Talk:Helen Keller

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[edit] Hellen Keller jokes

As a european I do not know much about Hellen Keller humor or jokes, but having found some referencies around the internet I came to Wikipedia to look for more info. Unfortunately there is absolutely no mention of that on the Hellen Keller wikipedia page even if there are tons of results on a google search for Hellen Keller jokes.

I think this is deeply wrong. The way I understand Wikipedia and the NPOV policy this kind of informantion should not be hidden even if they are tasteless and probably insulting to most people. <--- Nuts to that! It's called free speech.NPOV is different from beeing politically correct, it means (to me) reporting those facts or opinion that exist even if I dislike them, even if most people dislike them. Ithink that some not all of the jokes are not funny and should be removed. Helen Keller had sex with a monkey


Failing to mention popular culture tasteless jokes is not an act of respect, it is bad information. It is probably the worst thing a wikipedian could ever do to Wikipdia.

--Muzzle 13:23, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I added a line about the jokes based on the info I found on the net. I really wish someone more in the knowledge would check that.

--Muzzle 15:38, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

  • You could mention the fact of the jokes, perhaps, but I don't think the actual jokes would be appropriate. I don't really see how it's important anyway. --ShadowPuppet 03:15, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Per the above: You could probably mention the fact of the jokes, but also keep in mind it should be kept tight, as people will try to come in and just dump crude jokes like the ones I just reverted. --Shadow Puppet 22:51, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Jeph Loeb included some when writing Daredevil: Yellow. When some bar thugs taunt the blind attourney with Helen Keller jokes he first humiliates them playing pool and then teaches them a lesson when they attempt to school him in a back alley.

  • I'm all for mentioning the jokes, but only stating one as an example, or something along those lines. But at the very least, mention them.

zero one zero zero one! Taco325i 00:47, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

i'm definitely against mentioning Helen Keller jokes on this article. There's no importance to it. Please justify your claim with an RfC. Jokes can be offensive, therefore it's not neutral, unless counter-balanced by another (what the f@@k!, can jokes be counter-balanced by facts?) fact, by a reputable source naaah! Wikipedia rules are not just facts (that there are Helen Keller jokes) it's about verifiability. Helen Keller Jokes can be word of mouth, pure original research , or published with copyrights. The article is about Helen Keller , her life, her works, her achievements, etc., and not about what anyone wrote about her (whether joke or not). Although i will consent a link to a Helen Keller joke website if that's your wish. Or write a separate article about Helen Keller jokes.203.76.245.122 19:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC) rebskii

  • They are not encyclopedic, and do not belong. Wikibofh(talk) 19:55, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

(I'm just disappointed that her dog's name was Kamikaze-Go, rather than Hrrruuugggghhhnnggggrrr. The truth is so dull...) --Eric TF Bat 05:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Socialism

Helen Keller was a straight up ganster who had sex with a monkey. The monkey didn't didn't use a condom! :(( not good. If you are wondering yes, she got pregnent. POOR HELLEN! I'm still wondering how a bind deaf girl can have intercourse. DO u no the answer? Considering Helen Keller herself wrote so much on socialism, a better presentation on Keller's socialist politics would include her own words, and not some obscure quote from her early life. As a recent biographer noted, "[Helen] was very violent in a lot of her political opinions, and she supported really violent measures."

Removed:

She favored revolutionary socialism, as opposed to the reformist socialism later adopted by the socialist party.

From http://www.btinternet.com/~neuronaut/webtwo_features_keller.htm

The Russian writer, Maxim Gorky, met Helen in 1906 and afterwards wrote: "[She] made an unpleasant, even grim, impression on me. She appeared to be an affected, very temperamental and extremely spoilt girl. She talked about God and how God disapproved of revolution. In general, she reminded me of those blessed and holy nuns and 'pilgrim women' whom I have seen in our villages and convents." Another telling incident was an embarrassing episode when Helen wrote a fairy tale which so enthused her friends that they had it published in a newspaper. The story (about King Frost painting the autumn leaves in bright colours to console people for the coming of winter) seemed especially touching coming from a woman who could not see. But it turned out that Helen had unwittingly retold an old fairy tale she had heard as a child. A sympathetic public was eager to see in Helen a noble mind triumphing against the odds. But the reality was that Helen was so cut off from the world that she found it hard to tell the difference between her memories and her imagination. She had learnt to juggle words, but it is questionable how much understanding lay behind the fine sentiments that so pleased her audiences.

