Talk:Historical revisionism (negationism)

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[edit] Intro slightly POV?

Hi. I read the article intro and I found it a little POV. It contains sentences/words which put the topic in a negative light, such as "ignoring essential facts", "to distort", "it allows them to cloak their illegitimate activities". I do not dare to change it since it is such a delicate topic and I am not a native speaker of english, but I'd like if some of you considered what I've said. Bye --87.10.191.186 16:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It is POV by definition, no one calls negationism undistorted and legitimate, see historical revisionism. -- Stbalbach 13:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


Other than the Holocaust is there any/many other areas of historical revisionism? Wikipedia seems to be fixated soley/primarily on Holocaust protection - the Ukranian hoocaust has its small group- there must be others. Are ther cases where what would have been called historical revision(negationism) turned out to have uncovered the truth and became the new orthodoxy? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.105.80.219 (talk • contribs) 14:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


Search and you will find - the Lavon Affair ( went from a denied nonevent to admission after 50 years). A list of other - there must be hundreds - events in history that were uncovered by diligent research that gave a 189% change in the historical record. Many parts of the main concern of the antirevisionists - the holocaust - have been revised, often by believers. An historical event that doesn't change with time and reserch is suspect you would think. If every eyewitness was 100% correct, all the time, then why have "historians".

You obviously do not have a good idea about the way that Historians work. And the Holocaust has never remained unchanged as you seem to allege. New research is always being dug up, in some cases literally. Darkmind1970 13:50, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1984 citation questioned

The mention of the novel "1984" as an example of negationism seems puzzling. I'm not certain if the article refrences the behavior of the fictional governmental entities in the novel or the novel itself as an example. 68.45.143.196 20:20, 5 December 2006 (UTC) Bill 5 December 2006

[edit] truth

The question is - who is denying the truth. The negationism label sounds like a way to brand a historian who is getting too close to your ox. What is the term that describes someone who tries to hide an unpleasant fact from others - I hope it isn't mainstearm or legitimate or accredited.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.105.80.219 (talk • contribs) 16:36, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


denying "essential facts" - how does a fact become "essential". Can an "essential fact" be questioned scientifically? If an "essential fact" is impossible, is it "essential". This article sounds foolish.

[edit] Some Bias

Doesn't the part about Macedonianism seems slightly biased? 141.217.108.100 18:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC) 13/12/06 1:09 PM EST Dan

[edit] Recent Revisionism

What about the President of Iran's comments about the Holocaust? Shouldn't that be mentioned here? I have heard that this is common among education of Muslims in Muslim countries- denial or complete absence of mention among Muslims. [1] poopsix 08:44, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

This article is just illustrative examples, we are trying to keep away from listing controversial or on-going debates. I suppose if you have some neutral source such as an international body or court of law that labeled it as negationism it might be more credible - otherwise we enter into a long debate from two sides if it really is negationism or not - not the purpose of this article. -- Stbalbach 16:05, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


If you delve into what Muslim kids are taught you might open up a bag of worms. What are nonMuslim kids taught, if you get my drift.

[edit] Islamic invasion of India

It's not clear that this section is dealing with out-right negationism, or just normal controversy surrounding historical events. Is there an objective independent source that calls what is happening negationism in order to verify? -- Stbalbach 14:38, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Some have alleged this (see Negationism in India - Concealing the Record of Islam). Obviously, there are political issues that go both ways so nobody is "objective" here, but ...Rumpelstiltskin223 15:30, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah it gets complex when it's not clearly negationism but just one side claiming negationism. This article is not a "List of negationism", but rather the theory of negationism with "Examples of negationism" -- so we have stuck with the clear and illustrative cases, and tried to avoid the controversial and on-going ones. The source provided is probably not a neutral one - is there some sort of international body, a judge or court that has commented on it? -- Stbalbach 15:51, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
This does not seem to be the case for Macedonism either. No international body etc there either.Do you want the whole India section deleted or reworded somehow? Rumpelstiltskin223 15:56, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

So there is a dispute about this issue. There are lots of disputes about lots of controversial historical events, but to be a case of historical revisionism (nagationism) someone needs to be falsifying the facts and distorting history. In this example it is not clear to me who is meant to be the negationist. Can someone please explain this to me so that the example can be clarified? If not then it should be deleted. --Philip Baird Shearer 10:06, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Given the above I have moved the section to the talk page until someone clarifies it:

>===Islamic invasion of India===

Some historians in India deny the atrocities committed by the invading Islamic armies during the Muslim conquest in the Indian subcontinent in order to promote an image of historical "Hindu-Muslim communal amity". Authors like M.N. Roy have written that Islam had fulfilled a historic mission of equality and abolition of discrimination, and that for this, Islam had been welcomed into India by the lower castes. If at all any violence had occurred, it was as a matter of justified class struggle by the progressive forces against the reactionary forces, meaning the feudal Hindu upper castes[1] (this despite the fact that converts to Islam were subjected to the Caste system among South Asian Muslims).Considerable controversy exists both in scholarly and public opinion about the conversions to Islam typically represented by the following schools of thought:[2]

  1. That Muslims sought conversion through jihad or political violence [2]
  2. A related view is that conversions occurred for pragmatic reasons such as social mobility among the Muslim ruling elite [2]
  3. Conversion was a result of the actions of Sufi saints and involved a genuine change of heart [2]
  4. Conversion from Buddhists and the lower castes for social mobility and a rejection of oppressive caste strictures [citation needed]
  5. Was a combination, initially made under duress followed by a genuine change of heart [2]

Embedded within this lies the concept of Islam as a foreign imposition and Hinduism being a natural condition of the natives who resisted, resulting the failure of the project to Islamicize the Indian subcontinent and is highly embroiled with the politics of the partition and communalism in India.[2] Other reasons given for the size of the Muslim expansion are the genocide of Hindu's[citation needed], migrations and the influence of Arab traders along the Indian Ocean.[citation needed]

An estimate of the number of people killed, based on the Muslim chronicles and demographic calculations, was done by K.S. Lal in his book Growth of Muslim Population in Medieval India, who claimed that between 1000 CE and 1500 CE, the population of Hindus decreased by 80 million. His work has come under criticism by historians such as Simon Digby (School of Oriental and African Studies) and Marxist figure Irfan Habib for its "agenda" and lack of accurate data in pre-census times. Lal has responded to these criticisms in later works. Historians such as Will Durant contend that Islam spread through violence. [3][4] Sir Jadunath Sarkar contended that that several Muslim invaders were waging a systematic jihad against Hindus in India to the effect that "Every device short of massacre in cold blood was resorted to in order to convert heathen subjects." [5] In particular the records kept by al-Utbi, Mahmud al-Ghazni's secretary, in the Tarikh-i-Yamini document several episodes of bloody military campaigns. Hindus who converted to Islam however were not completely immune to persecution due to the Muslim Caste System in India established by Ziauddin al-Barani in the Fatawa-i Jahandari. [6], where they were regarded as an "Ajlaf" caste and subjected to discrimination by the "Ashraf" castes[7]. None of this is discussed in modern Indian historical scholarship. The allegation is that Marxist historiographers are propounding a biased and revisionist version of history that whitewashes the persecution of Hindus under Islamic rule, part of a rising trend of negationism in India in trying to justify the rise of Islamic Fundamentalism and their alliance with the far left[8][9][10].

--Philip Baird Shearer 10:12, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yugoslavia & Macedonia examples

The article presently includes Serbia and the Yugoslav Wars and Macedonism as examples of historical revisionism.

  1. I believe that both are poor examples of historical revisionism. Serbia and the Yugoslav Wars is more an example of war-time propaganda rather than a revision of previously accepted historical facts.
  2. If one wanted to include an example from the former YU it would, for example, seem just as appropriate to mention Croatian or Bosniak historical revisionism as part of the nation-forming process for both these countries.

Because of its sinister connotations with Holocaust denial, the "revisionism" is a quite popular label to attempt to taint political opponent. Allowing these two isolated examples, by no means widely accepted as examples of "historical revisionism" while ignoring other which are better suited as examples of historical revisionism, this article is being used for political purposes. I suggest that these two examples be removed or extensively altered. Cheers Osli73 14:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

As far as Serbia/Yugoslavia is concerned, it's past war-time propaganda since the Bosnian war ended 12 years ago. All the sources quoted here are up-to-date web pages which means this view is still very active. So it is revisionism by every account. Even the present Serbian government still refuses to admit most war crimes were in fact committed (Srebrenica anniversary ignored in Serbia, for example). So it's a good example as any. Feel free to edit if you have sources and think you could do it more neutral.The Spanish Inquisitor 15:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


A couple of comments on your reasoning here:

  • Both of these are examples of original research. You are using various material/sources to make your own analysis and draw your own conclusions. Wikipedia is not original thought.
  • The sources you have provided are either in Serbian/Croatian (and therefore not very good sources) or in English but not on the subject of revisionism. In fact, none of the sources you cite mention revisionism.
  • If you could find a number of credible sources (which in this case would be respected media or research) citing 'Macedonism' and 'Serbia' as examples of historical revisionism, that would be a different matter.

