Talk:Hesse-Kassel
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Augustus Alt Posting (from Australia)
The first Surveyor-General of New South Wales, Herman Theodore Augustus Alt, accompanied Captain/Governor Arthur Philip on the First Fleet to settle New South Wales (Australia), leaving London in 1787. Augustus's father, Jost Heinrich (later anglicized to Just Henry), was born in 1698 in Kassel, Germany, and was confirmed in 1712 according to the Altstadter Parish register. His father, Augustus's grandfather, was Gerhard Alt who 'had special qualifications in writing and arithmetic' and was described in 1713 as a 'Writer in the Government Service' in Kassel, and in 1733 held the position of Archivist. Jost Heinrich followed his father's footsteps and entered the service of the Landgrave of Hesse Kassel in 1720 and was appointed Writer to Major-General von Diemar, Hessian Envoy Extraordinary in Sweden. Accompanying von Diemar to London, he became Registrar of the Legation in 1725, Secretary in 1727 on von Diemar's recommendation at which time he assumed responsibility for all drafting, ciphering and deciphering of correspondence, Private Secretary in 1734, Counsellor of the Legation in 1740, Minister for Hesse in 1741 and in 1760 he was made Privy Counsellor. He died on 9 November, 1768 and his will and administration is to be found in the archives of the Prerogative Court of Canterbury (U.K.) attested on 14 December, 1768 by 'H.T. Augustus Alt' and 'C. Murhard'. The title `Baron' assumed by Augustus in later years was initially attached to Jost Heinrich according to family tradition although according to the Hessian archives, he never became a Baron of the Landgravate and was not given the title in any nominal or honorary sense that can be traced, titles of nobility being conferred by the Emperor and not the Landgrave. It appears to have been a nickname emanating from within the diplomatic corps which slowly assumed formal status. If anyone can add to or clarify this material, it would greatly assist me. Thank you. Dr Paul-Alan Johnson, Visiting Fellow, UNSW. 25 June 2005
There's no mention abbout count Karl who lived in Hessel-Kassel during 1717!
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was no consensus. —Nightstallion (?) 09:58, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Requested move
Hesse-Kassel → Hesse-Cassel – Historical German states are usually referred to by their English names, but this article title is a combination of English (Hesse) and German (Kassel). Although the city itself is usually referred to as Kassel in English now, the state is referred to as Hesse-Cassel. Olessi 21:08, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
- Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
- Support, as nominator. Olessi 19:03, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
- Support, as I also wanted a movement of Brunswick-Lüneburg to Brunswick-Lunenburg for sake of consistency. Charles 19:26, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose - Consistency is not the issue, usage is (see below for discussion of usage). john k 21:45, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
- Support Usage seems to me Cassel, not Kassel. Septentrionalis 00:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
- Neutral. I'm not sure that Cassel is a true exonym. It's an archaic German form but a move can't hurt too much since it sure looks more English. There's a much better case for Brunswick-Lunenburg since Lunenburg is a legit exonym. AjaxSmack 02:09, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose. Most users look for items under the modern/current spelling and do not know that here was an older spelling centuries ago. In Germany today, one speaks of Hessen-Kassel (not Hessen-Cassel). And nobody would be loking anywhere today for the city of Cassel in any encyclopaedia. The old spelling can be added in parentheses.Cosal 04:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Discussion
Here are Google Books ([1], [2]) and Google Scholar ([3], [4]) results. Olessi 19:03, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Notice that, in the Google Scholar search, the Journal of Modern History, the leading journal of European history, uses "Hesse-Kassel". So, among my books, do John Merriman's A History of Modern Europe, a standard textbook; James Sheehan's German History 1770-1866, the standard English-language work on that period of German history; McKay and Scott's The Rise of the Great Powers 1648-1815, a standard work on early modern diplomatic history; and various others. That is also the name used by Encyclopedia Britannica and the Columbia Encyclopedia. It is also essentially true that while the translated name "Hesse" remains in general use in English for the region, the anglicized "Cassel" is very rarely used, and the city is normally called "Kassel." It is not wikipedia's job to create uniformity when the usage itself is not uniform. And the standard usage at the beginning of the 21st century is, indeed, "Hesse-Kassel," and not either "Hesse-Cassel" or "Hessen-Kassel." john k 21:45, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Also: looking at JSTOR searches, the American Historical Review (the main American historical journal), as well as the Sixteenth Century Journal and the German Studies Review use "Hesse-Kassel", all in recent articles. The only title match for "Hesse-Cassel" is from the Journal of Economic History. Also note that many of the results for "Hesse-Cassel" in the Google Scholar search come from older sources - one is from 1912. john k 21:53, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with current usage in English being more important than using traditional English names, which is why I am opposed to a move from Lüneburg to Lunenburg. While the Google Scholar search is even, I was influenced by the Google Books hit discrepancy. However, as always, I do trust John's input, and would be willing to withdraw the move request based upon his advice. Olessi 22:00, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure of what the Google Books notice means. I will say that "Hesse-Cassel" does seem to have been more common in the past, so it's at least possible that old books are influencing the numbers. john k 22:35, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
A note: In German, Kassel was spelled "Cassel" until 1926 [5] -- this would explain the older results. --Chl 03:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Huh, interesting, didn't realize that. 1911 Britannica gives "Hesse-Cassel," BTW. john k 04:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