Who cares?! Socialism is a sick mental disease!! Why does wikipedia put political things in here about most people anyway? Keller was NUTS. She worshipped Lenin. Didn't TR warn the US about 'Mad Women" (68.227.211.175 23:14, 14 February 2006 (UTC))

Capitalism is a sick mental disease!! Socialism values people more than things. Capitalism elevates possessions above people. That's sick. A mental disorder. Keller was a devout socialist. That's part of who she was, part of her story. Excluding her politics, would make the rest of her life nearly incomprehensible. John Elder 09:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Also take into consideration that it was just a popular idea of the times. Don't emphasize it to the point of POV and nausea. --Shadow Puppet 22:54, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

We have a current Socialist Senator in the USA ... it wasn't just a popular idea "once upon a time." It's an idea that continues to have power and to attract many. John Elder 09:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Reverted this page to previous version due to minor vandalism by 165.138.192.9

This is an encyclopedia. Jokes about a person do not belong here. This is not the place.

[edit] re: Wikipedia edit

I think due to the popularity and prevalence of Hellen Keller jokes, they have even found there way on to NPR multiple times, it would be worthwile to mention that they exists.

I don't think jokes bring much to the article. It definitely seems non-encyclopedic. And of bad taste. Mentioning that South Park made fun of them, for example (not that I know if they did or not) might fit in the article, especially if it raised a controversy. Flammifer 05:51, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
I can see both sides ... one option would be to have the jokes discussion be in some other article entirely, and have "Helen Keller jokes" point to that article, while "Helen Keller" points to this one. Thoughts?Lawikitejana 07:26, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] email message to user avsa

I think the Vetter link from the Helen Keller page is a reasonable contribution.


However, the current wording gives a wrong impression. Helen "lived in her own world" only until the "breakthrough" of communication. The text of the link suggests that this was her normal state.


She toured the country, gave speeches, was aware of events throughout the world, participated in politics and the campaign for human rights. She helped to found the ACLU.


Could the reference to Vetter reflect that being isolated was a very temporary state for her, or at least not give a wrong impression?

thanks,

richard myers

Ok, agree, what would be your suggestion? Hellen keller admitted living in a world quite different from everybody else. See this note she wrote: : www.millicentlibrary.org/ hhr-100.htm . Of course she could be referring to our world also, but my point is that the she and david vetter both lived in our world but experienced it in a unique, form.

Note. Myers, wikipedia etiquette asks you to discuss a page not privately in email, but in wikipedia's talk page. So this way anyone may join the conversation. But feel free to email me if you want to reach me for any reason. --Alexandre Van de Sande 19:05, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Responding...

Here are comments on "The World I Live In", Keller's sequel to her autobiography, from Amazon.com:

(The book) "remains almost completely unknown. Here, responding to skeptics who doubted that a girl who was blind, deaf, and mute almost from birth could find words to describe her experience, Keller presents a striking word-picture of her reality. 'The World I Live In' is an evocative, inspirational, and deeply moving account of an extraordinary woman's keenest impressions."

"she grew to fully embrace her intelligence, her world and her potential . . . wow."


My suggestion for a simple change is simply adding the initial phrase:

"Like Helen in her early life, David Vetter..."


Thanks, Alexandre!

best wishes, richard myers

[edit] Amount of vandalism

Why is there so much vandalism on this page? It seems that once a week we have to revert random edits. Do all pages suffer from this, and I'm only seeing it here because I'm watching it? --Lkesteloot 06:30, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thankfully, not all pages get vandalized like this. Some pages seem like dispute or vandal magnets (Surrealism, for example, is a highly contentious page). I would assume that in this case it's because she was a disabled socialist now most often depicted as a moral but apolitical hero (or at least this was so in my childhood). So given the ability issue, the political issue, and the disorientation caused by readers possible expectations combine to incite a lot of vandalism. Hyacinth 07:57, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, the vandalism is truly pathetic. For those looking for the good in humanity, here's an inspirational story (one of those e-mail forwards, but it looks like it's actually true): Perfection at the Plate. --J. J. 19:53, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The sentence: "She dated the movie star, Kristen Brosious, and fulfilled her lesbian fantasies." taken down on 10 Jan 2006 due to inability to find a source.

