Talk:Helios Airways Flight 522

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Disaster Management.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Aviation, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles related to aviation. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
Portal:Aviation
 Aviation Portal
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.

Contents

[edit] Private investigation

The Discovery channel documentary claims that on few days earlier there had been report of burning smell and that the wires to the cockpit indicator of the pressurization door are located such that if one goes out, there's a good chance that the backup goes out too, making it possible that everything could look normal while the door was still open and thus there was no pressurization. And on this flight the maintenance person remembers setting pressurization to manual for reason not expained.

[edit] Image Spelling Mistake

It's Cyprus not Cypres, not very important but still.

[edit] Sorry

I apologise if people have been having trouble editing this page due to me changing its title every 5 minutes. I think its current name, "Helios Airways Flight 522", matches the naming convention used for other air incident articles. - Mark 10:40, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hijacking - seems not

The BBC is reporting that the Greek defense minister is saying there is "no indication of hijack", and that Larnaca airport said the crash was "likely due to cabin pressure". A passenger reportedly texted someone to say he'd gone to the cockpit and "one pilot was blue", another text said "goodbye, we are all freezing". -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 11:04, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

And that the F16 pilots reported seeing the cabin oxygen masks dangling down. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 11:05, August 14, 2005 (UTC)
The BBC also had an unconfirmed report that there had been problems with the aircraft's air system prior to takeoff. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 11:09, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Flight number

Phileleftheros, the leading newspaper in Cyprus is reporting the flight number as HCY 522, not ZU 522. Changed on wikinews also. It is also being reported as a Boeing 737/800 not 300.

More likely a 300 but wait for confirmation Andypasto 12:38, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

  • ZU and HCY are codes used by the same company on different authorities (IATA and ICAO). It's the same flight.

[edit] The SMS message

SKY News reports that the English translation of the text message would be: "The captain has turned blue in his face. Farewell, cousin, we are freezing." Which is the correct translation? SAB 11:51, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

  • I put in the BBC translation. Let's not be too creepy without reason. Elfguy 15:05, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
  • In the Greek media (for instance, TV station "Alpha"), Sotiris Voutas (the recipient of the SMS message) said that the message informed him that the pilot is dead and that they're freezing. This seems to match the fighter pilots' testimony.
  • Knowing modern Greek looking at the source mentioned (source: flash.gr: [1]) ... the source only states literally: 'the pilot is dead and we're freezing' ... nothing about 'farewell cousin' and nothing about the pilot's face being blue. FWIW --69.204.215.5 22:44, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Since I am living here in Greece, I got to see live the cousin of the passenger that sent the message, reading it over the phone during a news cast. I am both a native speaker of English and Greek, so I am confident of the translation of words. The sms did mention that the pilots had a purple (as in a bruise) color and the sender did say farewell. Though, the quote given in the article of flash.gr [2] dose not include that par it is mentioned. I should mention though that I am very skeptical of the validity of the sms as it strikes me as odd that a passenger would manage to send a message somehow while a pilot would not. Roden Aurays 10:44, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Triangular distress pattern

Absent confirmation, this item should be removed. The emerging picture seems to indicate that the pilots were incapable of controling the plane or communicating by the time the airforce jets had neared the stricken aircraft. Myron 15:29, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely (why didn't you do it though, I must ask?) Dan100 (Talk) 09:36, August 15, 2005 (UTC)
  • Government spokesman Theodoros Roussopoulos said that the fighter pilots mentioned the triangular distress pattern in their testimony.

One over-excited government official does not make a solid source. Dan100 (Talk) 13:52, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

  • Government spokesmen by definition cannot be over-excited; instead, their statements are always reserved Elp_gr

Now they're saying it was most likely going in circles on autopilot, waiting for someone aboard to commence the landing procedure.

[edit] Decompression

Perhaps the sentence about decompression should be suspended pending further information. While sudden decompression can indeed cause structural damage and mechanically lead to a crash, it can also cause a crash indirectly, by knocking out the pilots. In the instant case, there seems to be talk of a decompression problem having occurred on the aircraft previously. During the flight a passenger sent a message that it was freezing cold in the cabin. Rapid loss of cabin pressure could directly result in lower temperature, as could ingestion of very cold outside air. Low air pressure (at 30,000 feet) can cause a person to lose consciousness within 30 seconds if supplemental oxygen is unavailable. There was mention in some news report that the emergency oxygen equipment may have failed and that the fighter jet pilots saw oxygen masks dangling within the passenger cabin. The pilot turning blue (if indeed that was reported) would be consistent with an oxygen problem. All this suggests that decompression combined with faulty oxygen equipment could have been the basic cause of the crash. Myron 15:45, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

