Talk:Hemiola

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Contents 1 Definition 2 West Side Story's "America" 3 Composer examples 4 Bad examples? Maybe not 5 Eroica Symphony

[edit] Definition

Hm, it's possible I'm misremembering something, but the thing I think of when I see the word "hemiola" is that thing you get at the end of courantes where two bars in 3/2 are phrased as if they are three bars of 2/2. I don't know if this is the correct meaning, an alternative meaning, or completely the wrong meaning, and the only music dictionary I've got to hand doesn't have the word in. Anybody know? --Camembert

My Oxford companion says: Hemiol aor hemiolia: superimposing two notes in the time of three -- Tarquin 12:51 24 May 2003 (UTC)

I just signed up for the free trial at http://www.xreferplus.com to check up on this, and the Grove Concise Dictionary came back with "In early music theory, the ratio 3:2. In the modern metrical system it denotes the articulation of two bars in triple metre as if they were three bars in duple. It is often used in Baroque dances such as the courante and the sarabande, generally just before a cadence; it also appears in the Viennese waltz." It seems in any case that it's limited to the ratio 3:2 - would it be fair to say that the business about 5 against 4 doesn't belong here? --Camembert

Yup. But where does it go? And how do you feel about making PNG files hsowing how "cold cup of tea" works? -- Tarquin 13:03 24 May 2003 (UTC)

I suppose I'd call 5 against 4 a "cross rhythm", although whether anybody else would, I admit I don't know. Perhaps it would fit in polyrhythm? I'm not sure - I think I know what "polyrhythm" means when applied to African music and that sort of thing, but whether it can be extended to Liszt or whoever, I'm not sure. As for the other: I'd love to make a PNG to show how "cold cup of tea" works, but I must admit I'm at a bit of a loss as to how it does work! It's a new one on me (my teacher always thumped rhythmic patterns into us by repetition, we couldn't afford mnemonics, we were down the pit until nine oclock, slept on a cold concrete floor etc). If you can explain what "cold cup of tea" is about, I'd be happy to make a PNG for it. --Camembert

Actually, I think you were maybe right first time. I was thinking about the example in my Oxford Companion. It shows music in 6/8, with two dotted crotchets vs 3 crotchets. ie, no triplets involved. Does this mean triplet-against-quavers is NOT a hemiola (because it breaks the metre), or maybe they gave this example because it's simple to write? Confused, anyway. What software package do you use for music PNGs? I have an ancient Finale and Cakewalk, but neither anti-aliases so they both looks REALLY ugly. But I could send you a cakewalk file or a PNG of it to show you how it works. -- Tarquin 14:46 24 May 2003 (UTC)

The way I'm understanding from the term now, I think triplet quavers versus straight quavers would still count because they're still in the ratio 3:2 - however, this seems to be a fairly rare (but not non-existent) usage. I'm really not sure though - before today I'd only known it as specifically relating to two bars in triple time phrased as three bars in duple, which is completely different because they happen at different points in time, if you see what I mean. I'll see what Grove has to say on the matter the next time I get the chance, if I remember. For PNGs, I use Sibelius - there's a free version at http://www.sibelius.com/download/ which doesn't let you save anything, but which is probably good enough if you're prepared to take a screen grab and export it to a graphics programme. If you want to dump your png in my sandbox then I'll see what can be done with it. --Camembert

I have here the piano album of Dave Brubeck's Miro Reflections. In the notes, he explains the timing in "It's a Raggy Waltz". The actual lenghts of the quavers does not change, but their melodic grouping puts them in threes. This is in 3/4, so the groups end up crossing bar lines. He says this shifting of accents is "hemiola" (and above, I was thinking of this, but remembering it incorrectly -- sorry), and refers to the Harvard Dict. of Music. -- Tarquin 16:21 24 May 2003 (UTC)

I guess that would work because the groups of 3 quavers are working against the basic beat of 2 quavers. I think my local library has the Harvard Dictionary, so I'll see what it has to say on Monday. I'm going to leave the article until then though, because I've got pretty confused about it all, and want to check some more sources. --Camembert

Ok. I'll make the "cold cup of tea" stuff anyway, whever it ends up being :-) -- Tarquin 16:48 24 May 2003 (UTC) PS: you're in the UK, right? Bank holiday...