[edit] Merged History

History of some of the text that was merged into the article now resides at Talk:Helen Keller/Merged. – ABCD 20:38, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Honors

What does "native daughter" mean in the honors section? Can it be re-worded to something a little more universally understood?

It's a flowery way of saying that she was born in Alabama. I changed that sentence so it could be more easily understood. Bellhalla 06:59, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Movie

she had a wonderful movie made about her, and she was NEVER EVER a teacher and will never ever be one even if she is dead.

hi, I was wondering if any body had seen the movie? Could you describe the scene where she signs out the first word? thanks. when she sings out her first words she ends up crying and then she had a seisure! what a life!

[edit] Recent vandalism

This article has been undergoing quite a bit of vandalism recently. I believe the movie is The Miracle Worker.--Dakota ~ ° 01:23, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Last night I saw the early version of the movie (I think the first) with Anne Bancroft and Patty Duke. I am a 37 year old male. I cried when she figured out what water was from the pump. It was quite an amazing movie. I think that I cried because I am a father of two girls. They are 3 and 2 years old. Prior to being a father I don't believe that I would have reacted this way. I kept trying to project myself into Helen's shoes. It must have seemed scary--but then on second thought she knew nothing different (darkness and silence). It tore me apart thinking about the way her parents must have felt-the percieved hoplessness of the situation. Very heart wrenching, indeed. Helen keller never was a teacher, and will NEVER EVER be one.

SCott Johnson

[edit] Spelling

Helen is written once as Hellen in the document. I would update it but am now allowed.

  • Thanks. I've fixed it. I'm just tired of constant vandalism, but I regret that it prevented your well intentioned correction. Wikibofh(talk) 03:12, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

That is quite alright. I understand you must maintain a balance between freedom to alter and freedom to deface. Thank you for updating it so quickly.

[edit] thinking intelligibly?

Right now, the article says, "Anne was able to teach Helen to think intelligibly." I know very little about Keller, but is this really true? It seems extreme to say that Keller's thinking was unintelligible before Sullivan's teaching, but if that's how Keller later characterized it, I guess it makes sense to say it that way. --Allen 00:41, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Helen Keller in the arts and popular culture

I find this section troubling. It only seems to trivialize the article and Helen Keller. I'd like to see it removed or trimmed down to how she has been represented in movies about her. I really don't see what Family Guy has to do with Helen Keller or how including trivia about Family Guy enhances anyone's understanding of her. Anyone agree? Brian G. Crawford 22:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and remove the off-topic references. Revert me if you have to. Brian G. Crawford 23:57, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree; thanks for removing them. The only caveat I have is about Helen Keller jokes. These days, sadly, if people are talking about Keller, there's a significant chance they're telling Helen Keller jokes. The sentence on jokes that you removed was unhelpful, and you were right to remove it, but I think in principle that a more thoughtful, encyclopedic mention of these jokes might be appropriate if someone wanted to write it. --Allen 02:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I see it this way. Most people have heard of Helen Keller jokes, and won't be helped or enlightened in any way by reading that they exist. Those that haven't heard a Helen Keller joke don't need to be encouraged to start telling them. Those who have just heard one and are checking here will quickly discover that she was deaf and blind. Then they can decide whether to laugh. I think it's one of those situations where WP:BEANS applies. Mentioning the jokes may encourage people to add them to the article. Brian G. Crawford 03:41, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I removed the sentence: "Keller has been featured in both TV-cartoons South Park and Family Guy." It seems to me that it's a) not particularly relevant, and b) not particularly true. In both instances, it is not really Keller herself being directly referenced, but the play The Miracle Worker (as performed onstage by actors). I checked, and, yes, this is pointed out in the article about the play, where it is relevant. A bit picky, I know, but still... --Tellybelly 02:48, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Story of My Life

The book, The Story of My Life, being a notable autobiography, I think deserves a separate article. I'll probably look into it, feel free to contribute. Brz7 02:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Progressive vs. Socialist.

I changed the sentence to read that she supported socialist causes, not progressive. The term "progressive" is a political buzzword that means nothing and, indeed, can be applied to almost anything. Being that a.) She was a member of the Socialist Party and b.) a support of IWW, a Socialist Union, the term socialist is more accurate.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.178.133.197 (talk • contribs) 15:25, May 21, 2006.
  • Do you have a citation? There are a lot of causes that can be considered progressive that weren't socialist. Suffrage comes to mind off the top of my head. Wikibofh(talk) 15:35, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
  • The IWW (Industrial Workers of the World) was (is) more of an anarcho-syndicalist organization than a socialist one. John Elder 09:27, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I re-directed the link...

