult. -- User:Roadrunner

Yeah, It just pecomes polarized due to the unresolved status of Taiwan. What do you think should be added? I'm trying, though not very successfully, to restrain myself from flooding the layman with too much, but it reminds me of a conversation I had with an editor from the BBC, who basically said that they know about the inconstancies between the true, documented status of Taiwan and what the general public knows about Taiwan. He explained that the BBC continues a policy of maintaining the old status quo because, although it is not factual, it would take too long to educate the general public who knows nothing about Taiwan. It seems to me They don't want to ruffle feathers. I wouldn't trust them if you would like to be better informed.

Changed "ban in publicly speaking Taiwanese" to restrictions on the use of Taiwanese in the broadcast media. I don't recall Taiwanese ever being banned in general (yes it was banned in schools). -- Roadrunner

[edit] "Without regret"?

Taken from #Koxinga and Imperial Chinese Rule:

" As settlement for losing the Sino-Japanese War, Imperial China ceded the entire island of Taiwan to Japan in 1895 without regret. "

I have hidden the words "without regret". It is not neutral, and it is not acceptable in an encyclopedia article about history. — Insta ntnood 12:12, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)

I concede that it's a bit judgemental. However, you do read that in articles from western observers in the News. I have no problem with removing that. Thanks for your comment. :)Mababa 06:11, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It's no problem to keep the words "without regret". But it should not be presented in this way, rather, in the manner like "some historians (?) consider Li Hung Chang's (or Li Hongzhang's) comment revealed that the Qing government ceded it without regret". — Insta ntnood 19:51, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lack of evidence

If anyone can find any credible evidence of Han explorations of Taiwan prior to the 16th century I'd love to see it.

I would also like to explain some changes:

1) I have substituted the word Han for Chinese to more accurately reflect the view of group identity during the period of prior to Japanese colonization. The term "Chinese" reflects a modern notion of belonging to China, a nation state that was conceived in the latter part of the 19th century by Chinese nationalists trying to modernize China in the face of European expansion. The term "Chinese" is a European term for the people who resided along the East Asian coast. There are NO records of Qing subjects feeling a united sense of "oneness" as Chinese and this is illustrated in Taiwan's history, in which feuding was common among Changzhou, Chuanzhou, Hakkas and Aborigines. These people obviously saw each other as "other". The term "Han" more accurately describes the Confucio-cultural structures of society on the Fujian coast in the 17th century.

Curiously, the term "Han" is also suspect for similar reasons. There wasn't very much group identity among Han Chinese in opposition against "non-Han" until the late 19th century. At one level people had extremely local group identities. At the elite level, the concept was between the "civilized" and the "barbarian" and at that level you had a lot of in-group identity. So there was certainly a sense of "oneness," it just didn't correspond to modern notions of the nation-state.

Also, as a general note, one must not confuse feuding with the sense of "other." There are many historical causes where people who have had bitter and violent battles with people who they felt kinship with. At another level, people also get along really well with the "other."

I can fight like crazy with my brother, and at the same time get along really well with Lebanese Arabs.

Issues of group identity are highly complex.

Roadrunner 01:42, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

2) I replaced the term "mainland China" in the Japanese Era section to simply China to reflect the reality that there was no other China at that time in history as Taiwan was a colony of Japan and was not trying to be represented as China.

User: 24.19.37.237

I have reverted the statement which regard the Chinese discover as fact. Please show us that the Chinese flag was raised in Taiwan during the Three Kingdom expedition if anyone wants to insert that statement, otherwise we can only treat it as a POV, not a fact.Mababa 01:32, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have general issues with anyone using the term "discover." If anyone can claim to have discovered Taiwan, it was the aboriginals, and maybe not even then. Roadrunner 01:42, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Need much more justification for this. I haven't noticed a surge in the use of Min-Nan since Chen Shui-Bian's election. There was a huge shift, but most of that happened in the early to mid-1990's. Also, it is believed by whom exactly?

Roadrunner 02:09, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I feel the paragraph on "'Suspicious' History in Chinese History Records" is written rather badly. Grammar and spelling errors are littered throughout. Moreover, 1. and 2. described which occur before the 12th century are highly disputable claims. Shouldn't these be held off until more concrete evidence surfaces?

[edit] The new Taiwanese identity

After the liberal, Taiwanese nationalist Democratic Progressive Party was elected and came to power in 2000, Taiwanese influences that had been dormant under Nationalist rule have become stronger. "Taiwanese" (a language known as Southern Min (闽南话), Amoy (厦语) or Hokkien (福建话)) has been used much more often, and it is believed that in coming years, the influence of Mandarin Chinese will diminish.

Roadrunner 02:16, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Need to cite the source of the polls, and also need to have more than two points. For example one thing that isn't mentioned is that pretty much all of the polls I've seen indicate that people with "dual identity" has remained steady at around 40% since 1992. The number responding Taiwanese only has gone up and the under responding Chinese only has gone down. There's also the issue of noise. The responses of people to people on the unification-independence-status quo question tends to have a lot of noise in the U versus I.

This also needs to be seen in the context of the 12/2004 elections. Pan-green thought that they could use identity politics to get a majority in the legislature. They were wrong.

Also, this really isn't history....

Roadrunner 02:16, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

While public perception on the cultural identity of Taiwan have shifted away from Han Chinese the specific percentages are very dependent on how polls are worded. Because of this and the propensity of different interest groups to influence polls, actual identification numbers are difficult to ascertain.

Under Chen's presidency there has been a significant shift in public opinion regarding Taiwan's relation to China. In March 2000 a poll showed that 8% of Taiwanese wanted rapid independence from China. By November 2004 that number had jumped to 21%, and another 10% wanted slow independence. The number of people wanting rapid reunification declined to 6% from 9% four years earlier. Likewise, a poll from September 2004 showed for the first time more citizens of Taiwan considered themselves "Taiwanese" (45%) rather than "Taiwanese and Chinese" (41%).

We can's have Taiwan History without 228. 228 is one of the most important events to shape the Taiwanese imagination of their place in Asia and its effects are still being felt today.

Who deleted that... ?

[edit] editing problem (grammar)

"Only after Japan renounced signed the Treaty of San Francisco in 1951..." What does "renounced signed" mean...? Ling.Nut 00:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vienna Convention of succession of States

The Vienna Convention came into force around 10 years ago. [2] The sentence removed cited a source claiming that the Vienna Convention had not come into force, which is simply not true. Tonyobrienuk 23:09, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Japanese invasions"

I find it a bit strange that the section about Japanese involvement in Formosa in the Edo period (1603-1868) and just prior should be labeled "Japanese invasions". Were there a handful of isolated incidents in which independent pirates, privateers, or daimyo (warlords) sought to seize portions of the island? Yes. But was this a focussed, guided invasion of the entire island by a formal Japanese military? No. Read any Japanese history book and you'll see that, prior to the 19th and 20th centuries, Taiwan appears as barely more than a footnote. Hideyoshi sent a samurai to Formosa in the 1580s or 1590s with a letter for their king asking that he submit to Hideyoshi's sovereignty and supremacy. Failing to find a king, or in fact any kind of organized government on the island, the samurai returned home. Is that an "invasion"? LordAmeth 11:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

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Talk:History of Taiwan

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Contents

[edit] Japanese Rule is Good

[edit] NPOV discussion

[edit] "Without regret"?

[edit] Lack of evidence

[edit] The new Taiwanese identity

[edit] editing problem (grammar)

[edit] Vienna Convention of succession of States

[edit] "Japanese invasions"

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