Talk:Heysel Stadium disaster

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Archives
April 2006 – March 2007

[edit] Cause of deaths?

I've seen a few edits now that state that the main cause of death was suffocation from being trampled on. I have reverted the edit in question as it was not sourced, and neither have I ever read this from a reputable website. Could someone please point me to the relevent source, if indeed there is one? Cheers, aLii 23:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2005 Juventus vs. Liverpool tie

I still don't understand why mention of match details is particularly relevant to the Heysel Stadium disaster? Sure mention the final score, but goal-scorers, and bad refereeing decisions seem to be taking it a bit too far.

• Friendship gestures and how they were received by Juventus fans is relevant.
• Crowd violence is relevant, as this is an article about crowd violence.
• The score is relevant, seeing as the match is mentioned.

Could you please explain why "although there was controversy since Juventus were disallowed a legit goal" is relevant? I can't even remember that a goal was disallowed. All I remember of the tie was that Liverpool won deservedly, and that Juventus were surprisingly poor in the match in Turin — neither of which are mentioned, and rightly so. aLii 19:37, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

you can read the link I supplied (Guardian transcript). Del Piero scored a perfectly legitimate header and the goal was disallowed. This is a fact that happened (not a question of memory I believe). The small relevance is because this goal was crucial for the final result. The BIG relevance is because controversy is mentioned about the original match in Heysel. What's the relevance that the penalty was supposedly undeserved to the disaster ? None. None of the riots happened because of the result... the riots were before the match , and there doesn't seem to be any relevance between the disaster and the alleged controversy in the heysel match. So as I see it, to remain WP:NPOV here, there are two choices. Either remove the criticizm over the penalty in heysel, or include this controversy as well - it shows that Juventus did not earn unjustly and that Livperpool eventually gained from a bad referre decision as well, all this in context of Juve Liverpool relations (there might have been hostile feelings over both results because of the bad referrering, and this might affect the future too) . Amoruso 21:12, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I've taken out the two NPOV bits, which I found distasteful as well as unencyclopedic. --Guinnog 21:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, removing both is probably the correct thing to do. I can't say I wrote that bit, and I've never seen the 1985 game, so can't comment, but like Guinnog implies; Who cares about the (1985) match? It can be written up in a match article if someone does. aLii 00:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Historiography

The standard historiography is that it was Juventus fans who caused Liverpool fans to surge towards the Juventus congregation. Juve started the throwing material from the stadium, rubble, terrace poles, etc.

Liverpool fans moving towards Juve fans caused pressure on an aging wall, this wall collapsed, as the pressure of the Juve fans against it.

The article needs a great deal of attention as it is heavily biased, and flies in the face of the standard historiography. Londo06 05:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The article is pretty well sourced, can you provide some sources to back your version of events? May I also point out that most Italians that visit this article this that this version is biased towards Liverpool. aLii 14:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I feel the article does not go deeply enough into the accepted version of events, being the cyclical series of events, Juve - Liverpool - Juve. That is accepted, and proved by television footage. Alexsanderson83 09:18, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I didn't watch the match on TV, and have seen no (good) sources that claim to know such a definitive version of what happened, and who started what. I've read that Liverpool fans started the disruptions. I've also read that Juve fans started it. I've seen no definitive proof either way, hence the vagueness of the article. If someone can find such proof, then it can be added to the article. aLii 10:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Accepted version is that Juve fans instigated the problems, Liverpool fans fought back, and were forced back, this pushed the Liverpool fans towards another section of Juve fans. The end result a wall collapsing on Juve fans. Juve fans dead, meant that the initial UEFA stance was one sided. This is the view of academics and authorities alike. No group of fans blameless, but Juve fans, be the extreme elements or not, did start the problems. Liverpool fans reacted, no doubt. But the accepted academic viewpoint is that Juventus fans were more at fault than the Liverpool fans, the deciding factor was that Juve fans died. Londo06 11:20, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, lets go through the various sources already cited on the page;

• The Times: Our day of shame: A Liverpool fan recalls how events spiralled out of control

  "on the terraces there was an exchange of missiles"

• LiverpoolFC.tv - Liverpool FC official website

  "both sets of fans baited each other through a segregating fence made from chicken wire. After a sustained period of missiles raining down on the Reds end, some Liverpool fans charged at their Italian counterparts and as chaos took over"

• The Times: Night of mayhem in Brussels that will never be forgotten

  "Italians in that section pelted the Liverpool supporters with missiles. In response, the English charged at them and breached the fence."

• The Guardian: Liverpool still torn over night that shamed their name

  "Many accounts, including the club's version on its website, cite missile throwing by Italian fans as the spark for violence, a claim contested by other eye-witnesses, but the broad facts are uncontested."

• The Guardian: Lost lives that saved a sport

  "As the kick-off drew nearer, Liverpool fans began to shower the 'Italian' fans with beer cans, stones, with whatever came to hand. When the 'Italians' responded in kind, the enraged Liverpool fans stormed the no mans' land and the fencing and found, to their surprise, they had free rein."

• The Guardian: The Witnesses

  Otello Lorentini (Juve fan): "I was relaxing, reading a newspaper, when I saw a single English hooligan. He jumped over a small fence and came charging towards us. Then, many more followed. They had lumps of terrace concrete, Coke bottles, beer bottles, rocks and even knifes. Everyone panicked."

  Simone Stenti (Juve fan): "When the Liverpool players came out to greet their fans before the game, I could not believe what I saw. A rocket was fired into our sector and two Liverpool players applauded. I thought they were appreciating the fans’ enthusiasm. But, then a second rocket was fired at us and the same two players clapped. I have my father to thank for my life. When the first Liverpool supporter charged into the sector, my father said: ‘Let’s go.’ I did not want to, because this was the European Cup final. I said: ‘Don’t worry, the police will arrive and it will be fine.’

  Giancarlo Galavotti (Italian journalist): "The riot police were outside the stadium, those inside the sector ran once the Liverpool fans started to attack them, and at one point those on the pitch actually prevented people from escaping over the fencing."

  Bill Sergeant (Detective Chief Inspector, Merseyside police): "There have been suggestions that the trouble was initiated by a single fan, but I am rather sceptical of that." "In my opinion, the tragedy resulted from a drink-fuelled aggressive response by Liverpool ‘fans’ to what they felt was unacceptable behaviour by Juventus supporters. They did not believe the Belgian police were protecting them."

So, we can safely say that some English say that the Juve fans started it, but some don't, and also that the Italians say that the Liverpool fans started it. aLii 14:14, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

As you can see there is not good justification for stating that the trouble was started by Juventus fans. You should both read through Wikipedia:Attribution. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a publisher of original thought. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether it is true. Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. In general, the most reliable sources are books and journals published by universities, mainstream newspapers, and magazines and journals that are published by known publishing houses. Hope this helps you to understand where I'm coming from, aLii 14:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)