The following statement is scientifically incorrect and has been removed:
However, at 34,000 feet (10,000 m) altitude even a tight-fitting mask fed by 100% oxygen can supply at best only 90% of sea-level partial pressure of oxygen until the aircraft reaches a lower altitude, just enough for most healthy non-smokers to maintain full mental acuity.
If this were true, people would be struggling to maintain mental acuity at 3000 feet, where the partial pressure of oxygen is also only 90% of that at sea level! If this were true, I sure wouldn't want to visit Denver!
Actually, the Time of Useful Consciousness is indefinite at roughly 15,000 ft, where the partial pressure of oxygen is only 50% of the pressure in a 100% oxygen mask at 34,000 ft. Thus, you should be able to maintain useful conciousness indefinitely when the pressure in the O2 mask is 50% of the partial pressure of O2 at sea level, which means you're good to over 40,000 ft. Don't try doing any jumping jacks, though. Fighter pilots, who have more strenuous jobs, need to have special pressurized flow oxygen masks, which also let them fly to 50,000 ft.
Komodon 18:57, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Out of fuel?

Who says the plane crashed because it ran out of fuel? Should we remove this line from the chronology until the statement is substantiated? Myron 17:45, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

  • This was a very early guess, but I don't think it could be substantiated, because the plane's crash caused a large bush fire.
    • An out-of-fuel plane would still cause a bushfire. Aviation fuel isn't as flammable as aviation fuel fumes... of which there'd have been plenty. Something had to bring the plane down from 30k feet, and fuel's the most likely. — ceejayoz ★ 04:46, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Almost certainly ran out of fuel - the aircraft crashed 90mins after it's ETA, which suggests it used it's reserve then crashed. Dan100 (Talk) 09:34, August 15, 2005 (UTC)
UK Channel 4 News reported that it ran out of fuel in their 7 o'clock news but didn't give a source. 83.67.4.159 19:28, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Ran out of fuel? So how do you explain the problems in the cockpit observed by the F16 pilot(s)?
    • In fact, these problems (co-pilot incapacitated, pilot missing, then somebody was trying to regain control of the plane, perhaps in an attempt to either save it or crash it away from Athens) the F-16 pilots observed are what caused the plane to be going round and round... --Elp_gr
Yeah, it's sounding like one engine went dry first, then the other's thrust forced the plane into a spiral, and the lower overall thrust allowed it to decelerate and descend -- which behavior combined with heavier atmosphere may have revived some of the pax. What a horrible thing to wake up to. --Dhartung | Talk 23:41, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
How can the plane burst into flames if there is no fuel. it doesn't make any sense.

[edit] 737-31S

What is a 737-31S, exactly? Sources I've seen call it a 737-300.--Pharos 19:27, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

The last two digits of the type suffix on Boeing jetliners designates the aircraft's original customer and is known as the customer code. Saying -300 is generic, while -31S is the code on that particular aircraft's operating certificate, and indicates that the aircraft was originally ordered by Deutsche BA. Hawaiian717 19:42, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Shoot?

The article currently mentions that the escorting fighter planes were on a mission to *shoot* the 737, if necessary - are you sure? I could not find this in any of the sources, could you please subtantiate? (Besides, I can't understand why!) Gajamukhu 03:02, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

The airliner was declared "renegade", which is standard procedure for a loss-of-contact anywhere. The fighters are sent just to check it out. Of course, if there was a strong suspicion of a forth-coming 9/11 style attack, then they could be ordered to shoot it down. But that's not what happened here. Dan100 (Talk) 09:32, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Re-write

This article reads as if it were written by people for whom English is not a first languge. Anyone want to attempt a re-write? It's passable English, but rather awkward and clunky in places for an encyclopedia entry. Moncrief 05:49, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

It's also hopelessy inaccurate. I think I will undertake this task, but I'd rather people just read the Wikinews article, which is far better. Dan100 (Talk) 09:26, August 15, 2005 (UTC)
Hopefully it's a bit better now. Dan100 (Talk) 09:57, August 15, 2005 (UTC)
It's not, because your latest edit omits recently broadcasted information from reliable media that has been confirmed about a few hours ago by official sources and eyewitnesses. Furthermore, in your massive removal of the most recent news, you also removed the correction of a typo. It is not "figher", but "fighter".

