Talk:Heavy Lift Launch Vehicle

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DR's comments prefaced with *:

I removed an unneeded disamb paragraph (no need for it, Heavy Lify Launch Vehicle is pretty specific) and fixed the wikilinks. Remember, disambiguation is important, and there are more than one Protons covered in the 'pedia.

Understand.

I added a See Also section, and deleted a paragraph on the important of geosync orbit. This article is about the rocket, not one of the orbits HHLVs can hit, so it should stay on target and not drift.

Sorry, but I emphatically disagree. The orbits are the very goal of the HLLV. Would you remove all references to the moon from the Apollo entry? Same thing. Goal: Moon. Solution: Apollo. Goal: geostationary orbit. Solution: HLLV.

Also, I removed empty sections. Just a quick note regarding some pretty big changes I made a few minutes after the article was written, don't want anyone to think my hacking and slashing was vandalism or anything. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 15:57, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Um... I see that you've created an account, and that's great. But it looks like you just deleted my changes and put back in the big section on Geosynchronous orbits plus added rocket fuels. Both of those are covered in other articles and really don't belong in this one. Also, as I noted before, you really REALLY don't need a disambiguation paragraph for Heavy Lift Launch Vehicle. Finally, having empty sections isn't really needed. I hope you'll consider my suggestions, or at least discuss the article. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 16:59, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

When people are creating an article, it may take them several days to flesh it out. Please be considerate enough to let them finish before you put forth your own opinion. Also, I find it extremely rude for anyone to take an article begun by someone else and slash more than 70% of it, particularly when it's in the initial developmental stages.

AUTHOR'S RESPONSE:

I have reinserted the material Chairboy keeps removing. His edits are excessively "hacking and slashing," as he has removed material extremely pertinant to Heavy Lift Launch Vehicles. Most rockets cannot achieve these orbits with larger payloads, so a brief discussion about the orbits targeted by HHLVs is extremely pertinant. It's the reason they exist! The discussion of the orbits and fuels is extremely brief compared to other entries in Wiki on the same topic. In fact, many books have been written about each. Brief, introductory paragraphs are both valid, and required for an appropriate level of appreciate for HLLVs.

Chairboy's idea of "brief" appears to equate to "non-existant." He apparently does not understand how important a brief discussion of an HHLV's target orbits are to the very concept of the HHLV. The orbits and fules are so important, in fact, they're the reason Congress funds HHLVs at all. Without this brief understanding of orbits, there wouldn't be such a thing as HHLVs.

It's particularly critical that Wikipedia include this discussion because of the recent emphasis on manned missions to the Moon and Mars. These missions will rely exclusively on HHLVs, and a basic understanding of the need for HHLVs hinges upon an understanding of the orbits involved. Without this understanding, the funding for HHLVs will continue to dwindle, and the missions to the Moon and Mars will become little more than pipe dreams.

It DOESN'T MATTER that both the orbits and the fuels are covered in considerably greater detail in other sections.

What MATTERS is that both the orbits and the fuels are covered in lesser detail, here.

You can NOT expect your average Internet denizen to hop to dozens of pages from each and every article to obtain the BASIC information pertinant to the topic at hand. That's just plain rude, and an editor's pipe dream, at best. Fill in the basic info in EACH article, and provide links to the full information about rocket fuels and various orbits via entries dedicated to that purpose.

I believe that's what's been attempted. Unfortunately, someone keeps slashing the article. If this continues, I will report it to both the Help Desk and the General Complaints page, and drop a side note to Jimbo.

Capite?

That's Italian. Look it up. - Unsigned by Dr1819

Hi there! It's great to hear from you! I hope that we can now make some progress towards cleaning this article up to wikipedia standards. First of all, you probably shouldn't be so mad. Over the past couple days, I have made numerous attempts to contact you so we could get some consensus, so please don't snap at me. Second, please review WP:AGF, as we're not adversaries here, we're just editors trying to make good content, and I'm sure we can find a middle ground that serves the best interests of the wikipedia.

Finally, through the magic of Wikipedia, we can link directly to articles on big subjects like Geosynchronous orbit and the viabilities of different rocket fuels, and can do so directly in the article. That way, if someone doesn't understand what geo is, for example, they could click on Geosynchronous_orbit in the article and see a good, thorough writeup of it. The same is true for Rocket fuel. By putting in a couple paragraphs about what each of those are, you do two disservices. One, for not pointing to a good writeup, and two for increasing bulk on the wikipedia without commensurate gain in quality.

