Talk:Heart of Darkness

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Heart of Darkness is also a famous pub in Phnom Penh, Cambodia...

Contents 1 Themes 2 Controversial book? 3 Copyvio? 4 Munich 5 Picture 6 BAD WRITING 7 Racism paragraph 8 Apocalypse Now reference 9 External links section 10 Merge proposal

[edit] Themes

Although it is the traditional symbol and immediately obvious answer, arguing that the major theme/motif is the darkness of barbarity contrasting the light of civilization is a hard point to make after examining the book in depth (e.g. the dark cloud obscuring the thames at the end). Perhaps others could add their opinions to this. My fear is that the current state is too much like the shallow sparknotes-type interpretation.

I agree with the above. Not only do I think that the interpretation of Conrad's novel as a contrast between "dark" barbarity and "enlightened" civilization is overly-simplistic, but I also think that it is fundamentally wrong: one might as well interpret Shakespeare's Macbeth -- which explores very similar themes and which I'm sure was a great influence on Conrad -- as the mere contrast between "good" Macduff and "evil" Macbeth.

Conrad was too good of a writer to interpret him in such a fashion. This book is not about the differences between "civilized" Europeans and "uncivilized" Africans; it is about the barbarity that lurks just underneath the surface of each and every one of us. This view is supported by many things in the text, but what immediately comes to mind is the simoultaneous settings of the Thames and Congo rivers, and particularly the fact that Kurtz is himself a European. As an argument about the fundamental similarity of all human beings, Heart of Darkness serves as a stark condemnation of colonialism, all the more incredible if one considers when it was written. Unfortunately, the current article comes to the complete opposite conclusion. If anyone else wants to rework this section, I'm more than willing to lend a hand. --Todeswalzer | Talk 22:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversial book?

I assert that Heart of Darkness is controversial, as stated in the "controversy" section of the article. There are many who believe that the book is racist, but there are also many who believe that it is a valuable classic that helped expose European atrocities in the Congo... to me, this spells controversy, so I restored the "Controversial Books" category. -Vontafeijos 20:20, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I approve of the removal of the category Controversial Books, for the reason that it seems very hard to objectively decide which books are members of it. If there was a notable institution, or awards ceremony, or noted booklist, then one could have a category "Top 100 controversies" for example. Absent such, the decision as to membership must surely be POV. -Wikibob 01:47, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

• Wikibob, there are many books listed as controversial in the Controversial Books category, some of them which are obviously controversial; The Bell Curve, for example, discusses the highly controversial topic of race/intelligence correlation. The reason The Bell Curve is listed isn't because someone just decided it was (which would be POV), it was classified as controversial because of the tangible debate that it generated. In this particular case, an entire collection of essays was created entitled The Bell Curve Wars that critiqued the value of The Bell Curve. The existence of this work is enough to make it obvious that the book is controversial. Therefore since there is no listing of controversial books, we must look at if there is any controversy to speak of in the form of debates, lectures, literary essays, books, and articles about Heart of Darkness. There is a sizable amount of debate on the book, beginning in 1975 with Chinua Achebe, so I still claim that the book has generated more than enough controversy to be considered a controversial book.

The following are published works and quotes all aimed at debating whether or not Joseph Conrad is a racist or whether his book is an important exposè into the Congolese atrocities.

• • An Image of Africa: Racism in Conrad's Heart of Darkness by Chinua Achebe [1]
  • Conrad's image of Africa: Recovering African voices in Heart of Darkness by Peter Mwikisa [2]
  • Heart of Darkness: Problem for Critics by Robert F. Haugh
  • Conrad the Novelist by Albert J. Guerard
  • Quote from Chinua Achebe illustrating the controversy generated by his 1975 lecture against Heart of Darkness: "After I delivered my lecture at Harvard, a professor emeritus from the University of Massachusetts said, 'How dare you? How dare you upset everything we have taught, everything we teach? ‘Heart of Darkness’ is the most widely taught text in the university in this country. So how dare you say it’s different?'" [3]
  • Envisioning Africa: Racism and Imperialism in Conrad's Heart of Darkness by Peter Edgerly Firchow (Book review with summary of key points and excerpts)

-Vontafeijos 05:00, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Vontafeijos, I do not doubt at all it has been criticised by many. I am simply against the category itself, for the much the same reasons given in CFD. the category Controversial books was recently deleted in WP:CFD by the way. Your references should be put into the article itself. There is a List of controversial books which could include it, although I feel an actual description of the controversies with cites is far superior for an enclyclopedia. -Wikibob 13:40, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Copyvio?

