Talk:Helen

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[edit] Helen v. Helen of Troy

I suggest the entry for this Helen be entitled Helen of Troy, which is how she is most commonly known. user:Deb

I agree. Ruakh 17:48, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Might be premature because we don't have enough other entries under "helen" to warrant a disambiguation page. Ellsworth 22:44, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
How is that a justification for not titling the article with the name by which nearly all readers will look for it and all writers will link to it? Regardless, there seem to be enough other Helens for disambiguation. --Tysto 05:24, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree, should be Helen of Troy. --JW1805 (Talk) 05:56, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the Helen myth

I have removed the following paragraph, which as far as I can tell is not mainstream (or even not-so-mainstream) scholarship. Moreover, the language "was believed to be" doesn't tell us who initially believed her to be this.... --Macrakis 03:48, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Helen was believed to be initially the chief mother-goddess worshipped through the area, until the arrival of the Dodecatheon. Then, she was replaced by Zeus, and her role was demoted and 'survived' through mythology only to the most beautiful woman of the world.

Why was the painting removed? Fuelbottle | Talk

[edit] Dates

So the Trojan War started in 1194BC? Glad we cleared up centuries of scholarly debate there. Would be quite nice if someone could cite a source for this astonishing discovery.

If not, shall we just stick to saying that many scholars consider it to have taken place sometime between 1300 BC and 1200 BC, as the Trojan War article does? The timeline could be given in a "0: birth of Helen; +12 Helen abducted..." format.

sjcollier 11:16, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Apologies for the tone of that, I was having a bad day. My point still stands, though: this timeline is faintly absurd.
sjcollier 20:39, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

The source is the timeline of Eratosthenes. As it already says in the Trojan War article. This is not a newfound discovery but the traditional date. User:Dimadick

Actually, 1194BC is only one of the traditional dates. But considering that we're talking about a mythological war which may or may not correspond to a historical war, why should this article bother to give the date at all? Furthermore, since this article is about a character in mythology, rather than a historical individual, why should we give a timeline? --Akhilleus (talk) 03:11, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
The timeline is based on Mythical chronology of Greece, which I have put up on AfD. If, as seems likely, the chronology article is deleted, I will remove the timeline from the article. If it contains useful info that isn't elsewhere in the article, I'll put it in the appropriate spot, of course.
If anyone thinks the timeline should stay, this would be a good time to say so... --Akhilleus (talk) 16:23, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
The timeline takes the year of the fall of Troy by Eratosthenes and the passage of years between events given by other ancient writers. Mythic does not mean timeless or undated. User:Dimadick
As I already noted, 1184BC is only one of the "traditional" dates of the fall of Troy. Why choose Eratosthenes? Why choose a date at all? As I already noted, the war is mythological, and its historicity is a matter of debate. Helen, too, is a mythical figure, and few classicists would say there was a real Helen. Giving her a timeline and precise dates implies that we can place her in actual history, which is misleading.
Furthermore, I see no citations for any of the dates, and it's clear that the timeline is synthesized from several different sources, which means it's original research. I'm taking it out--again. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:50, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


Where do you find original research? Her age at abduction as twelve is given. The years preparing the war and the duration of the war is given. The years of wondering the sea with Menelaus is also given as eight which fits nicely with Aegysthus only reigning seven. Again I don't see why "mythological" makes it fiction without meaning. And Eratosthenes gives the date most widely used User:Dimadick

I don't see any citations in that section. I see no reason given to use Eratosthenes' date for the Trojan War. I see no source given for the length of the journey back from Troy.
More importantly, I see no source given that says the ancient Greeks thought that Telemachus visited Sparta in 1174 BC. I see no source given that says modern scholars think Telemachus visited Sparta in 1174 BC. It's a calculation that the editor who put together the timeline performed, and it's an original synthesis of several sources. To me, that's original research. More importantly, it's absurd--if you went to a classical scholar and said "hey, when did Telemachus visit Sparta? 1174 BC or 1150 BC?" you'd be told that the question is absurd--because Telemachus' visit to Sparta is not a historical event. Please stop putting the timeline back in. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Check again. That is ten years after the fall of Troy. And the Odyssey clearly claims it takes place ten years after the fall of Troy. "Classical scholars" are not particularly authoritive if they do not take into account textual references in favor of their own ideas. User:Dimadick
The Odyssey places its action ten years after the fall of Troy, obviously. But where in the Odyssey does it say that it happens in 1174 BC? Nowhere, clearly. So, whoever put together this timeline took two pieces of information--Eratosthenes' date and the idea that the Odyssey happens ten years after the fall of Troy, and combined them. This might seem like a straightforward calculation, but since the ancient Greeks gave many different dates for the Trojan War, it actually means that someone has chosen Eratosthenes' date as the correct date, in preference to these others, and then performed a set of original calculations to come up with the dates of Telemachus' visit, Helen's death, etc.
Also notice, since you mentioned textual references, that there doesn't seem to be any support for saying that Helen was twelve years old when Theseus abducted her--on the contrary, we can say she was 7, or 10, or somewhat older if you go with the variant that Iphigeneia is Helen's daughter. Giving a date for this event involves choosing one version as authoritative, and this again seems like original research.
None of this, of course, deals with the basic fact that it's silly to give calendar dates for a mythological figure. It implies that Helen actually lived and died, and I don't think you'll find too many classical scholars who agree with that. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Actualy the Twelve-year ageis also from the Greek Mythology series from the Academy of Athens but I am not sure what was their source. As with most mythological human figures, keep in mind that people believed them to be their historic ancestors and dismissing them as fictional is not clear cut. You have not also removed the dates but all references to the events mentioned on them. User:Dimadick
Are you talking about Kakridis' Hellenike Mythologia, or what? Also, what events do you think are missing from the article? As far as I can see, everything that was in the timeline is covered in the "Life of Helen" section, but maybe I missed something. 18:39, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
No, I am talking about a six-volume edition by multiple scholars of the Academy of Athens, first published in the 1980s and reprinted ever since. Where are the events of her dramatic death at an old age by hanging? User:Dimadick
I'm guessing you mean Hellēnikē mythologia, Kakridis, Johannes Th., Christopoulos, Georgios A., Bastias, Iōannes K., Athens: Ekdotikē Athēnōn, 1986. v. 1. Eisagōgē sto mytho; v. 2. Hoi theoi; v. 3. Hoi hērōes, topikes paradoseis; v. 4. Hēraklēs, panellēnies ekstrateies; v. 5. Trōikos polemos. Kakridis, is, I guess, the editor of this series, rather than the author. Or do you mean something else entirely?
Who says Helen died by hanging? The Odyssey gives her immortality, and I've never seen an account of her dying in any fashion. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:09, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I guess you did not notice the following text of the timeline:

"Helen seeks refuge in Rhodes near Polyxo, widow of Tlepolemus, an old friend of hers. Tlepolemus was famously the first man to be killed during the Trojan War. In revenge for her husband's death, Polyxo orders her maidens to pretend to be the ghosts of the many dead seeking revenge on Helen. Helen commits suicide by hanging herself from a tree. After her death she is deified." Which is a variation of the account of Pausanias the geographer, (3.19.10.)

Our article on Pausanias provides an external link with a 1918 translation of his work. See the following text:

"The account of the Rhodians is different. They say that when Menelaus was dead, and Orestes still a wanderer, Helen was driven out by Nicostratus and Megapenthes and came to Rhodes, where she had a friend in Polyxo, the wife of Tlepolemus. For Polyxo, they say, was an Argive by descent, and when she was already married to Tlepolemus shared his flight to Rhodes. At the time she was queen of the island, having been left with an orphan boy. They say that this Polyxo desired to avenge the death of Tlepolemus on Helen, now that she had her in her power. So she sent against her when she was bathing handmaidens dressed up as Furies, who seized Helen and hanged her on a tree, and for this reason the Rhodians have a sanctuary of Helen of the Tree."

Which I thought was quite a popular legend. Curious you haven't heard of it. And for clarifications:

  • Tlepolemus was a son of Heracles and Astyoche. Astyoche was a daughter of Phylas, King of Ephyra who was killed by Heracles.
  • Nicostratus was a son of Menelaus by his concubine Pieris, an Aetolian slave.
  • Megapenthes was a son of Menelaus by his concubine Tereis, no further origin mentioned. User:Dimadick
No, it's not a very popular story. Timothy Gantz doesn't mention it in Early Greek Myth, which is very comprehensive. But thanks for supplying the Pausanias reference; now that we have a source, I'll put the story into the article. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:43, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
It seems clear-cut to me.
  1. Eratosthenes' dates are not widely used. They are very rarely used, and I doubt if any scholars take them seriously.
  2. In any case, unless Eratosthenes gives those dates against the name of Helen, to put the dates in this article is original research. You'd have to publish them first. Meanwhile, I think they should be taken out.
Andrew Dalby 20:58, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

They are the dates used by the publications of the Academy of Athens. What do you mean not taken seriously? User:Dimadick

Very few people believe that there was a ten-year war lasting from 1194-1184 BC, or that Troy fell on the 24th of April. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, after saying "I doubt if any scholars take them seriously", maybe I should have added (like Alice after she had hotly denied that a "treacle well" could exist) "There may be one."  :) Well, if this one scholar at Athens has actually published a timeline for Helen, I suppose we could cite his publication in a footnote. Otherwise, not. Andrew Dalby 16:44, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ancient Greek pronuciation

What was Helen in Ancient Greek? 'Elen? 'Elene? 'Elena?

It was probably something like Helenee in Attic, and diferently in othere dialectsIkokki 16:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Helen's suitors

I have added a list of suitors, just like there is one at Penelope. I hope there is no objectionIkokki 16:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

Is anyone sure about the (previous) etymology? Of her name supposedly being derived from the root *sel-. As you can see, the American Heritage Dictionary clearly says otherwise. Lemegeton 17:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The American Heritage Dictionary isn't a great source for Greek etymology. However, it is superior to no source at all, which is what the *sel- etymology has right now. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:36, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the "timeline" section

I find the "timeline" section a bit odd. Surely we don't want to give the impression that we can give calendar dates for the life of a mythological figure. In addition, the article given as a reference for the dates, Mythical chronology of Greece, looks like a huge pile of original research to me. I'd like to take the "timeline" section out. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:30, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the timeline section. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sparing the life of Helen

In the version I learned of this myth, Menelaus spares the life of Helen at the request of Odysseus, to whom he owed a debt. I'll dig out my texts and see if I can verify it. 68.39.127.114 02:39, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

There been lots of vandalism recently... Ustimika 19:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

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