I redirected the link to Ragnhild Kaata to point to Ragnhild Kåta (which I just wrote -- it's my first article, so any pointers are welcome). The Norwegian letter å is usually transliterated aa on 7-bit systems, but since we're in a brave new unicode world the change seemed appropriate. There's precedence in the Bjørnstjerne Bjørnson article. --TheBjorn 22:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Failed

This is a well-written article, but it needs to have references and citations (which need to be from reliable sources). This article only has a couple of references - and that's just for one section. Also you need to extend your lead section - need to summarize some of her achievements there. Once you've done that feel free to re-nominate the article for WP:GA.--Konstable 09:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article is influenced by the myth of Helen Keller

While this article a lot of good information about Helen Keller, it misses most of the serious historical truth in favor of the mythical Helen Keller and Anne Sullivan that was portrayed in movies such as "Miracle Worker". I have seen the truth in serious biographies of Helen Keller and Anne Sullivan, although the titles escape me at the moment -- I will come back if I find them.

Keller's left-wing politics is one departure from the mythical narrative that this page does explain pretty well. But the page should do more. It is true that Sullivan's first task was to tame Helen. It is not true that she had a "big breakthrough in communication". She learned to communicate gradually, just like other children. It is generally true that with communcation comes ideas and thought. One commenter here asks whether Sullivan deserves credit for teaching Helen Keller how to think. Unfortunately, she deserves all too much credit for that.

The hardest part of teaching in general, and teaching impaired children in particular, is separating the teacher from the student. Anne Sullivan didn't do this. On the contrary, she was Helen Keller's main communication link to the outside world for decades, with several important consequences.

First, it was the accidental reason that Keller and Sullivan ever became famous. (It wasn't just because Helen Keller learned to communicate, since after all the Perkins School taught Bridgman and others.) Through Sullivan, Keller appeared to write kind, mature, encouraging letters to other disabled children. These letters were published and made Keller famous. However, they were also coached by Sullivan, and led to false expectations of how much Keller had progressed. Sullivan did not deliberately plan these false expectations -- any written letter from a 10-year-old Helen Keller would have to be coached to some degree -- but she also did not manage them properly.

For example, Keller got in trouble at Perkins for plagiarizing a children's story. She didn't do this intentionally. Rather, it happened because she did not separate her identity from Anne Sullivan; Sullivan had almost certainly read her the story. Unfortunately, Keller and Sullivan did not accept the real explanation, even though the evidence of plagiarism was overwhelming.

Keller had one serious romance in adulthood that was, according to the biography, destroyed by Anne Sullivan. By then, Sullivan couldn't bear to part with Keller; she was also in a position to break off communication.

Keller later wrote an autobiography that many readers find disturbing, again because she didn't separate her own persona from what Sullivan told her.

My recollection is also that Keller never really learned to speak with her voice, although she badly wanted to and worked hard it. The Tadoma method doesn't usually work, as the page for it explains. I remember the comment that Keller would reach down into Sullivan's throat and that it was quite painful for Sullivan.

Greg Kuperberg 23:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Thanks for taking a look at the article and taking the time to comment. My only concern is to make sure that these assertions are backed up by good citations and avoiding original research. Thanks again for taking the time to comment, and I hope you can continue and work to improve the article.

The book that I read was "Helen Keller: A Life", by Dorothy Herrmann. Nothing that I have in mind is original research; however, my recollection is not quite perfect either. Anne Sullivan did describe the incident with spelling w-a-t-e-r as a breakthrough. Where the article goes wrong is in implying that it was the breakthrough. It meant that Helen understood the concept of a word, but it took a long time after that for her to learn how to make phrases and sentences. There was a long period of baby talk.

Also, it was not just Annie, but also Helen Keller's mother who did not want Helen Keller to marry Peter Fagan.

