Talk:High protein diet

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I don't think telling people vague and quite frankly dangerous things about protein requirements is a great idea. From what the article says, you could have someone eating 500g of protein a day, ten times more than what they need. Excess protein intake can lead to calcium deficiency and kidney damage, and does not help build muscle faster, excess amino acids are excreted, not stored or used. You only need a comparatively small amount of additional protein to repair muscle damage from weight training. 5g extra over your normal 50g average is all it takes, unless you are somehow gaining several pounds of muscle mass per day, in which case you might want to see a doctor. The majority of the bulk of muscles is water, proteins are a very small proportion. 69.197.92.181 12:24, 4 Mar 2005

Nobody's advocating 500g intake. And the studies showing kidney problems found it only in people with previous kidney disease. Also, there is scientific evidence that higher protein intakes do improve anabolism, but there is a diminishing return over 1.5 g/lb/day. Blair P. Houghton 20:12, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think the relevant phrase is "are commonly advised." The article itself does not take a position on the subject, but attempts to honestly report the recommendations given by other sources (as per the reference). Opinions vary widely, which is why the stated range is so broad. (I reverted one editor who wanted to change the minimum intake from 0.8 to 1.2 g/lb.) That said, there remain some who believe as 69.197.92.181 does, so this opinion should be briefly mentioned to maintain a NPOV. GeorgeStepanek\^talk 21:21, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I am the reverted 'one editor'. I included a reference this time (should've done last time, sorry!). Btw 500g a day: 120kg (not untypical for a large weight-trainer)x4.4g=538g/day Dan100 16:04, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)

Ok, you guys should really read over the biochem stuff here on the wikipedia, and get an understanding of what protein is and what we use it for. The US RDA for protein for a male age 25-50 is 63g. That means 97.5% of males 25-50 need 63g or less. This is aiming high to make sure the vast majority of people are covered. Recommending that people eat 2g of protein per pound is insane, the average requirement is .6g per KG, 4.4 per KG is simply dangerous, and of no benefit. Taking that 2g per pound recommendation, I would be eating 420g of protein per day. However I only actually use about 70g per day in my current training (based on urine tests). That extra protein would be creating alot of acid in my blood, which has to be neutralized with calcium, which can cause weakening of my bones. All the extra amino acids floating around can be broken down further into sugar and used as fuel, or if I already get enough calories from sugars and fats, my kidneys will just filter them out, and you can guess where they go after that. There is simply nobody out there who needs ~450g of protein per day. Think about it, that's a pound. Muscle is only a small percentage by weight protein, so if you needed a pound of protein, you would have to be gaining several pounds of muscle mass every day.

Having more protein will not make your muscles grow faster. Your muscle growth is based on how much you damage them, and how much your body repairs them. If your body is only repairing your damaged muscle tissue (from weight training) at a rate consuming 15g of additional protein per day, then another 400g of protein will not do anything for you, its only having less than the needed 15g that will hold you back. This is not a POV issue, it is a factual error, and one that could lead to serious health problems if people follow it. 69.197.92.181 17:44, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Guess I should have looked at the article again before all posting this, somebody changed it to a much more sane 0.6g to 0.8g. Would it also be worth mentioning that if you are overweight, and say have 30 or 40 pounds of fat on you, that shouldn't really count towards your calculations for protein intake? 69.197.92.181 17:53, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your added reference, Dan100. Yes, 0.6 g/kg/day is recommended by some authors, so I have amended the range to show this. I have also adjusted the figures to better reflect the reference that I supplied, which discusses protein intake up to 1.4 or 1.5 g/kg/day. But gentlemen, please do not include original research. No matter what your arguments are, whether they are justified or not, the article should reflect only that which is supported by the provided references. There is no factual error in saying that "weight trainers are commonly advised to consume 0.6–1.5g of protein per pound of bodyweight per day." The supplied references show that this is true. GeorgeStepanek\^talk 19:18, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ok, but if you are doing to say weight trainers are commonly advised to do X, you should also mention they are commonly advised not to as well. There's dozens of rediculous myths about weight training, that doesn't mean we should put them all in the article with the presumption that they are true, even though we can certainly find websites that claim they are. Its definately a POV problem if you try to hide behind "some people recommend" without also mentioning that "some people recommend otherwise". I haven't done anything to the article yet, I just came here to discuss it and see what everyone thinks. Should I add in references for the "don't eat too much protein" side to balance it out? Are we going to have the same problem with every other thing that some people feel helps, and other people feel doesn't? Do you feel its going too far to point out that the people recommended over-consumption of protein tend to have little to no qualifications (some guy with muscles), and the people recommending not to tend to be doctors and nutritional scientists? 69.197.92.181 20:26, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, a description of the opposing POV would be very helpful here. I have made a stab at this, but feel free to make it more accurate and to add a suitable reference. (But please don't make it too wordy!) Note that one might also say that doctors and nutritional scientists rarely have much practical experience of weight training, whereas the bodybuilding community has a wealth of experience! But seriously, there are a variety of scientific studies that show benefits from quite a wide range of levels of protein intake. It would be misleading to only show one side of this debate. I tried to address this by giving a very wide range of values, but I think that some pro and anti comments would be helpful also. GeorgeStepanek\^talk 20:55, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The reason I am only discussing right now, and not changing stuff, is that this section could get very long for something that's only marginally related to the main topic if we put in all sorts of pro and con stuff for the various issues. Like if I were to change things right now, I would add a bit about taking a calcium suppliment if you are dramatically increasing your protein intake, since more protein means more wasted calcium neutralizing acids in your blood, and less calicium being available for your bones. I would have to point out that the studies showing "no kidney damage" are seriously flawed, as its obvious that kidney damage results from working your kidneys harder, but that it takes years to cause problems. You could pretend alcoholism doesn't cause kidney damage too if you only do a short term study and ignore life-long effects. Then I'd have to throw in the studies that show massive protein intake does cause kidney damage, and then someone else would have to point out how those studies are also flawed because they assume animals and humans will have the same results. And I'd probably change the wording so it doesn't sound like the inflated protein recommendations are "adequate protein", and clarify that the recommendations are in fact to consume significantly more than what is "adequate". This makes for a pretty long section, which is chock full of POV, and low on facts. Is that worth having in the article? Leaving a long winded back and forth about protein in there also leaves the article wide open for long winded back and forth exchanges about all kinds of rituals, superstitions and such that various people who lift weights use or believe in. Do we need a big discussion about wether or not raw eggs give you magical muscle building powers too? How about tying your left shoe with a double knot? At what point do we draw the line? 69.197.92.181 22:09, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your very thoughtful and considerate attitute. Yes, this section could be greatly expanded—far beyond what is required for this article. But it is an extremely important issue. I have therefore created a new high protein diet article for an in-depth discussion of the issues around protein intake. At the moment it's just a copy of the relevant paragraph, but we could certainly merge all of your (very valid) points.

By the way, it would be nice if you created a login: an IP address doesn't really convey much in the way of personality or identity. Especially as we seem to be entering a bit of a conversation now. I really would like to work with you to create a good, balanced article on the pros and cons of a high protein diet. GeorgeStepanek\^talk 22:41, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)