Cheers Osli73 19:06, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


The Spanish Inquisitor, You might want to take a look at this on drawing conclusions from published material[2] on the Wikipedia:No original research. It says that:
Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research.[2] "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article.
Take a look at it and tell me how it fits with the two sections we're discussing here. Regards Osli73 19:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


I do not see it as 'original research' as it simply translates:
a) That there exists a revisionist attitute in Serbia (as evident by provided links talking about "anti-Serb conspiracies")
b) That such revisionists fail to acknowledge committed crimes as genocide (as seen by links that say so)
c) That this attitute is widespread in Serbia (as evident, for example, by glancing at the Serb Wikipedia article on the Bosnian, Kosovo or Croatian war).
This is hard to dismiss as pro- or con-Serb propaganda as not a single Serbian government ever appologized for any of the crimes committed - so that's politically serious (not to mention the single most popular political party there is the one assosiated with the worst war's paramilitary units). There are also a lot of other (non-local) sources which talk about strength of propaganda in Serbia (for example books by Cohen), which I will source when I get the chance. I still won't enter the Macedonian example as I do not have the knowledge on the subject to make an assestment, it just seems to me it is not a proper case of revisionism, unlike the Serbian example.The Spanish Inquisitor 13:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


The Spanish Inquisitor, I'll reiterate my comments above for clarity:

  1. no doubt, the websites you refer to as 'sources' are nationalist websites, however
  2. you are using these sources to draw your own conclusions which is not in line with Wikipedia:No original research.
  3. none of the 'sources' you list mention historical revisionism in Serbia

Do you agree that we take out these examples? Otherwise, the only possible next step as I see it is to take this to an administrators notice board for comments. Regards Osli73 13:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The named sources did not call it that, they were an example of historical revisionism. I added a new link naming it as such. I could find more sources if needs be, but this Princeton article names a few.The Spanish Inquisitor 14:07, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi, this is much better! A couple of comments though:

  1. he talks specifically about Kosovo, not Bosnia or other 'Yugoslav wars'. So, it would only be an example of revisionism regarding Nato's casus belli for Kosovo
  2. nowhere does he imply that this revisionism is taking place in Serbia (in fact, I get the feeling that he is adressing those who say that Kosovo has become a mess after Nato intervention). So, based on this source it would be wrong to infer that this is a case of Serbian revisionism.
  3. as a representative of Nato he is clearly partisan in the issue, so, it would be "alleged revisionism" if we were to use it
  4. if we are to use this source we would need to change the two replace the two current examples with an example of Revisionism regarding the justification for Nato's attack on Serbia in 1999 or something to that effect
  5. the other 'sources' which have been cited would have to be removed as they would have nothing to do with historical revisionism (plus, they're not in English).

All the best Osli73 15:19, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Concerning Robertson's speech, I agree, he isn't the happiest of sources, so I'll try to find better ones, he just uses the exact phrase, which is why I found it significant, it's just unfortunate (but politically correct concering recent trends) to avoid the word 'Serb'. Like I said, the section could use some extensive rewording, but qualifies to stay. I'll look up more sources and add them as I find them (have to research some more material).
I'm still undecided about Macedonia - I was for deletion, but the first new link analyses that problem too - and more neutrally then this section - but it's still not a classical case of revisionism, which is typically more associated with war and crimes due to Holocaust, so I say remove.The Spanish Inquisitor 15:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I agree that Balkan nationalism includes a lot of historical revisionism (as, in fact, does almost all nationalism). However, if we are going to use this as an example, it should be based on some reputable sources claiming it as such. We should not be the ones citing various examples of nationalist historical propaganda and then calling this historical revisionism. Since this is a popular word to sling at opponents, we have to watch out for 'sources' where the term is used in a polemic way by non-experts. Eg just because a Serbian nationalists/commentator calls Bosniak history 'revisionism' doesn't necessarily make it so. In the meantime, I believe we should remove these two examples until we can replace them with a reworked example. Regards Osli73 16:09, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