Anyway, Herrmann's book is an excellent source that would do a great deal to improve this article. (I don't have time to do all of the work myself, but people who are invested in this article should read this source.) For example, here is a quote that explicitly contradicts the Wikipedia page: "Helen Keller's lifelong dream was to learn to speak clearly, a goal she never accomplished despite years of laborious practice." Greg Kuperberg 01:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some facts to be integrated

These sources[1][2] claim:

  • at the age of 36, she took out a marriage license with journalist and her one-time secretary Peter Fagan, but that her parents forcibly removed her from the relationship.
  • at her family's urging, she had her eyes surgically removed at age 30, replaced with more cosmetically appealing false eyes.
  • she worked for some time on the vaudeville circuit. "In 1919 she began a four-year stretch appearing with Sullivan in vaudeville shows. On her tour, she met such celebrities as Charlie Chaplin, Enrico Caruso, and Harpo Marx."
  • she convinced Israel to stop segregating the blind and disband a village set aside for their use.

-- Ds13 16:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The last point interests me. The book "The Radical Lives of Helen Keller" (by Kim E. Nielsen, ISBN 0814758134) reports that Keller (like her friend Alexander Graham Bell) viewed deafness and blindness as terrible conditions that should be eradicated, and both supported eugenics as a means of eradicating them. Keller identified racism, sexism and capitalism as forces of oppression, but saw disability as having purely physiological, and not social causes, and refused to support disability rights. Apparently Keller had been steered away from advocacy for Deaf people by Bell and Michael Anagnos, and had a personal dislike of Deaf culture and sign language. Her support for oralism naturally produced enmity from the Deaf community. Her choice to distance herself from others with disabilities fits with her opposition to segregation of blind people in Israel, and her support for their assimilation into the mainstream. Perhaps some mention of this also belongs in the article? ntennis 06:43, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


A trivia tidbit, I noticed that this article talks about her Akita Dogs, but makes no reference to her Pit Bull, the US postal service even made a stamp featuring her and her Pit Bull terrier.

[edit] Tadoma Method?

It is my understanding that the Tadoma method was created later than when Helen Keller learned to speak. One of the biographies of Helen Keller states this . Is this true?

[edit] Gap

The article goes straight from "She learned that water=water at age 7" to "She was writing short stories at 10" .. that's a huge cognitive leap! What happened in between?

[edit] Pop culture reference

I removed this addition today:

Keller was also repeatedly referenced in the 2006 cult movie Clerks II by one of the main characters, who confused her with Anne Frank.

This was added to the "portrayals" section, but is not a portrayal. However, it could be added to a trivia/pop culture section if someone wanted to make one. Doctormatt 18:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Born deaf blind

She was born blind and deaf; after nineteen months of age she came down with an illness described by doctors as "an acute congestion of the stomach and the brain", which could have possibly been scarlet fever or meningitis. The illness did not last for a particularly long time, but it left her deaf and blind.

This needs to be fixed/reworded - was she born deaf and blind, or did the illness cause it? catParade 23:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

"She was not born blind and deaf..." I think you just missed seeing the 'not'. --Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 23:09, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sprotect requested

I have requested Semi-protection for this page due to ongoing Anon vandalisms. Many thanks to all the editors who have been watching this page and reverting. --Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 20:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Helen's first speech teacher was Sarah and not Anne

Helen's first speech teacher was Sarah Fuller of the Horace Mann School. Helen began to speak at the age of 10.

references - 1.[ http://www.brailleinstitute.org/Services/AboutHelenKeller.htm] 2.[ http://www.lionsclubs.org/EN/content/vision_services_keller.shtml] 3. [3]

Please correct the article to indicate Sarah as the speech teacher for Helen.

--59.92.149.150 03:03, 5 November 2006 (UTC)regards, Ravi also in her auto biography "the storey of my life" Rhinorulz 21:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stupid Vandals!

I can't belive that stupid vandals, just want to post that stupid joke about her driving a car among other things. You should not make fun of somebody like that!--Hailey 22:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The alleged jokes can be deleted faster than they can be entered, but if this contiues I will request an Sprotect for the article. Doc Tropics 22:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Good, It makes me sad, that people can be that hurtful to others, especally those with disabilites, they also seem to like picking on Max Cleland--Hailey 22:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

