Talk:Hellyer College

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from VfD:

Non-notable high school. Another link in the chain of silly articles leading back to Thomas Hatcher. -Randwicked 11:23, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Keep. I voted against Thomas Hatcher, Burnie High School, Neville Windsor and so on. This one however should stay. It is one of only eight public senior secondary colleges in the state. Actually I went to update and expand this article earlier, but its web site is pretty bare at the moment. -- Chuq 12:12, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Needs improving, and in the next few days. Or I'll vote delete. Average Earthman 12:48, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. Chuq's argument sounds good to me, so I've changed my vote from delete to keep. I've also edited it to try to make it a passable stub. Jll 12:51, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Delete. I think that it's still non-notable. --G Rutter 14:03, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Delete. Not notable. Unlikely to expand into an article. -- WOT 16:00, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Delete if not quickly improved. If there is a good article here, no hurry. It would be just as easy for Chuq or anyone else with knowledge of the school to start fresh as to use this. Jallan 17:45, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. The Recycling Troll 20:57, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• I'm not familiar with the structure of Australia's educational system, but this seems to be what is called in the US a high school. Being only one of eight in a state does not make a high school notable DeleteDsmdgold 21:10, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • No, its not a high school. Tasmania's public schooling system has (rough guesses) probably at least a hundred high schools (7-10), and over 300 primary schools (K-6). It only has eight colleges (11-12). -- Chuq 22:43, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • Comment: In the U.S., that would in fact make it a high school. What you call "high schools", we would call "middle schools" or "junior high schools". College is reserved for "institutions of higher learning" (where one would get a bachelor's degree or a Ph.D.). --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 23:17, 2004 Sep 30 (UTC)
      • Ahh, I was aware that your "college" was our "university", and your junior high I thought was grade 7-8. But anyway, using Tasmania as an example, we have eight colleges for a population of 470,000 (total population, not students). I'm not really sure about elsewhere in Australia either. -- Chuq 23:44, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
        • In the U.S., 7-8 is "junior high". Usually 6-8 is "middle school" and 7-9 is "junior high" and 9-12 or 10-12 is "high school" or "senior high". Just to point out that Americans have to clarify each other's usage of "junior high", also. [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]]
• If there are only eight 11-12th year schools in Tasmania, then write an article about "colleges" in Tasmania (taking the opportunity to note briefly that it is grades 11 and 12). That would be encyclopedic, and then we could merge and redirect. [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 01:03, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • I think an article on the Tasmanian educational system would be a great idea. The fact that in Tasmania the vast majority of students only attend school through grade 10, is significant, and should be in the encyclopedia. (I assume that this is the implication of having a hundred or so "high schools" but only eight "colleges", unless the "colleges" are huge.) As a side note, the town I live in has Elementary Schools (K-5), Middle Schools (6-8) a "Mid-High" (9-10) and a High School (11-12). So far as I know there is no US school that contains grades 7-10 like the Tasmanian High Schools.
    • The fact that in Tasmania the vast majority of students only attend school through grade 10 what?! (a) my numbers before were wrong, there are about 50 high schools, see Education in Tasmania (b) the colleges are a lot bigger, thats the point of my "keep" vote! An average of 7 high schools each "feed" into a college. -- Chuq 04:19, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • I'm sorry if I have made a false assumption. However, the Burnie High School articel says that it has about 1200 students grades 7-10 for an average of 300 students per grade. The Hellyer College article says that it has 900 students in two grades, for an average of 450 per grade. Assuming these schools are representative and there are 57 high schools and 8 colleges, that would mean that there 17,100 students per grade in high school and 3600 hundred students per grade in college. If Burnie is unusually large or Hellyer is unusually small, or the numbers in the articles are wrong then these numbers would not apply. Whatever the case, I simply do not think that a school teaching grades 11 and 12 is notable in and of itself. (The "high school" in my hometown teaches only grades 11 and 12, and has more than 900 students, but you won't see a Bartlesville High School article any time soon.) Dsmdgold 05:21, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Delete. The second paragraph isn't NPOV and not particularly true anyway. And I'm reasonably sure there's more than eight secondary schools in Tasmania - there are two or three in Burnie alone, and it's the fourth largest city. --uvarov 04:38, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)
  • I see that it's one of 8 public high schools. I don't see why that should make a difference though. --uvarov 04:39, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)

• Comment:

AHD4, a dictionary of U. S. usage (and what they say corresponds with usage as I know it in the U.S.) saith:

elementary school 1. A school for the first four to eight years of a child's formal education, often including kindergarten. 2. The first four to eight years of a child's formal education. Also called grade school, grammar school, primary school.

middle school A school at a level between elementary and high school, typically including grades five through eight

junior high school. A school in the U.S. system generally including the seventh, eighth, and sometimes ninth grade

high school: A secondary school that usually includes grades 9 or 10 through 12.

where Age = approximately grade + 5, where K = 0. I personally think of "elementary school" as K through 5 or 6, "middle school" as 6, 7, and 8, "junior high school" as 7 and 8 or 7, 8, and 9, and "high school" as 9 through 12 or 10 through 12. Local school systems tend to regard the dividing lines as being a great big deal and it's considered enormously innovative and revolutionary when a community decides to switch from, say, a "junior high school" to a "middle school" structure or vice versa. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 01:07, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Comment: I would much prefer to see an article about "secondary education in Tasmania" then a listing of an individual school. No vote yet. Article is currently low quality, BEEFSTEW points: B (1/10). If I understand that Chuq is suggesting that he's reasonably likely to work on it I'll probably vote to keep, since my big problem with school articles is that usually there is nobody able or interested in working on the article, and the stubs do not grow. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 01:07, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Comment: well done to JII i think it was who fixed the article. it is now a fantastic stub, and im sure heaps of hellyer students (myself included) will love to expand the article and make it a good wikipedia article. dont delete because people from hellyer will prob just make a new one anyway, that is full of garbage. at least this one is respectable. but one on colleges in Tasmania would be a good idea, with a link to Hellyer. Codywilson 02:16, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Comment: check out Education in Tasmania. The articles linked are the places that I think are big enough to deserve articles. -- Chuq 02:27, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Question: ok if Aus Uni = USA College, what it the Australian equivalent of a USA Uni??? I agree with USer:Chuq last post too. Codywilson 02:28, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If I understand correctly, in the US, Colleges do not have post-graduate degrees, while universities do. This is not a hard and fast rule, however, and exceptions abound. -Vina 03:10, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Please note: Australian high schools are NOT equivalent to junior high, etc, in America. We have primary (read elementary school), then high school, and then university. So the notability criteria of "senior high is okay, but not junior high" falls through here, because there's no division, and it's simply ridiculous to delete any high schools that aren't in the United States because they don't fit a criteria which was designed with only the United States in mind. Ambi 03:30, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

IMO, unless otherwise demonstrated, neither senior high nor junior high is notable, and therefore not ok. A combination school of 7-12 grade is no more notable than either category. I feel that dpsmith's BEEFSTEW criteria is way too lenient, and does not follow the concept that local notability does not equate encyclopedic. -Vina 05:56, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Keep -- Popsracer 12:41, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Keep - SimonP 04:30, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)

Template:End moved discussion