Read Wikipedia:Verifiability. Dan100 (Talk) 11:52, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

The article became overloaded with longwinded attribution of sources and material that has been refuted by new disclosures. A major purpose of Wikipedia is to nail down history. Since the Helios crash is no longer exactly breaking news, it should be trimmed to be a real encyclopedia article. I've revised it in keeping wiht Dan100's wise recommendation about verifiability Myron 02:41, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Passenger list

The passenger information in the current wikipedia article is inaccurate. Please read the latest Cyprus News Agency press release. Wikinews more current.

I do not think it is a good idea to publish the addresses of the victims. Alkarex 14:32, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I fully agree, for both ethical and practical reasons... JoanneB 14:39, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
It's perverse to publish the addresses of the victims. --217.110.229.10 16:39, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
How about showing the burnt victims? See the edit DaemonDivinus had done (and it's thankfully gone now)... --Elp_gr

I happen to know for a fact that Cypriots living around the world who are not in close touch with their relatives back home for whatever reason have used web-based lists to determine who was on the plane. I think it's legitimate that they be able to do so. I agree that photos of bodies are a tasteless thing to put on the web, but simply saying who died is pure information that should not be censored. The victims should not be anonymous.

[edit] Final attempt to save the plane

i have written that "According to Alpha TV's reporter Demos Verykios, F-16 pilots saw one person in the cockpit, seemingly trying to regain control of the plane with the help of the co-pilot -who seems to have woken up-, during the last moments before the crash. That seems to be confirmed by the fact that the body of a female flight attendant was found in the cockpit."

Also, according to this(in greek) which is an account of the statements Mr. Rousopoulos made yesterday (he is the government representative, so his statements are as official as it gets), mr Verykios's statements are being confirmed.

Some hours ago, my edit was corrected as being discounted. Could i have a source for that? Should i replace it, including Mr. Rousopoulos's statements?--Costas Skarlatos 16:50, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

The F-16 pilots reported somebody was trying to regain control of the plane. It could be air steward Andreas Prodromou, who had a pilot's licence. (article in Greek: [3]). I think we should keep this information for future reference, in case it is confirmed. Update: I'm adding this link: [4] --Elp_gr

[edit] Where Were the F-16s Actually Based?

Wiki articles variously specify the F-16s came from Araxos or Néa Anchialos and that they were from the 116th or 117th Combat [sic] Wing. What is the truth and what is most precise?

The Wikipedia List of aircraft of the Hellenic Air Force shows 165 F-16s total but does not specify where they are deployed. According to Structure of the Hellenic Air Force, the 116th Fighter [sic] Wing (116 Πτέρυγα Μάχης) is based at Araxos, while the 117th is at Andravida. The home of the 111th is not given in that Wikipedia article. However, other sources [5][6] put the 111th at Néa Anghialos and indicate that it is the 111th Pterix that operates all the F-16s (F-16C/D Blocks 30 and 50) and that the 116th operates only nuclear-capable aging Vaught A-7E and A-7H Corsairs, one of which crashed March 22, 2002 on a training flight from Araxos [7], another of which was lost on a training flight from Araxos July 5, 2005 [8]. On the other hand two F-16s attempting to return from a training flight to Néa Anghialos, collided and crashed on October 14, 2004 [9][10].

All of this strongly albeit indirectly indicates that the F-16s that scrambled to intercept Helios Airways Flight 522 were actually from the 111th based at the military airport near Néa Anghialos, which is on Pagassitikos Bay (AKA Pagasetic Gulf) and nowhere near Araxos (see http://www.scramble.nl/gr.htm and click on "Order of Battle").

If I don't hear differently, I'll correct the Helios article as per the above. Myron 00:58, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Passenger list removal

I suggest to remove the passenger list from the article, it does not add anything or help to understand the events.

