Talk:Headlamp

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
Peer review Headlamp has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Contents

[edit] SAE/ECE

Perhaps the section regarding SAE/ECE should be expanded (featuring more examples of pros and cons). I could try to create some images describing the various light patterns produced by respective standard. Otherwise I agree that the article could be improved in regards to structure etc. Scoo 11:09, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Nowtimes, there are really no more examples of pros and cons. The only salient differences between present-day SAE and ECE headlamp beam philosophy are those stated. The project of creating images comparing SAE vs. ECE should be approached with caution to avoid presenting misleading information, because the differences are no longer categorical or readily apparent when observing the beam pattern projected on a wall or roadway. With recent regulatory convergence, there are many SAE beams that look very much like ECE beams, and there are some ECE beams that look very much like SAE beams. There remain differences, of course, but these are on a fairly arcane, esoteric level that could not properly be explicated without *extremely* lengthy discourse probably beyond the scope of a Wiki entry.
In addition, photographs of beam patterns are usually by their nature misleading, while drawings are not adequate to convey meaningful information. Comparative isoscans are what is needed. I may have some that can give a clear visual impression of the traditional/classic form of ECE vs. SAE low beams—give me a few days to dig them up. Finally, the "This article needs to be restructured!" comment you're referring to was made *before* the article was restructured and expanded, and ancillary articles added where appropriate.

--Scheinwerfermann 20:09, 16 December 2005 (EST)

Also, I was thinking that a delineation of current regulations may be pertinent to the section dealing with the SAE. Valerie 20:10, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean by "a delineation of current regulations"? --Scheinwerfermann 22:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Info added/corrected

Greetings, Duk and all. I've gone through and fleshed-out the chronological, regulatory and design discussions in these articles, as well as nuking a few errors of fact, terminology and chronology. Scheinwerfermann 03:11, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Looks good, I'm planning on adding some more schematics. --Duk 03:22, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Also, Daytime Running Lamp really needed its own article, so I wrote it. Scheinwerfermann 04:19, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Problems w/projector headlamp schematic

Eek. Problems with this image!

The "Light/Dark" indications just ahead of the condenser lens are reversed.

I dont understand what you mean, dark is above the cutoff line. I think the schematic is correct here. Imagine the Hella scematic you reference with more rays traced. --Duk 05:07, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

The shield/shade/slide in a projector headlamp blocks the *lower* area of the reflector from direct view by the lens. The beam image produced by the lamp assembly is reversed (left/right and up/down), so the presence of the shield at the lower half of the lamp manifests in the beam pattern as darkness *above* the bright beam pattern.

That's why the Dark note is with the *above* arrow.--Duk 17:37, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Nope, the schematic is not correct, because the "Dark/Light" arrows are much too close to the beam unit. At that close distance, the beam image is still reversed. I will take some photos of disassembled projectors for you (and their projected beams) to demonstrate. Give me a couple of days.

Would it make more sense to you if I added Dark (oncomming drivers eyes) and Light (road). This will help distinguish the distance (see the lens optic schematic). --Duk 17:37, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

See This link and This link. Scheinwerfermann 04:54, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Also, "solenoid" is the correct spelling, and "dim/brights" should be replaced by "if present".

add "if present" not replace?

done--Duk 17:37, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Yep, works much better now, good idea on "oncoming drivers' eyes" and "roadway".

I've moved the signal lights info to their own article (see Automotive lighting ) which incorporates the orphan Turn Signal article. Still need to flesh out the taillamp section of Automotive Lighting and write up the Fog and Driving lamp articles.

  • Also added info to the Dual-beam headlamp section discussing different ways of obtaining a high and a low beam from a 2-filament bulb in a reflector; still need to add info on BiXenon headlamps (movable reflectors, movable bulbs, movable projector cutoff shields).
  • Edited and incorporated separate sequential turn signal article into turn signal section of Automotive lighting.
  • Edited and incorporated separate Xenon HID headlamp article into headlamp technology section of Headlight. (216.75.191.143 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Headlamp has another meaning too

Headlamp has another meaning too which is a lighting device fastened to the head and used in mining, caving, climbing etc. Please see Petzl. There is link to this page but with different intention. Any suggestion on how to include this new topic? Neshatian 09:19, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] chronology question...

before I dive in and correct the article, can someone refresh my memory? I thought that sealed beams were required starting in 1940, not 1937. In fact I'm fairly certain that that's so, as IIRC that was the main difference between 1939 and 1940 Ford models.