Another one? We've only just had Easter and May Day.... (not that I'm complaining, mind) --Camembert

Cold cup of tea:

Weather, though this is crummy because I made it with Finale. Sibelius refused to write the 4 as quavers, insisting on semiquavers. Grumble.... -- Tarquin 22:21 24 May 2003 (UTC)

Ah! I get it now! Now we just have to work out where to put them... (I just spent half an hour trying to get Sibelius to write quavers, because I was convinced there was a way, but I shouldn't have doubted you - I'm now convinced there isn't a way. However, I did make a version with quavers by erasing the second beam in graphics software. I'll upload it eventually (29th June, 2003 - finally uploaded it) --Camembert

The more I ponder this, the more I'm convince cross-rhythms (or whatever they're called) havie nothing to do with hemiola. Here's a snip from Mozzy's K332, with hemiola in the second two bars:

That's just the sort of thing I was thinking of. I'm pretty convinced this is where the article's going as well, but I'll still check in Grove tomorrow before editing it just to be absolutely sure.

By the way, the Grove Concise Dictionary reckons "cross-rhythms" have more to do with syncopation than anything else - shifting the stress to off the beat (which, now I come to think of it, seems right to me as well). So I guess that's not what we're looking for with your cold cups of tea. Do you happen to know if there's a generic name for triplets, quadruplets, quintuplets and so on? That'd be a good place to put them (I can't think of such a name myself, tho). --Camembert

Well in maths they're n-tuples. Finale calls one of its tools the "Tuple" tool, though Finale is the worst piece of software ever written by monkeys. But the cold cup of tea is combined cross-rhythms that don't match. The plot thickens.... Still, at least we have a pic for this hemiola article now. I might try recording an OGG of me playing that bit -- what do you think? -- Tarquin 21:20 26 May 2003 (UTC)

Sounds great - go for it (you might perhaps continue a bar or two beyond the .png to show the return to 3/4 - then again, that might confuse things). I think I've heard references to tuples in music, but can't seem to find any evidence of this usage on the web (where I admit I've not looked very hard) or in any dictionaries, so maybe I dreamt it (I didn't pick it up from Finale, I've never used Finale (thank god, by the sound of it)). --Camembert

On second thoughts, MIDI might be simpler, since I downloaded one to make that PNG. I don't have a decent microphone, and those bass notes will probably overload and sound dreadful. -- Tarquin

Well, I got to Grove, and the page as it stands reflects what Grove says - hope it all makes sense. That just leaves the cold cups of tea: Grove says that "cross-rhythms" are where accents are shifted to the wrong place in the bar - it gives the example of breaking a bar in 4/4 down into groups of 3, 3 and 2 quavers (like those things in "Bulgarian rhythm" that Bartók wrote). I think that polyrhythm is probably the best place for the cold tea and bad weather - I wasn't sure if the word was properly applied to things on such a small scale (I was thinking polyrhythm would be, for example, parts in 3/4 time and 5/4 time going on at the same time) but Grove says it is "the superposition of different rhythms or metres..." (it goes on to to say that "cross-rhythm" is sometimes used as a synonym for polyrhythm, but that this isn't strictly speaking correct). So that looks like it - I certainly couldn't come up with a better name (there was no article on "tuple"). --Camembert

Great work on the article! I'll read through the notes in my Chopin and Schubert to see if the editors refer to tuples by name -- Tarquin 19:45 27 May 2003 (UTC)

[edit] West Side Story's "America"

Now, I'm not completely sure if this is relevent since I'm not completely sure that I understand the concept of the hemiola, but America has a dual time signature, every other measure is 6/8. There is a pattern- 6/8, 3/4, 6/8, 3/4, 6/8, 3/4, etc. So based on that, I don't think it classifies.

Please, Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks.