(At least to seperate from main article) --Yiango 10:34, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

I strongly agree! It has no function and I think it's inappriopriate. JoanneB 10:53, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
No. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Encyclopedias are informative, and we should inform those who read this. What about the list of people that died on the Titanic? All the exhibits at museums have a complete list of those who died that night. So, given that information, why should we exclude the passenger list?
Agreed. In monuments dedicated to the memories of people lost in major accidents or acts of war (such as villages and townships destroyed by one party or the other), there are listings of the victims. It's merely informative and a small form of homage to the deceased.
I absolutely disagree. There is a difference between publishing lists with the names of people that died in an accident 90 years ago or today, and also between publishing them at a memorial site or on the internet at a point when their bodies haven't even been identified. I find it an invasion of the victims' privacy and that of their families, especially if information like age and occupation are added. I don't see how the list adds to the informative value of the article and I certainly cannot see it as a form of hommage to the victims. If anything, it adds a sense of sensation-seeking to the article. I definitely vote for removal. Kiwiki 15:32, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
My point exactly. Wikipedia is not intended as a monument, nor a museum. JoanneB 15:40, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I agree. The passenger list does not add at all to the informative content of the article. It should be replaced with a link to other websites that have the passenger list. Tempshill 16:05, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Get rid of it. It's huge, ugly, and utterly useless to 99.999% of the people seeing the page. — ceejayoz ★ 16:55, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Then what could be said about that guy who posted the picture of a charred passenger's body?

[edit] What was the condition of the passengers before the crash?

According to this article from Greek newspaper Eleftherotypia ([11]), locals who rushed to the crash site before the plane caught fire report that the bodies were jaundiced and looked like "wax statues". They also reported that the deceased passengers had bruises and wounds, but no blood was coming out of them. Also, the coroners report that the first autopsies show the autopsied victims had blood circulation and respiration at the time of the crash ([12]). Can we draw any conclusions?

I doubt the first part of what you mentioned above; according to Reuters, the bodies are said to all be charred beyond recognition. Tempshill 16:03, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Oh, and it's silly to suggest the plane crashed, then there was a lot of time for people to run to the site and look at the bodies, and then the wreck burst into flames. Tempshill 16:06, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
The locals who rushed to the scene clearly said that the fire (which burnt the bodies) broke out later on and they were ordered by fire and rescue squads to evacuate the scene as the flames started burning the remains of the plane and the passengers. At least that's what the populations of a few villages report (and that's a few hundred people). Are they all wrong or delusional? Besides, the plane was rather low on fuel at the time of the crash. Its doomed flight lasted three hours (it should have lasted less than one and a half) and was going to refuel in Athens.

[edit] Article has improved a lot

Just wanted to say that the quality of the article has improved tremendously over the past 24 hours, especially the analysis. Thanks to all contributors who helped assemble the article on this sad event, based on piecemeal information. Tempshill 16:05, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

You are welcome; glad we could be of service and of the necessary quality to satisfy you so well. What, are you the owner of this site or something? Jeez.....
I guess I will never say anything nice again. Thanks for setting me straight. Tempshill 21:33, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I want to thank whoever removed the photograph of the burned passenger. Posting it was gruesome and disrespectful to the victims of this tragedy. --Elp_gr

[edit] Where was the pilot?

Has anyone heard or have theories on the location of the East German pilot? He was reportedly not in the cockpit when the F-16s were escorting, and they still have not found his body.

There is no East Germany anymore. He is a German citizen. As for his body, the coroner has indicated that many bodies are burned beyond recognition, and will require dental identification. --Dhartung | Talk 06:20, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Refuting the false information

Unfortunately the Helios incident has spawned more false stories, exaggerations than any other incident in Cyprus/Greece than I care to remember. The media here are primarily to blame for this, since they are coming to, sometimes, irrational and uneducated assumptions that are misleading to the public since they do not present the "whole picture".

A dire consequence of the unprofessional reporting by the media here is that people are afraid to fly (especially with Helios), citing that their 'aircraft are not safe', when in fact all evidence up to now shows that all checks have indeed been passed. There is a constant referral to prior events (e.g. one decompression problem that was fixed + weak air conditioning onboard).

Would it be okay to aggregate all this (false/unproved) information in an attempt to debunk or at least show that there is insufficient evidence to prove such claims in order to better inform the public. Is Wikipedia the correct forum for such research?

Examples of claims that need to be researched:

  1. There have been reports that the aircraft has not been certified 'by eurocontrol', as a result it was flying at a higher altitude than it was certified to (there are reports it is only licensed to fly up to 28k feet).
  2. The crew members of Helios are refusing to fly with their own aircraft fearing their safety
  3. a 5-6 year old child was alive even after the crash, however died in the subsequent fire/explosion
  4. Was the German's pilot license valid?

