Talk:Herbert Kitchener, 1st Earl Kitchener

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[edit] Poster

Would it be fair to say Kitchener is now best-known for the "kitchener poster"? Certainly needs mentioning here.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/ARTleete.htm

I've added a picture of Leete's poster to the article and expanded the mention - Valisk

[edit] Name and title

"Horatio Kitchener, 1st Earl Kitchener of Khartoum" is a ridiculous name for the article. Articles are supposed to be "most common unambiguous" and this ain't it. It makes sense to add titles to disambiguate multiple lords of the same name, but how famous Horatio Kitcheners are there?? Stan 01:27, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Hmm? How many famous "Edward Seymours" are there? There's only one article about any, and it redirects to Edward Seymour, 1st Duke of Somerset. More apropos, how many famous "Edward Geoffrey Smith Stanley's" are there? Only one, I'd wager, but yet we still include "14th Earl of Derby". I'd also refer you to here, where it states,

1. Members of the hereditary nobility (ie, people who inherit their title), such as a marquess, viscount, count, duke. earl, etc., as with royals have two names. For example Henry John Temple was also the 3rd Viscount Palmerston, hence typically referred to as "Lord Palmerston". Rule here is, "So-and-so, ordinal (if appropriate) title of place", and place redirects as you see fit. The sequence number is included since personal names are often duplicated (see Earl of Aberdeen.) Examples: Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington, or Henry John Temple, 3rd Viscount Palmerston, with redirect Lord Palmerston, which allows both of his names to be included.

Kitchener is well known as "Earl Kitchener of Khartoum", and I see no reason why he should not be stated by his title. I tend towards the view that, when in doubt, one should use the full title, which is always unambiguous and unique. In this case, yes, it's probably not completely necessary for unambiguousness purposes. But it is more accurate, and I don't feel like Kitchener's so much better known as merely "Horatio Kitchener" as to make the full title harmful. (As it would be, for instance, if we had an article like Arthur James Balfour, 1st Earl of Balfour, or whatever.) john 01:45, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

OK, I thought he had a life peerage (found ref to hereditary on the net, not in the article, ahem). That's a lot of redirects to fix though, glad I didn't sign up for that... Stan 04:13, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Goddamned redirects...there were no life peerages until 1958, and life peerages are all baronies, though. john 04:31, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

It's fun isn't it, the Peerage systems and all it's foibles. It's the main reason why I left altering all that stuff from the original article to someone who understood the vagaries better than I, and also I cannot change redirects :)

As far as I am aware Kitchener was best known simply as K of K, and he was contempraneously refered to as Lord Kitchener by newspapers, writers etc. Though today he is not so well known that refering to him in this way would not distinguish him from his decended heirs.

In most period correspondence refering to him, he is known simply as K, though I suspect K of K or simply K would not today be enough to distinguish Kitchener from any other famous individual.

Valisk 12:36, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Sexuality

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I have removed the Hyam quote because it is highly selective in it's quotes rather liek the full book, and suggestive of paedophillia.

>:"Kitchener was a man whose sexual instincts were wholly sublimated in work; he admitted few distractions and 'thereby reaped an incalculable advantage in competition with his fellows.' >There is no evidence that he ever loved a woman;

There is a fair bit of evidence he did, including his relationship with Hermione Baker. Both his and her relatives kept correspondence suggesting that they had more than a friendship, as well as anecdotal evidence by friends of hers that he had asked permission to marry her. There is also the point that Kitchener kept a locket containing her hair and wore it constantly, until just before his trip to Russia in 1916, when for some reason he sent the locket to her family for safe keeping.

>his male friendships were few but fervent; from 1907 until his death his constant and inseparable companion was Capt. O.A.G. FitzGerald who devoted his entire life to Kitchener. He had no use for married men on his staff.

Nor did many other Generals of the time, it was almost a prerequisite of high service in the Victorian British Army. Nevertheless Kitchener maintained strong friendships with the former members of his staff who married, particularly Frank Maxwell, his former ADC, and became godfather to a large number of children.

>Only young officers were admitted to his house - 'my happy family of boys' he called them;

Young being on average late 20s, hardly 'boys.'

>he avoided interviews with women,

Though enjoyed friendships with a great number of women in India, Egypt and England, and particularly enjoyed parties and dancing, until an accident in India permanently injured his leg. He also enjoyed a friendship with Lady Helen Vane-Tempest-Stewart, daughter of the Marquess of Londonderry, which terminated with her turning down his proposal of marriage in favour of Lord Stavordale.

>worshipped Gordon,

Given that Kitchener was a junior officer when he met the celebrated Gordon, already a hero figure at this point around the British Empire, and Gordon treated Kitchener well, taking him under his wing, it is hardly suprising that K held him in high esteem.

>cultivated great interest in the Boy Scout movement, took a fancy to Botha's son and the sons of Lord Desborough,

Assertions with quite a nasty slant.

