Talk:Hebrew Wikipedia

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This article was nominated for deletion on February 18, 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

55 very core users ?! where did you get this number ?! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.132.200.111 (talk • contribs).

[edit] HA

Shouldn't it be Hehofshit, not Hahofshit? Mo-Al 00:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

In some cases the definite article HA can change its vowel, but very few people actually know these rules and in the spoken language everyone says HA. In this case i am quite sure that it should be HA even in the official written language, although i'm not an expert. --Amir E. Aharoni 07:56, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

As modern Hebrew is normally written, the vowel of the article isn't specified at all, but from what I know, I agree that [hexofšit] would be more of a pseudo-Biblical pronunciation, while [haxofšit] is usual modern Israeli Hebrew. AnonMoos 13:21, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

True, but I'm pretty sure that although it is not used colloquially, he is the officially correct form, right? Mo-Al 02:32, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Not sure what "official" really means here. The pronunciation [hexofšit] is in more accordance with the old Tiberian niqqud (orthographic vowel diacritic symbols), but Tiberian niqqud doesn't establish an official standard for modern Israeli Hebrew -- the only thing which could do that would be the Academy of the Hebrew Language. I have no idea whether it has issued an official pronouncement on the matter (it seems to be more concerned with spelling and vocabulary), but if it has, it's swimming against the tide. In previous decades, there were some individuals in Israeli broadcasting who tried to keep closer to Biblical forms, but I think that battle has been lost for a while now... AnonMoos 15:21, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I found the word החפשית appearing one time in the bible: Kings 2 15:5:

וַיְהִי מְצֹרָע עַד-יוֹם מֹתוֹ, וַיֵּשֶׁב, בְּבֵית הַחָפְשִׁית

As you see, the vowel is clearly an A (patakh).

The meaning of the word in this context is completely different (it referes to a kind of hospital for lepers), but i think that the same vowel rules apply. --Amir E. Aharoni 15:45, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I guess it's ha there (and in 2 Chronicles 26:21) because the pataħ to səgōl rule applies only before ח with usual long qames ([ā]) or with ħateph qames (weakened short [ǒ]), but not before ח with qames ħatuph (ordinary short [ǒ]). AnonMoos 20:12, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I have noticed that it isn't usually he in the Torah, but we are talking about Modern Hebrew, and in Modern Hebrew he is the correct form, is it not? Mo-Al 00:22, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the definite article takes səgōl very often before the consonant ח in the Bible (as you could easily see if you had an alphabetical list of all the words occurring in the Hebrew Bible). However, Aharoni has pointed out that there's an exception to the exception, whereby the definite article would not take səgōl in the Bible in the particular case of [ħofši].

I really don't think that official "standard" modern Israeli Hebrew tries to be more Biblical than the Bible. However, it seems that the only way to fully and authoritatively satisfy your doubts on the matter would be to personally contact the Academy of the Hebrew Language. AnonMoos 20:12, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, i think that i have a decisive answer.

Even-Shoshan Dictionary, 2003 unabridged edition, volume 6, page 2152, §19-ג:

Before ח with kamatz gadol or khataf-kamatz and before unaccented ה and ע with kamatz ה has the segol vowel: הֶחָכָם, הֶחֳדָשִׁים, הֶהָרִים, הֶעָשִׁיר. However: הַחָכְמָה, הָעָרְמָה. (Here ח and ע have kamatz katan).

Explanation: These are the cases in which the ה has a segol. It is not the case with חָפְשִׁית, because in this word the kamatz is neither khataf nor gadol - it is a kamatz katan. However i didn't really understand why does the ה in הָעָרְמָה have a kamatz ...

There are more rules governing the nikkud of the ה article. Thanks to you i learned some of them now :) . It makes me different from about 99% of Israelis. --Amir E. Aharoni 09:09, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article needs update

According to the banner image on Hebrew wikipedia main page, Hebrew wikipedia seems to have reached 50,000 articles. AnonMoos 13:21, 23 December 2006 (UTC)