A very current example of the use of the term historical revisionism would be the ongoing spat between Italy and Croatia regarding events at the end of WWII. Here is commentary by the BBC. Cheers Osli73 16:51, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I would tend to agree with what Osli73 is saying. An example in these archives of this talk page is the difference between Joseph Goebbels's war time propaganda including the inflating the deaths reported by the police by a factor of ten, and the use of those numbers by people like David Irving (even after he had acknowledged that they were not accurate) which is historical revisionism. The list here is meant to be examples that clearly illustrate the illegitimate use of historical revisionism. If the examples are not clear on the difference between propaganda and historical revisionism (negationism), then I do not think that they should be included in this article, because any example which is not clear does not illuminate the issue for readers fresh to the topic.
Spats between historians are usual, to be historical revisionism (of either type) then the position being advanced needs to be sufficiently radical that the current view of that historical event would need to be radically revised to accomidate the new explanation. The argument over Irving and Dresden was not so much that 25K or 135K causes a paradigm shift in the historical view on the Allied stratigic bombing campaign, but that it was part of his covert attempt at Holocust denial, or at least to present a postiont that there was a parity in the moral behaviour of the Axis and Allied leadership, which is a clear case of historical revisionism (negationism). --Philip Baird Shearer 17:41, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


I agree, the Serbia & Yugoslav Wars and Macedonism aren't very good examples of historical revisionism and should be taken out. The other ones in there are less controversial and could stay. Regards Osli73 18:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Following the above discussion I have acted to remove the two examples in qustion. Regards Osli73 10:39, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Crypto-revisionism" doesn't seem like a well established term

Googling for "Crypto-revisionism" (excluding Wikipedia and mirror sites like answers.com) I get only 58 hits.[3] That seems kind of low for it to be considered an established term and for us to know enough about it to include it in the article. If we can't find any good sources describing what it is we should take it out. Regards Osli73 10:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

It's a pejorative neologism - there are many neologism's on Wikipedia. Nothing wrong with mentioning that it exists. As for what it means exactly, as with all neologism's, it can mean different things depending on who uses it and in what context. Here is one example from a printed source. -- Stbalbach 16:48, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese attempts to rewrite Korean History

Regarding this section, recently added and moved here:

===Chinese attempts to rewrite Korean History=== Starting from the 1980's, the People's Republic of China began to re-identify Goguryeo, especially the first half of Goguryeo's history before it moved its capital to the Korean peninsula, as a part of the regional history of China rather than of Korea. More recently, this effort has been called the [[c|Northeast Project]]. The rationales deployed are simply illogical given that: 1) Goguryeo defeated the [[Sui_Dynasty|Sui]] and [[Tang_Dynasty|Tang]] Dynasties of China several times before finally being destroyed by a Tang and Silla alliance.* 2) Additionally, this claim made by the Chinese government's[[Northeast_Project_of_the_Chinese_Academy_of_Social_Science|Northeast Project]] is impossible given that the claim following the fall of Goguryeo only a few hundred thousand of its estimated 4 million inhabitants were taken into captivity by China and not the whole population. The Goguryeo state continued with Balhae, which considered itself as the successor of Goguryeo; when Balhae was destroyed, its population dissipated into the Korean dynasty of Goryeo. Hence, Silla was not the sole source of the modern Korean nation.* 3) The claim that only the present South Korean Jeolla and Kyongsang regions were descendants of Samhan, where is south of Geum River. There are more Koreans descended from inhabitants from outside Samhan and Silla, i.e., north of Geum River. North Koreans are descendants of Goguryeo, and North Korean shares the same languange and culture with the South Koreans. *[http://www.koreaaward.com/korea/GeographyPeople_PeoplePopulation.htm/ Ministry of Culture and Tourism Republic of Korea]

This has no reliable and verifiable sources to back it up as being historical revisionism. It also reads like original research. The examples used in this article are supposed to be well know, un-ambiguous, and clearly backed up by the best possible sources. Who called this thing in Korea "historical revisionism"? Was it an international body? Or was it someone who disagrees with Chinese policy and wants to label it as historical revisionism? Who are these critics who are calling it historical revisionism? Are there people who disagree with these critics? -- Stbalbach 18:22, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

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