>and embellished his rose garden with four pairs of sculptured bronze boys."

The vast majority of Hyam's assertions against Kitchener, and others are agenda riven, and do not present a neutral view, but rather an attack on Imperialism by attempting to undercut the Victorian moral justifications used to prop up the imperial edifices, and of course those who like Kitchener and Gordon represented the Imperial ideal in the eyes of the people.

I am quite open to the idea that he may have been gay, but I would like to see some actual evidence of such rather that tired sly slurs of the kind that suggest he must of been gay because he collected porcelain, or gold salt cellars, or enjoyed arranging flowers.

My brother and a number of my friends are gay, and I am quite certain that they would laugh at the idea that any particular interest makes a person gay, yet this is what the whole tone of this excerpt would suggest and it links homosexuality with implied paedophilia, and Hyam's book itself ignores the social mores and pressures of the time period in which Kitchener lived and died.

Valisk 13:55, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

From The Pink Plaque Guide to London, Michael Elliman and Frederick Roll, Gay Men's Press, 1986, ISBN 0-85449-026-4. p118:

Later in life, however, he gathered about him a small group of younger men who were known as "Kitchener's Band of Boys" and agter he became a general his staff were given the same name. Kitchener himself called them "a happy family of boys". Queen Victoria commented, "They say he dislikes women but I can only say he was very nice to me." He made it an absolute rule that his officers were single men, and he took great care in personnally interviewing all candidates for positions on his staff. Thus he managed to bring under his command a closely knit group of unusually young colonels totally dedicated to their leader.
Kitchener's preference for attractive young men on his staff caused a great deal of comment and speculation. A Reuter correspondent declared, "He drinks and has the other failing acquired by most Egyptian Officers, a taste for buggery."
In 1904 Kitchener met Captain Oswald Fitzgerald (1875-1916) of the 18th Bengal Lancers who became his aide-de-camp and later his military secretary. A mutual friend observed, "Never was there a stronger or more loyal bond than that which these two man had for one another." They were inseparable and lived together openly for the rest of their lives, arousing even more interest among Kitchener's detractors, as did his passion for collecting porcelain and his liking for flower arranging.

--Zefrog 00:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] of Khartoum

Both Leigh Rayment and hereditarytitles.com say that the "of Khartoum" was part of the title, and not just the geographic locator. I'm going to move him back, unless Proteus can provide support for the claim that this was not a part of the title. john k 05:20, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The Earldom was created as "Earl Kitchener of Khartoum and of Broome in the County of Kent". Either "of Khartoum and of Broome" is a territorial designation and the title is "Earl Kitchener" or it's not and the title is "Earl Kitchener of Khartoum and of Broome" (which would be rather silly). Either way, "Earl Kitchener of Khartoum" is not an option, as it would leave "and of Broome in the County of Kent" as a territorial designation, and it's not valid as one, as territorial designations can't start with "and". (There was a thread on alt.talk.royalty about this a while ago. [I should point out that since then I've discovered that the website concerned had simply missed out the second "of Culross" and "of Magdala" from those titles, but that's not an issue with Kitchener since someone quoted the London Gazette for his creation.]) I suppose the fact that he's called "Kitchener of Khartoum" makes people think that was his title as well, but "Surname of Foreign Place" titles like that were more of a WWII thing, and weren't particularly common earlier on (so there's Viscount French (of Ypres and of High Lake), Baron Beatty (of the North Sea and of Brooksby), Viscount Nelson (of the Nile and of Burnham Thorpe), Earl Nelson (of Trafalgar and of Merton), Earl Roberts (of Kandahar and Pretoria and of the City of Waterford), Viscount Allenby (of Megiddo and of Felixstowe) etc.), with "Surname of Foreign Place" only being used when "Surname" was unavailable (like "Byng of Vimy"). Proteus (Talk) 10:49, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hmm...Burke's gives "Earl Kitchener of Khartoum and of Broome", but I've never found them to be terribly reliable. The atr discussion is interesting, but not dispositive, I think. In such a disputed case, I think, it might be wise to follow wikipedia guidelines of "most common name". Even if "Earl Kitchener of Khartoum" is not technically the name of the peerage, it is the most commonly used name, and it seems to be in dispute as to whether or not it is technically correct. Until we get a look at the letter patent, or whatever, I say we should go with it. But I'm not sure... john k 18:22, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Googling seems to indicate that the most common way to refer to him is "Lord Kitchener", so what would you think of "Horatio Herbert Kitchener, 1st Earl Kitchener (born 24 June 1850; died 5 June 1916), commonly known as Kitchener of Khartoum, was a British Field Marshal..."? Proteus (Talk) 12:12, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, of course he's normally "Lord Kitchener." Curzon was normally "Lord Curzon," not "Lord Curzon of Kedleston". I remain uncertain. john k 15:14, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I had a flick through some old London Gazettes today, and in one a dispatch from Kitchener is printed which he signs "Kitchener", so it seems that he at least considered himself to be simply Lord Kitchener. Proteus (Talk) 17:17, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Connection with Big Brother

Many say Orwell's Big Brother, "a man of about forty-five, with a heavy black moustache and ruggedly handsome features", was based on the "Kitchener poster". I think that deserves a mention here...Lebob 05:02, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In his photographs, Lord Kitchener resembles King George V and Czar Nicholas II to an almost mysterious degree.