Again, I couldn't disagree with you more. By slashing all content with respect to fuels and orbits, you force others to hop all over the place. Perhaps you like doing that. Fine. Most people don't. It would behoove you to respect that. Furthermore, it's critical to put basic (emphasis on basic) information within the article, while at the same time providing links to detailed information elsewhere. Most people do NOT want to go wade through the detailed information, but they DO want just enough basic information in the PRIMARY article so they can understand what they're reading. This idea of linking everything, and including nothing, is fundamentally flawed, again because people don't want to review the whole 9 yards on orbits or fuels. All they want is the basic info, the first yard, so they can comprehend the topic at hand, namely, Heavy Lift Launch Vehicles. If they want to know MORE about fuels or orbits (this implies they learned a little in the primary article), then by all means, they should follow the links.

Bottom line, chairboy, your hacks and slashes are flawed, as they fail to adhere to the fundamental principle of communication: Consider Your Audience.

I'll repeat it because it's that critical: Consider Your Audience.

One can create a "masterpiece," but if the audience isn't buying it, then it's not really a masterpiece, is it? People do NOT want to wade through a plethora of links when the basic information at hand is enough to explain the primary article. Slashing that information is a grave disservice to the Audience, whom you are NOT considering when you take that approach.

Question: Do you understand the difference between providing rudimentary information, such as I've done with the fuels and orbits in the HHLV article, and providing detailed information such as what exists when one follows the links?

Finally, I'll ask you this: Please take some time to learn more about the process of communication, how the humand mind works, what people expect when they click on an article, how they learn, etc.

As much as I dislike this next part, I feel you've left me no choice, so toot my own horn I must. I've been studying this process in depth for about thirty years. I've been published (paid) in many periodicals on a variety of topics. I've rewritten entire books on a variety of subjects, because the authors, as knowledgeable as they were in their fields of expertise, did not understand the fundamentals of the communication process. That's enough tooting for now. It was my ernest hope that it lend credence to the fact that there was a reason fundamental to the process of communication as to why I included the basic information on fuels and orbits in the HHLV article.

Furthermore, I would encourage you to change your practices on other articles as well, chairboy. Again, failing to include the basic information on closely related topics is a grave disservice to the reader. Do not forget that they need the basic related information, but they do NOT want to chase links where they'll find entire dissertations! That's not considering the needs of your audience. It's not meeting their needs.

Thank you, and I hope you can come to understand why I'm responding this way. I believe in Wiki very, very much, and I want to see it done right. Over-fragmentation isn't right. Readers are not computers!

Finaly note: As a systems analyst (similar to a database designer/developer), I FULLY understand the need to eliminate redundancies! Ensuring a database conforms to the Domain Key Normal Form (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_normalization#Domain.2Fkey_normal_form) is difficult, but well worth the effort. While there are many similarities, the differences between a database and Wiki, however, is striking. A database may be queried by a user, but it's through a formalized process (namely by clicking a button). It's actually read by the computer. Redunancy introduces errors. Wiki, on the other hand, is both queried and read directly by a human. Humans are not computers. We don't have time to click links when the information we need about a particular topic should be right in front of us. We don't have the inclination to muddle through 1,500 words on Rocket Fuels or Geostationary Orbits when the 200 words directly in front of us are enough to bring us up to speed with respect to the primary article on Heavy Lift Launch Vehicles.

I sincerely hope you can bring yourself to understand where I'm going with this. And please bear in mind this isn't "my" concept. It's the results of decades of studies on human communication by the best experts in the field. I'm just a messenger, and one who's seen it work extremely well in practice. Ignoring it would be a foolish thing to do.

Thank you for your time.