It is the classic example, as "Maria" is for the tritone. Hyacinth 21:11, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Seems to me simply like a more detailed way of notating what for all intents and purposes is still a hemiola. 17th century courantes might have been written like that, if people then were as pedantic about notation as we are today. EldKatt (Talk) 16:37, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

"Hemiola and mixed metres should not be confused", eh? I think that clarity and pedantry should not be confused. It seems to me that the comments about West Side Story NOT being a hemiola were written by somebody with their knickers in a knot about a particular issue, and are hence not great encyclopaedic writing. NcLean

There's only a very small difference between America's mixed meter and a true instance of hemiola. True, it is a mixed meter, because it alternates in time signature between 6/8 and 3/4, but that's purely a notation issue*. If it had been written in 3/8, then it would indeed be a hemiola: (here, I'll just put the words, use | as a barline, and - as a note lengthifier (for crotchets))

I want to | be in a | me - ri | - ca - |

So the difference is trivial.

• It is more than an arbitrary decision, though. It wouldn't really be appropriate to write is as a hemiola, because in the context of classical music, hemiolas were used rarely, ie only at cadence points, whereas America uses swaps every bar. 60.240.102.73 00:51, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I wouldn't agree with this generalization. I've seen courants where hemiolas almost outnumber the "regular" bars. We're not talking about a regularized mixed meter with hemiolas precisely every other bar, but it is in some cases used to a great extent in classical music as well. Still, I wouldn't mind dropping America from this page altogether, only because it would be so easy to find lots and lots of examples of hemiolas in cases where everyone would agree on what to call them. EldKatt (Talk) 09:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with NcLean. Written time signatures should not be the definitive answer as to whether something is a hemiola or not. Especially considering that the accented notes in the left hand of the example spells out the exact same rhythm (albeit much more slowly). I might also add that common usage among professional classical musicians today is to refer ro any regrouping of 6 notes as a hemiola. AndrewT 01:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Composer examples

I feel somewhat uncomfortable with this sentence from the article:

Composers of classical music who have used the device particularly extensively include Arcangelo Corelli, George Frideric Handel and Johannes Brahms.

Hemiolas are so frequent (at least during some periods) that it feels rather misleading to point out individual composers. Sure, Corelli used it a lot, but so did a vast amount of his contemporaries. (For starters, just about everybody who has written a courant, and that's a lot of people.) And just about all of those guys probably used it more than Händel and Brahms (I don't really associate their respective styles with hemiolas). I decided to suppress my urge to delete it until I get at least one second opinion. EldKatt (Talk) 16:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bad examples? Maybe not

Neither of the two excerpts here appears to me to be true hemiola at all, much less a good, clear example of it.

In the Mozart, only bar 64 looks like even a candidate, and it'd be a stretch to call it hemiola when it's so similar to the rhythm in the first two bars. [EDIT: I see it now that I actually read the accompanying text. My bad. SFT | Talk] And I don't know what in the world someone was thinking with the Des Prez. Yes, it has a couple of places where one voice holds while the other moves, then the other holds while the one moves, but um, that's not three-against-two.

I'll try to come up with some better examples when I'm back in front of my computer that has Finale.

(Oh, and incidentally -- if Finale is so Godforsaken, why could you get it to notate your example correctly but not Sibelius? 8) ) SFT | Talk 19:41, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Seeing the Desprez example makes me think I'm missing something, and this alone makes me hesitate about removing it right away. It's beyond me how hemiolas can exist at all in duple metre, but perhaps there's something I don't understand. EldKatt (Talk) 09:35, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I almost think the same, and am tempted to give it benefit of the doubt. But as the example is unmistakeably weird and unclear --- regardless of its correctness --- I think the burden of proof is on the folks who want the example included. So I'm nuking it for now. SFT | Talk 05:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eroica Symphony

Perhaps a good example of Hemiola is the Eroica symphony. I'll get a file. --Stratford15 00:21, 14 January 2007 (UTC) It seems to me that I can't upload in bitmap, TIFF or EPS.--Stratford15 00:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)