[edit] Herbert or Horatio?

I have the vague idea that "Herbert" was the name Kitchener actually went by. If so, the article should be at Herbert Kitchener, 1st Earl Kitchener. Does anybody know for sure, though? john k 02:51, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Apparently he did, Mr. Kenney.
Moved. Proteus (Talk) 14:21, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] K.B.E.

How could His Lordship have been made a Knight of the British Empire if he had passed away a year prior to the creation of the order?
He wasn't as you correctly point out, but he was a member of the Order of Merit Valisk 2 July 2005 15:58 (UTC)

[edit] an orphaned image

Can someone put Image:LordHKitchener.jpg to good use ? -- PFHLai 06:08, 2005 August 28 (UTC)

We do not know how many recruits the famous poster encouraged, but 3 milllion seems dubious, considering there were only about 1 million British volunteers in WW1. PatGallacher 15:28, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 480 rifles???

What does this mean?

"On 4 June 1916, he personally answered questions asked by politicians of his running of the war; they learned that immediately at the start of the war Kitchener had placed huge orders for munitions with American companies, who had delivered 480 of 2,000,000 rifles ordered. He received the resounding vote of thanks from the 200+ MPs who had arrived to question him"

That Kitchener ordered 2,000,000 rifles and two years later a mere 480 of them had been delivered? And for those 480 rifles he received a resounding vote of thanks? This sentence requires a tad more clarity. --MadRat Jack 13:59, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


Well made point. Have amended it Valisk 17:38, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Style issue discussion

There is a discussion going on here whether or not the first sentence of a biographical article should contain the full name of the individual and include any post nominal initials (eg. VC, KCB, OBE) or whether these should be relegated to later in the article. I have tried to point out that this is standard style and part of their full titles but there are “readability” concerns. This arose because of the Richard O’Connor featured article and one possible solution, a biobox, is now in place on that page. Please make your opinions known.Dabbler 12:23, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bias?

Is it just me, or does the whole article have a tinge of "couldnt put a foot wrong" throughout? From education reforms to not only the children of the elite, to declaring that he would pursue a friendly truce with Germany et al, just seems to me that whomever wrote the article was implying that Lord Kitchener was a grace from god or somesuch. The tone just doesnt seem "neutral" to me. 220.235.142.170 06:16, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

History has generally been kind to Kitchener. However, the article needs development in many areas. Many incidents need expanding; there's little mention of his shortcomings as a field commander, and surprisingly nothing on the was-he-or-wasn't-he-gay debate. Nunquam Dormio 07:31, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
This last point has now been addressed. Nunquam Dormio 19:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lord Kitchener in Australia

It does not seem to get a mention in the Kitchener biography, but Lord Kitchener spent some time in Victoria, Australia near the town of Seymour, which is about 96 kms North of Melbourne. The site of which is now occupied by the racecourse at Seymour was used in 1910 for a Military Parade for Lord Kitchener. We have photos of Kitchener's tent camps in the area as well as one of an ordance train arriving at the rail station. There are also photos of bullock teams hauling Kitchener's ' Big Guns' through the township of Seymour from the rail head to his camp. There are also several photos featuring the Inscribed arch erected to " Welcome Kitchener to Seymour" There is some suggestion that during his visit he advised the then Government that the area around which is now occupied by Puckapunyal Army base in the area would be ideal for military training purposes. 203.62.141.129 10:58, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Note that someone keeps adding "mass murderer" to this page?

[edit] India: Kitchener v Curzon

I am currently reading a biography by David Gilmour on Curzon, and after having read through the part where Kitchener comes in, I believe that there is quite a gulf between Gilmour's views and the version in this article. I am not a specialist in this field, but I feel that Gilmour has a point (chapter 20: Kitchener's Conspiracy), and he went about to achieve his aims by manipulating a considerable number of people of influence. Apparently, the Army of India's state was not quite as bad as the reader of this article might believe. Any other views on this point?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.81.89.195 (talk • contribs).

I read about this in Ballard's Kitchener some years ago. From memory, the dispute centred around the role of the Military Member, whose role Kitchener felt was being enlarged and abused by Curzon to interfere with the running of the army. The Kitchener article as it stands is too vague. The dispute, which Kitchener won, is an article in itself. Nunquam Dormio 13:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
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