"It was the beginning of a 49-year-long relationship filled with rape." This appears to be vandalism, so I am deleting it. 70.149.224.195 09:37, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, never mind, someone beat me to it I really love Helen Keller. 70.149.224.195 09:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

they don't know what it is like Yeah, how would they feel if they were or knew somebody like that?--Hailey 00:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit request

from: Biography

Childhood Helen Keller was born at an estate called Ivy Green in Tuscumbia, Alabama, on June 27, 1880, to parents Captain Arthur H. Keller, a former officer of the Confederate Army, and Kate Adams Keller.

to: Biography

Childhood Helen Keller was born at an estate called Ivy Green in Tuscumbia, Alabama, on June 27, 1880, to parents Captain Arthur H. Keller, a former officer of the Confederate Army, and Kate Adams Keller second cousin of Robert E Lee. Rhinorulz 21:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I've made the edit per your request. Thryduulf 00:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Template:Editrestrected

helen grandmother was second cousin to robert E. lee not mother.

sorry about the accedent.

Rhinorulz 21:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I came across this page as part of my research for a teaching presentation, and thought I would share a few of my other sources.

Here is a quote from Helen Keller's second biography about her life, 'Midstream.' It deals with her reasons for turning to socialism.

"I had once believed that we were all masters of our fate -- that we could mould our lives into any form we pleased. I had overcome deafness and blindness sufficiently to be happy, and I supposed that anyone could come out victorious if he threw himself valiantly into life's struggle. But as I went more and more about the country I learned that I had spoken with assurance on a subject I knew little about. I forgot that I owed my success partly to the advantages of my birth and envrionment. Now, however, I learned that the power to rise in the world is not within the reach of everyone."

Helen Keller, 'Midstream: My Later Life.' New York, Greenwood, 1929, p 156.

She also discusses visiting mill towns, mining towns, and packing towns, with the quote "If I could not see them, I could smell them." ibid, p 101.

A text dealing with Helen Keller's socialism summarizes, in what I think is a useful way, "Kellet's commitment to socialism stemmed from her experience as a disabled person and from her sympathy for others with handicaps. She began by working to symplify the alphabet for the blind, but soon came to realize that to deal solely with blindness was to treat the effect, not thecause. Through research she learned that blindness was not distributed randomly through the population but was concentrated in the lower class. Men who were poor might be blinded in industrial accidents; poor women who became prostitutes faced the additional danger of syphilitic blindness. Thus Keller learned how the social class system contrls people's opportunities in life, sometimes determining even whether they can see." James Loewen, 'Lies My Teacher Told Me,' The New Press, New York, 1995; p 12.

Keller was also a supporter, in the beginning at least, of the Communist nation in Russia. From "Onward, Comrades," an address to the student body at the Rand School of Social Science, New York, Dec 31, 1920: "In the East a new star is risen! With pain and anguish the old order has given birth to the new, and behold in the East a manchild is born! Onward, comrades, all together! Onward to the campfires of Russia! Onward to the coming dawn!" Quite inspiring, if you're into that sort of thing.

[edit] Merger request: Frost King

The subject is interesting, but the article isn't well written.

It is too categorical.

It portrays a remarkable individual in a negative light, for which one ought to have significant evidence, if it is to withstand the necessary burden of proof for inclusion in the main article about that person. Yet it isn't well sourced. It offers speculation.

I think if it was merged into the main Helen Keller article, it would magnify one controversial (and disputed?) incident beyond what is reasonable.

I would vote NO on this merge suggestion.