Good catch, now fixed. Scheinwerfermann 21:15, 9 March 2006 (EST)

[edit] History section

Great article with lots of valuable info, but I think some of the data in the history section could be in new sections, like the halogen bit. If history was a quick overview chronology, I think it would help the user navigate this wealth of data. PLawrence99cx 12 March 2006 (EST)

This is Wikipedia, so you know whatto do: be bold!
Atlant 12:43, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] LED Headlights

The article talks about the large variations in LED output with respect to temperature. Is this for circuits with a constant voltage source? What if the LEDs have a current controlled power supply? I believe most high power or exotic automotive LED applications have current controlled sources. --Duk 00:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Various strategies

Smart power sourcing is one strategy employed to cope with LEDs' output changes with ambient temperature. Current control, PWM and other means are used, and for the most part they are effective. However, the extreme nature of the temperature/output dependency causes there to be efficacy and/or lifespan penalties involved. Scheinwerfermann 01:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fog lamps

I reverted Skittle's insertion of fog lamp in the list of names for high beam headlamps. Fog lamps do need to be discussed, and I'm working on an article about them, but they are functionally not the same as driving lamps, high beams, main beams, low beams, passing beams, or anything else. Fog lamps are known only by that name. Scheinwerfermann 21:51, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Interesting; I look forward to reading about that. On my car I only have normal 'dipped' lights and fog lights, as far as I know. I've always assumed they were the same as main/high beams as that's what they were used for, now I wonder if a) my car is poo b) my driving instructor knew nothing about cars :-) Skittle 03:03, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

For a quicky primer on the topic, go see
this site.Scheinwerfermann 03:16, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AC or DC?

I searched the document to see if the headlights of a car uses AC or DC, and I couldn't find what I was looking for.

Apparently, the current is DC. --mimithebrain 00:53, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Cars today definitely use "12 volts" DC (the system uses a 12V battery but actually operates at about 14V when the engine is running). Because of the ever-increasing demand for electrical power in cars, there's a move afoot to raise the system voltage to 42V (with a 36 volt battery), but even then, you may still find 12V used for many ordinary accessories such as the various incandescent lamps that might still be used and aftermarket radios.
Atlant 01:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hidden and pop-up headlamps

I've corrected the language regarding hidden and pop-up headlamps, and moved the list of vehicles with hidden or pop-up headlamps to the relevant article, Hidden headlights. Tomorrow I'll tackle the inaccuracies in the body text of that article. Scheinwerfermann 04:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article Title