The following had been tagged to the end of the article:

Conrad’s Critique of Imperialism in Heart of Darkness HUNT HAWKINS

Today many students of history, as well as of literature, read the novel Joseph Conrad set in Congo of 1890. In our era of decolonization, they are interested because the story is one of fiction’s strongest statements about imperialism. Of course, the novel has other important themes, both psychological and metaphysical. But the theme of imperialism is obvious and central Conrad himself stressed it in a letter to his publisher, William Blackwood: “The title I am thinking of is The Heart of Darkness but the narrative is not gloomy. The criminality of inefficiency and pure selfishness when tackling the civilizing work in Africa is a justifiable idea. The subject is of our time distinctly” This declaration seems quite simple, but it is not. The aim of this essay is to examine Conrad’s extremely complex, and as yet inadequately understood, critique of imperialism in Heart of Darkness.

Most literary critics, not specifically interested in the political side of the story, have assumed in passing that it is anti-imperialist, then have gone on to analyze other aspects of the narrative.

Theshibboleth 04:41, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Munich

regarding this addition by anon:

• 2005 -- Munich has many themes found in Heart of Darkness, could also be read as a variation on the theme from Steven Spielberg.

I have not seen the film Munich, but is there a known connection, or is this original research? --Stbalbach 03:55, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

The reference has been made in reviews, but isn't, I would think, important enough to be here. If anywhere, it belongs in the film's article. Thematic parallels per se don't merit inclusion; I don't know that Kushner has actually specifically referenced the book in his screenplay. - Nunh-huh 04:04, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

I very much recommend taking out the picture and replacing it with this one [4], if you very much want a picture relating directly to the book maybe look for a picture of the first edition, but just taking one randomly doesn't make sense, better than that would be no picture at all. Like this it looks like some kind of add. --89.51.85.78 18:58, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

There is a better picture in the french wikipedia (here) showing the ship (the "Roi des Belges") Conrad navigated up the Congo. I would change it but don't know how. --89.51.93.206 11:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] BAD WRITING

"with the full righteousness of today's modern relativistic values seems not a little facetious"

1. Someone doesn't know what faceitous means (or how to spell it). 2. "the full righteousness" doesn't fit.

"Destroy all the brutes" --66.218.13.28 04:15, 4 August 2006 (UTC) Actually, "facetious" is correct.

[edit] Racism paragraph

Regarding this paragraph:

Although it seems that the work is racist, the reader must keep in mind that the work is a frame tale; it is not the narrator's words, they are the words of Marlow, a Victorian imperialist with prejudices, which would make him used to using derogatory phrases against the Africans that he sees exploited by the European imperialists. Also, if we keep in mind the broad line, separating the artist from the work he creates, we really have no way of knowing whether Conrad or anyone else was indeed racist (even if he was, it matters not against such an important work in the English language). Furthermore, the work is supposed to be a nightmare atmosphere and names such as "nigger" only helps to show the injustice of European exploitation upon the African people. Even in the mind of Marlow, an outsider to such atrocities, it is still not completely in the right with his condescending views on the Africans as a people. A work of art should never be seen as "autobiographical" as a critic of the stature of Achebe is so quick to say.

This is inappropriate for Wikipedia. "Although it seem the work is racist.." seems to who? "the reader must keep in mind.." says who? "Also, if we keep in mind.." who is "we"? Basically the whole thing is original research written by a Wikipedia editor in a conversational tone appealing to some unknown authority. The content is OK but the way it is written and worded and lack of sources is problematic. -- Stbalbach 16:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC) l

[edit] Apocalypse Now reference

Missing reference and links to Apocalypse Now in the tail. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.132.17.194 (talk) 18:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] External links section

There are currently six links to different electronic versions of the novel. One -- maybe two -- should be more than adequate. I would suggest choosing which ones are better, and removing the others. --Todeswalzer|Talk 17:53, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal

I can't see why Georges Antoine Klein warrants his own article - surely he could be dealt with sufficiently in this one? Madmedea 10:10, 2 April 2007 (UTC)