The article as it stands is such a poor addition to the subject of Helen Keller, i look forward to the disappearance of the merge request notice. Richard Myers 21:06, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I was the one who added the merge suggestion. I'm a bit of a newbie, and it's the first merge suggestion I made. I've seen it in other websites besides Wikipedia, though I'm not sure where. Maybe we can shorten it and then merge it here, or vice versa. I am also quite a fan of Helen Keller, and don't want her to be in a negative light, however this did happen in her life. I think it makes more sense to have it here than in a seperate article.--Umalee 18:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I am the writer of the original article and a huge Keller/Sullivan fan from early childhood. Just because she and Annie are remarkable individuals doesn't mean that there aren't negative things about what happened. The incident took place as recorded. It's documented in several books. And, in fact, it had a huge impact on Helen's and Annie's lives. It haunted them the rest of their lives. They lost the respect of Michael Anagnos and the goodwill of the Perkins School. Helen lost her ability to engage in what might have been a lucrative activity through the rest of her life (fiction writing), and considering the struggle she and Annie had to earn $ for the rest of their lives, that's a considerable loss right there, besides the enjoyment her readers would have had. People who might have given them money withdrew their support. The Frost King scandal was a major factor in the challenges Helen faced getting her secondary education and going on to college. Annie was already facing a lot of hostility from people who felt that she was sockpuppeting Helen and that the things Helen said and did did not originate with Helen's own ideas but were all instigated or prompted by Annie. --Bluejay Young 07:23, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Why are there no footnotes, no references, in the Frost King article? How would we know where this negative portrayal originates?
The sources I used are mentioned in the text of the Frost King article and in in the "External Links" at bottom; I will add official-type ref-tags to Helen's, Joseph P. Lash's and also Dorothy Herrmann's books on Helen's life. It's all in there. --Bluejay Young 19:03, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I remain very much against this merge. I wouldn't want things that i did at age twelve not only to be dug up and thrown at me as part of a bio of my entire life, but also portrayed in a negative fashion, and entirely unsourced at that. How about you?
Could we please have some more people weigh in? Richard Myers 21:39, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I would vote no on the merger. The The Frost King article currently is incredibly weak, with no citations at all. I suggest improving the Frost King article first, and then reconsider merging into Helen Keller, though I don't particularly see a need for it: note that there is currently a linking paragraph to The Frost King in the Helen Keller article. (Though even that linking paragraph is badly in need of references). Doctormatt 22:12, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't want to have things that I did at age twelve 'dug up and thrown at me', but as Bluejay young has noted, this is exactly what happened during Helen Keller's lifetime. There are several people today who say that essentially Helen was subject to sockpuppeting, and that she never had a mind of her own. However, the other concerns are legit, IMO. I think there's a better chance of the frost kings article being referenced and better written if it were merged into this article, since people are much more likely to search for "Helen Keller" than "The Frost Kings", assuming those people had good intentions and are bold, which they aren't. --Umalee 21:12, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
(They aren't? Huh, I see lots of well-intentioned, bold people here all the time...) Yes, interesting point: the Keller article would be seen, and hopefully improved, by more people. But the suggestion is to add a bad article's content into a good article. This would mean adding unreferenced, volatile material to the article, and this is not what we're supposed to be doing here on WP. That the Frost King article continues to exists as it is is a mark on the whole project. Plus, as I said above, there is information about the Frost King matter in Helen Keller, with a link to The Frost King. Not every biographical scrap has to go in the main article. The more I think about it, the more I vote no on this merger: fix The Frost King, and keep the link to it in the main article. Doctormatt 22:40, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Since the general consensus seems to be no, I will remove the merger tag. --Umalee 02:48, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I would like to see The Frost King improved as a separate article. Adding specific citations would be a good start. And, removing speculation, and also some of the words/expressions that are too categorical. As i indicated above, the article certainly is interesting. But when i read it, i'd like to not feel that someone is trying to convince me of how awful the episode was-- the facts can do that, if they're supported. Richard Myers 04:00, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
As I said, I will put in official type footnote style references if those are what's needed. I put some of my sources in the external links, mentioning others (Joseph Lash, etc.) within the text itself. Is it not all right to quote the speculations of others writing about this subject? These are not my speculations at the end, they are biographer Joseph Lash's. --Bluejay Young 14:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] HELEN KELLER

In 1880 on June 27 Helen Keller was born in Ivy Green Tuscumbia Alabama. Helen Kellers parent were Kate Adams Keller and Captain Arthur H Keller. Helen Keller was not born blind and deaf when she was nineteen mothns she had a illness. When Helen Keller was sever she had sixty different signs to communicate with her family. Anne Sullivan was Helen Kellers teacher.

Helen Kellers frist book was LIGHT IN MY DARKNESN and she did another book and it was THE STORY OF MY LIFE on of the books were published in 1960 and the other one was published in 1903.

In 1900 Helen Keller went to college and in 1904 Helen Keller graduate from college. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.125.141.93 (talk) 21:10, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] a scary push

When Hellen Keller's sister was born, Hellen was so upset she knocked her sister out of her rocker. She was trying to get more attention. She did,but not the way she had planned. Instead she got in trouble. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.13.45.177 (talk) 04:44, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] family origins...

The page currently says that the Keller family is from Germany, but Keller's autobiography, "The Story of My Life" says that they are from Switzerland. Skittles 06 02:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)skittles_06

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