Please voice your suggestions and comments. --Yiango 10:33, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

I can offer what the coroner reported reported regarding the 5-7 year old child. There is an article (in Greek) by in.gr ([13]), which states that coroner Nikos Kalogrias found that this particular victim (a 5-7 year old boy) was alive after the crash, but succumbed to his wounds.
There are also reports from the Cypriot newspaper "Phileleftheros". In its printed version, it publishes an official document according to which the plane was not licensed to fly above 28k feet. Also, in the same article (in Greek [14]), the British advisor of Cyprus' Civil Aviation Authority, Tim Taylor, is writing in a letter (which is now published in the Greek newspapers and media as well) that no real pre-flight checks were done on that plane after the maintenance contracts expired, since the funds for this were not approved. This, according to his letter (Greek-language article of the newspaper Eleftherotypia: [15]) had been going on for 8 months (!!!).
Also, the same newspaper (article in Greek: [16]) reports that the European Union had sent an ultimatum to Cyprus to pass flight safety and aircraft accident investigation legislation that will be in accordance to the 94/56/EC directive.
As for the fear among the passengers towards budget airlines, I find it normal. After the deregulation of air transport, we've seen plenty of "budget" airlines, many of which do not seem trustworthy at all. And if we also remember what Michael Moore wrote in his book "Stupid White Men" about the outrageously low wages some well-known U.S. airlines allegedly pay their pilots, things are seriously worrying. --Elp_gr
Update: Yahoo! News article about the boy... [17] I'm waiting to find English-language articles regarding the documents against Helios Airways that the "Phileleftheros" newspaper in Cyprus brings forward. --Elp_gr
Phileleftheros newspaper has been proved wrong in a lot of their stories (concerning the accident). The minister of transport has said (and has been published by the CNA [18] that the aircraft was in fact certified to fly over 29k.
I'll wait and see. The TV here showed the documents "Phileleftheros" made public. This whole thing is very fishy and, from what I can gather, everything points at a pathetically unprofessional company. --Elp_gr
BTW, an unidentified person also called Helios Airways', claiming that they had placed a bomb in their offices. Police report in Greek here. --Yiango 21:34, August 17, 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Distress Signal

I don't know how true this information is as this is the first time I'm reading it, but if true, Turkey received a distress signal by the Helios aircraft at some point. I'll be checking tomorrow to see if any more stories back up this claim. Here's the link:Turkey and Greece clash over Helios emergency code K... 04:59, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Further Developments?

It's been many months, yet nothing (the cause of crash etc) has been found? Has there been no updates? --Zeno McDohl 03:26, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

  • As is usual, the investigation takes a considerable period. Much of the information that has been published by the media is ill-informed speculation and not worthy of inclusion in a Wikipedia article. Further comment should await publication of the report. treesmill 21:53, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Explosive decompression

Flight recorder data make it clear that explosive decompression was not a factor in this accident. True explosive decompressions are rare, one example of one which was virtually instantaneous but survivable was that of the Aloha Airlines Flight 243 Boeing 737 that lost a large section of roof while cruising at 24,000', illustrating how big a hole is needed to cause instantaneous decompression. A more typical decompression takes an appreciable time for pressure to be lost even with a hole the size, for example, of a window in the airframe. Talk of consciousness times in the 3-5 second range is therefore misplaced. treesmill 01:49, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Interim report

Here's a link to an article which details about the interim report of this accident in English version.

Helios Flight 522 was destined to crash

We may be able to update/rewrite the "Further Development" section basing on new information.

ppa 21:55, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

There is little if anything new in the above article, and some of it is clearly wrong though this may be due to poor translation. treesmill 18:56, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Incorporate final investigation report

Apparently this article is not in sync with the most recent findings of the crash investigation. I'm not sure where the official report can be found by this link suggests information is missing:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20050814-0&lang=en

Update: A link to the full, official report in english was added on 10 December 2006:

http://www.moi.gov.cy/moi/pio/pio.nsf/All/F15FBD7320037284C2257204002B6243?OpenDocument&highlight=5B-DBY

9mb PDF: http://www.moi.gov.cy/moi/pio/pio.nsf/All/F15FBD7320037284C2257204002B6243/$file/FINAL%20REPORT%205B-DBY.pdf

[edit] Aircraft security features

A Discovery Channel programme onon this subject contained an alligation by an air crash investigator that the reinforced cabin door prevented the air steward from entering the cockpit before it was too late to prevent the crash. Can anyone cite other evidence for or against this? Unfortunately it must remain a speculation, as though the black boxes records when they entered the cabin, it doesn't record how many long it took them. But in the wake of ever increasing aircraft and airport security, isn't such professional speculation noteworthy? ANTIcarrot 15:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../h/e/l/Talk%7EHelios_Airways_Flight_522_d469.html"