Talk:Hemiptera

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Article Grading: The following comments were left by the quality and importance raters: (edit · refresh) I think that this article could do with a complete rewrite. It is very messy and unclear for non-specialists, and the structure isn't appropriate. Here is what I propose: The sections should be something like "morphology", "feeding behaviour", "diversity", "taxonomy", etc., not just a list of suborders, that can be done (and is done) just as well in the taxobox. In accordance with this, the emphasis should be less on the taxonomy (of very little interest to most readers), and more on the critters themselves (what do they look like? what is their behaviour and ecology like? What is their economical importance?) The article also needs REFERENCES, as always. IronChris | (talk) 21:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Every source I find seems to differ on these. Some give Hemiptera and Homoptera as two orders. Some say the "true bugs" label is applied to Heteroptera, some to all of Hemiptera. We need an expert to clear this up! -- Tarquin 10:55 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

Almost two years on, and still confusion: Are Hemiptera Endopterigota or Hemipterodea? If the former, then the taxobox in insects is wrong. If the latter, the one in Scale insect is wrong. In any case, there should probably be an entry for the superorder in the taxobox here. Sebastian 09:10, 2005 Feb 7 (UTC)

Contents 1 So, you'd like it cleared up? 2 Requested move 3 possible rewrite 4 Rampant inconsistency and error 5 "True bugs"

[edit] So, you'd like it cleared up?

If that sentiment is sincere, I'll go ahead and try to get this all straightened out (I'm a taxonomist, working on Fulgoroidea at the moment), but be aware that the use of the name "Heteroptera" only persists among non-Linnaean classifications (i.e., classifications where clades are given names, but there are no ranks). The reason it can't be used should be clear from the conflict on the present incarnation of the Hemiptera article: you can't have a Suborder that ends in "-ptera", as that is the accepted ending for the Linnaean rank of Order. So, while you'll still see some resources using "Heteroptera", you'll note that they are generally in rankless schemes, such as the Tree of Life website (TOL Heteroptera). The traditional ending for Suborder names within the hemipteroids is "-rrhyncha", and the one used by many Hemipterists lately is "Prosorrhyncha" (proposed in 1995). You can Google it to see that has been accepted and it is still in use (e.g., Auchenorrhyncha website). I'll make a note of this on the page that the link "Heteroptera" takes you to, as well. It isn't going to be popular, but it is authoritative.Dyanega 00:57, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and made nearly all the necessary changes aside from swapping "Prosorrhyncha" for "Heteroptera" on all the lower-ranked pages. I'll note that whoever did the original species tallies for the suuborders, the numbers don't add up: 25,000 + 33,000 + 12,500 = 70,500, which is 3,000 more than the total of 67,500 given. I'll see if I can track down the real numbers, and move those figures to the respective suborder pages. Dyanega 22:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC) these bugs are scary

What's the scientific basis (or just convention) for restricting the term "bug" to this order? Basically, who declared it that way, when, and why? It would be nice to have such an explanation in the article.--4.236.30.238 18:00, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] possible rewrite

i am just an amateur entomologist and arachnologist, still a student, and therefore feel uneqipped to take on the challenge of rewriting this article myself. however, i do agree with the proposed changes and the need for a different structure to the article, and if there are folks who feel capable of heading a rewrite, i would be glad to contribute my limited knowledge and help out whenever possible. asibikaashi 22:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rampant inconsistency and error

Look at all the inconsistency within this article:

First paragraph reads:

"Hemiptera is a large, cosmopolitan order of insects, comprising some 67,500 known species in THREE suborders. Traditionally these taxa were treated as two separate orders, Homoptera (Auchenorrhyncha and Sternorrhyncha) and Heteroptera; the former name is now obsolete (the group was paraphyletic), and the latter name is falling into disuse, often replaced by Prosorrhyncha. In the latest investigations the name Auchenorrhyncha should also be replaced by Archaeorrhyncha and Clypeorrhyncha."

Sidebar reads:

Suborders
Archaeorrhyncha
Clypeorrhyncha
Prosorrhyncha
Sternorrhyncha

Chart reads:

	Sternorrhyncha Archaeorrhyncha + Clypeorrhyncha Coleorrhyncha Heteroptera

Can we get any more confusing and less consistent?

Please, we need an entomologist to fix this article and have all of its parts match the information in all other parts. Softlavender 23:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "True bugs"