I appreciate you creating this article, it's definitaley needed, but in the interest of quality, there's got to be a way to get rid of some of the redundant fluff, and that's what the sections on Geo and rocket fuels are, with respect. I'll put together another version of the page in /temp that I think will take into account your concerns better, now that I know what they are. I'll put a link here for you to check out, hopefully we can come to consensus. Best regards, and welcome to Wikipedia! - CHAIRBOY (☎) 19:08, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

---

Since you peppered your response through the article above, I'll just reply down here. I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with your assessment, and I'd like to make a couple of points. First, waving your 30 years of rocket experience around as a sword isn't terribly on-topic, as the edits I've been making have been motivated by good writing, not rocket science. I think your version of this article is pretty dang fluffy, and being a rocket scientist does not make anyone a natural born writer. Second, it seems as if you've fallen prey to the Wikipedia phenomenon of feeling a direct ownership of an article. Traditionally, people who get pulled into that trap feel that the edits others do to their writing are hurting their "baby". This is a collaborative effort, so be careful not to be a victim of this, you'll have lower blood pressure and live longer! :) Also, regarding your request that I not edit it when its new so you can flesh it out, remember, you have a preview button! Consider each saved edit to be a publishing cycle. The article should stand on its own after each submission, having a bunch of blank sections really doesn't cut it.

Finally, I'm troubled that you've extended your personal disagreements about this article to be a general assessment of me that concludes I don't understand communication or know how to edit. In the end, it's really not a big deal of course, but I think you do yourself a disservice by judging with such a wide brush.

In summary: 1. Just because you're a doctor (as you've said repeatedly) doesn't mean your writing cannot be edited. 2. Remember that the text is GPLd, so you're not the "owner". 3. Be careful to avoid personal attacks. Nobody on Wikipedia is served by them, and they hurt the process.

If you feel you can participate in a collaborative effort to improve this article, let me know. I'm not willing to engage in any type of revert warfare over it, but I would like to improve the quality of Wikipedia, and this article is in need of grooming. Best regards, CHAIRBOY (☎) 15:56, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed version

Hi there! Please check out this proposed version: HHLV/tmp I cut out some of the stuff that I thought was redundant, left some of the stuff in that you feel strongly about, and I think the article is a little closer to what something on the WP should look like. I'd like your thoughts on it, Dr1819, because I'm sure we can come to some consensus. Best regards, CHAIRBOY (☎) 17:28, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi, Chairboy - Looks like we've reached a consensus!

I agree to the edits you made in the TMP page, provided you update the Orbits page to include the following text (or appropriate details thereof), as some of the following is a compilation of general knowledge and not found specifically in the Orbits page:

"The reason for this is that the GTO is an orbit cycling between a perigee tangent to LOE and an apogee tangent to a geostationary orbit. At the point where the orbit is tangent to the geostationary orbit, the payload can conduct a controlled burn and insert itself into the geostationary orbit, where it will hold its position 22,240 miles over a specific spot on the equator. By contrast, geosynchronous orbits have the same period of orbit as the Earth has of rotation (24 hours), but the orbits themselves may be elliptical, and can also be outside of an equitorial orbit."

Also, please consider referencing any HLLV-specific info on the Orbits page with a link to the Heavy Lift Launch Vehicle page.

Finally, how do I create an entry for "HLLV" that automatically forwards to "Heavy Lift Launch Vehicle"?

Thanks!

Hi Dr1819! I don't want to pooch up your suggestion, maybe you could make the edit? I note that there is already an article Geosynchronous_transfer_orbit, would you be able to use it in the text? One thing I'd like to mention, your description of GTO is good, but I wonder if it might scare away non-technical readers who are interested in learning. What would you say to something a little easier to digest (with links to perhaps the more technical Geosynchronous_transfer_orbit page) that say something along the lines of "A Geosynchronous transfer orbit is a special trajectory that is used by rockets to insert a payload into Geostationary orbit (at 22,240 miles above the equator where the satellite remains motionless in relation to the earth)." then your 'By contrast' sentence about geosynchronous orbits. Just a suggestion, but the difference between mentioning the tangent of the perigee to LOE and not mentioning it might be someone who keep going, then digs a little deeper (versus deciding that they could 'never figure out this stuff' and giving up). It's totally up to you, just a thought from someone coming from a different angle. BTW, I've created a link for HLLV that points to the main page. To make your own in the future, create a new page that has nothing but #REDIRECT [[Target page]] in it. Regards, CHAIRBOY (☎) 16:44, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Sounds goo, Chairboy! I've got a bunch of things I'm doing at work, but don't worry - I'll get to it as soon as I can.