We need an entomologist to make consistent the inconsistent X-refs, links, and definitions in Wikipedia about "true bugs." Start by looking up the word "bug" in Wikipedia and go from there. You'll see that nothing matches; the info in the articles contradicts what the hyperlinked pages say; and all of the information basically tends to contradict the information/definition of "true bugs" in the page for "bug." (See bug (disambiguation), Hemiptera, Heteroptera.) Please make all three of these pages consistent, and link the "bug" article to the correct "true bug" classification — not the mistaken classification for "true bug." Softlavender 23:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I am the primary editor of the pages in question, and an expert entomologist, and I have taken great pains to be explicit on each of the pages you make reference to, so people understand that entomologists generally are steering away from various historical names including Heteroptera, Homoptera, and Auchenorrhyncha. When I look up "bug" it takes me to Hemiptera, which is where it should take me, since it refers to the entire order. On the Hemiptera page it explains that "true bugs" is a name for ONLY the Heteroptera, and the Heteroptera page points out that this name is being phased out of use. The only thing I could find, in fact, that was not consistent, was that if you typed "true bug" and hit "go" it took you to Hemiptera instead of Hteroptera. I have fixed that now; you'll note that I never edited that redirect page, and I hadn't noticed the bad redirect. The tree was a recent addition, and not my idea - it's tricky to make it accurately reflect the present classification. Nonetheless, I have altered the taxobox and text slightly to clarify things. Dyanega 01:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Apologies for the rant. I made a small copyedit for clarity in the sentence regarding "true bugs" and Heteroptera/Hemiptera.

My one question remains: How many suborders are there to Hemiptera? The sidebar and the subsections at the end of the article show four, as (possibly) does the tree — yet the first paragraph still says "three." Can you fix that or clarify it for me? Thanks. :) Softlavender 03:02, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I have tried to fix the tree to reflect the rest. Let me know if there is any modification needed and you have trouble fixing it yourself. Shyamal 03:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

We still have not determined how many suborders Hemiptera has, and what exactly those four or three are. Note the first sentence of the article still says THREE suborders. I feel we should determine how many suborders Hemiptera actually has, and list those in parentheses directly after the word "three" (or "four" or "five," if it may be) in the first sentence. Otherwise what constitutes an actual definitive suborder of Hemiptera remains confusing, constantly changing, and indeterminate. If that cannot be objectively determined, we should change the word "three" (in the first sentence) to "several" or something else nonspecific. Softlavender 06:35, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: True bugs: My original complaint of inconsistency remains, if the both the bug disambiguation (which defines true bugs as Hemipteras), and also a Wikipedia search for true bug, link to two completely different pages (orders/suborders) altogether. That's blatant inconsistency for the same term, "true bug," which should link to the exact same page every time someone searches it on Wikipedia [whether someone types in "bug" or "true bug", they are inquiring about "true bug"]. I don't care which it links to, Hemiptera or Heteroptera, but they should link to one and the same, or else Wikipedia is internally inconsistent. Thanks. Also, there's no indication in the Heteroptera article that the entire order of Hemiptera is sometimes called true bugs, so therein we have another omission of highly pertinent information.

Furthermore, if the term Heteroptera is being phased out even within Linnaean taxonomy, should not "Prosorrhyncha" also now be listed/linked in the "true bug" definition, since/if it is the 'new' Heteroptera, and includes another suborder which also seem to be bugs? No information is in the article on Prosorrhyncha about being true bugs, nor is that article linked in any of these discussions or searches or disambiguations.

Proposed solution to ALL of the above problems re: true bugs: Create a mini-article (or a disambiguation which captures searches for both "bug" and "true bug") on the term "true bug" [it needn't be very large at all -- only or one sentence/paragraph or two], which details all of these permutations and confusions (or at least mentions BOTH Hemiptera AND Heteroptera). That way, all bases are covered and there is no internal inconsistency within Wikipedia. Thanks! Softlavender 07:17, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

The inconsistency you mention is due to usage rather than definition. By definition "true bug" is a Heteropteran, because that's what the common name was originally applied to. That's all. However, by usage, the term "true bug" USED to be used by almost everyone to refer to the order Hemiptera, because the only group that people were familiar with that USED to be in the Hemiptera was the Heteroptera! In other words, up until recently, Heteroptera and Hemiptera were treated as interchangeable by laypeople (the only reason they were not genuinely synonymous, technically, is that scientists placed Peloridiidae in the Hemiptera, and peloridiids are not heteropteran). Since everyone got accustomed to thinking of Heteroptera and Hemiptera as interchangeable, they both were called by the same common name. Now that Hemiptera includes other taxa besides Heteroptera, the common name "true bug" is even LESS appropriate for the order, but the problem is that (1) there are lots of old textbooks and outdated websites, so plenty of people are still going to find places where the name "true bug" is used for "Hemiptera", and (2) some scientists, rather than fight the old associations and connotations, simply go along with the historical use of "true bug" as applying to "Hemiptera" as a whole (in other words, e.g., cicadas are now true bugs, even though they never were before), so sometimes it depends on who you are talking to. There is no consensus, but this is only in the non-technical sense. In the technical sense, true bug MUST redirect to Heteroptera, even though many people do not care about technicalities. Ultimately, that's why I had things set the way they are; "bug" is certainly applicable to all Hemiptera, in both the historical and present usage, both technical and non-; however, "true bug" IS a more restricted term, because it was coined that way, and so should point to a different page than "bug" - after all, one of the goals of WP is to educate people, so it should make a difference what the technical application is. Cicadas and aphids are "bugs" because they are Hemipterans - but they are not normally considered "true bugs". I have tried to let the text of the pages point out the ambiguity, but set the page structure and arrangements so they follow the technical applications of the names. Dyanega 18:48, 9 March 2007 (UTC)