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move to Headlamp. Extraordinary Machine 01:03, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Headlamp or Headlight? While it is common for the two terms to be used interchangeably in colloquial speech, headlampis the technically correct term for the device itself. All regulations and technical specifications worldwide refer to headlamps, and not to "headlights". All manufacturers of such devices consider themselves makers of headlamps, not "headlights". "Headlight" properly refers to the light itself, produced and distributed by the headlamp(s). This is certainly a distinction that would not be honored in everyday conversation or informal writing, but we're writing an encyclopedia here, so precision counts. Talking about "sealed beam lights" or "round lights" or "rectangular lights" or "replaceable-bulb lights" might be acceptable in a stylistic analysis in which the devices are significantly only by dint of their existence; such usage, though, is technically improper in a discussion of lighting devices. This article's improper title has been a low-level irritant for quite some time; 193.202.109.254's attempt to standardize on one term, even though s/he picked the wrong one, is the impetus for this requesting a pagemove to correct that impropriety. Scheinwerfermann 16:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Wrong one? Why wrong? '193' chose to standardize on the article name; headlight' MH 11:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Merriam, Webster, and I think headlight is preferable. I could be convinced to reconsider if other sources with significant authority were cited. — Knowledge Seeker দ 03:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Switched to neutralsupport. Scheinwerfermann has demonstrated abundant usage of headlamp; in the absence of anything to the contrary, the formal title should probably be used. I would like to see a proper authority cited in the article explaining the terminology, if possible. — Knowledge Seeker দ 05:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Here y'go. The author is a longtime appointed member of the US National Academy of Sciences Transportation Research Board's Visibility Committee, and while the language of this post to the lighting engineering newsgroup is phrased rather informally, and leaves out some detail, it does seem to contain the statement you're/we're looking for (2nd to last paragraph). I will see if a more detailed version of the same info is available in a more formal location, but this is a start, do you agree? Scheinwerfermann 03:45, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Excellent. This is the sort of citation that belongs in the article; of course, a more formal citation, if it exists, would be preferable. If this is the source you end up using, I'd mention it in a footnote, as I previously described to you. — Knowledge Seeker দ 06:54, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Citations: University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute Library, one of the world's most complete collections of motor vehicle equipment and safety research. Search keyword headlamp* and note the many, many pages of results, all of which deal with the devices themselves. Then go back and search keyword headlight*, and note the many, many pages of results, all of which deal with the light beam or the general situation of light in front of an automobile. Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute's Lighting Research Center, another of the world's major topical libraries. First search headlamp, then search headlight. Compare results. Also, full contents of Hella Automotive Lighting Master Catalogues, 1978 through 2006 inclusive. Valeo Automotive Lighting Systems Full Range Catalogues, 1973 through 2005 inclusive. Bosch Vehicle Lighting and Signalling catalogues, 1984 through 2004 inclusive, which will probably be hard for you to obtain, but you can view those companies' websites: Hella USA Hella Europe Hella South Africa Valeo international AL-Automotive Lighting Co. (vehicular lighting joint venture between Bosch + Magneti-Marelli) North American Lighting Koito Ichikoh Samlip Visteon TYC Genera Maxzone Depo Stanley Electric, these comprise virtually all the world's significant headlamp producers, and they all call them "headlamps". Furthermore, US Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108 always refers to the devices as headlamps and to the overall system or the light beam as headlighting system, headlighting requirements, etc. Likewise, Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108 makes the same distinction. And ECE Regulations number 1, 5, 8, 20, 31, 37, 45, 48, 56, 57, 72, 76, 82, 98, 99, 112, and 113 all refer to headlamps and not to "headlights". Same with Australian Design Rules 46 and 75. Same with the UK Ministry of Transport. Same with South Africa's regulatory agency. So, that covers virtually all the world's production, research and regulation of the devices. Scheinwerfermann 05:04, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Isn't headlight American English and headlamp Commonwealth English? If so, the article should retain its current title per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#National_varieties_of_English: follow "the spelling style preferred by the first major contributor". Note: My understanding is that, while the entire fixture is called a headlight in the USA, the bulb is called a headlamp. Hence, some of the links above are a little disingenuous since they are references to the bulbs and not the entire headlight/lamp. If this is wrong, please post evidence or reasoning. - AjaxSmack 05:41, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Incorrect. This is not a spelling-preference issue. There is no difference between American and Commonwealth English usage of the terms, and the bulb itself is in no country or context called a "headlamp". Since you are making the claim of that usage, it would be up to you, please, to supply citations. I have provided a superabundance of evidence to support my assertions. Scheinwerfermann 13:40, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
No, I have no firsthand knowledge of this and have withdrawn my vote. - AjaxSmack 05:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Tentative support. The SAE spec titles use mostly "headlamps" (please correct me if I'm wrong). My car's manual (american made) uses "headlamp". Encyclopedia Britannica uses both in various articles (it favors headlight in the automotive electric article). --Duk 05:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Correct, SAE makes the same distinction as US Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards and Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standards: The devices are called headlamps, the system is called a headlighting system and the general notion of a specific kind of light in front of a car is called headlighting requirements. Scheinwerfermann 04:19, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support - Both terms are pretty much interchangable nowadays, but since Scheinwerfermann has presented a good deal of citations, and since both the US and Canadian governments use "headlamp" instead of "headlight", I will support the page move, even though I'm more partial to "headlight". --ApolloBoy 04:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak support - for consistency and what Apolloboy said. Though I too am more partial to "headlight". MH 09:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak support - Although headlamp is the correct technical term I'm hard-pressed to give more than weak support because of the overwhelming use of headlight as the layman's term. For consistency's sake it should be changed. --93JC 20:20, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak support, as per ApolloBay. – Axman (☏) 11:08, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose per policies/guidelines, since "headlight" is the more commonly used term. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 16:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Ample evidence has been provided that "headlamp" is the more commonly used term. Can you please support your assertion to the contrary? Scheinwerfermann 16:41, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
The examples you cited are all official or specialized sources, which do not accurately reflect common usage; instead, look at the Google book results for the two. There are 9,450 examples using "headlamp"[1] and 25,500 examples using "headlight",[2], an extremely substantial difference. From a random sampling, it's true that a small fraction of the "headlight" results refer to the beam, but it seems like an equal percentage of the "headlamp" results refer to the lamp on the front of a miner's helmet.
Moreover, I've never met anyone in my entire life (until now) who referred to them as headlamps, and at least several hundred who call them "headlights". I'm apparently not alone in this, either, from the remarks of earlier commenters. As such, it fails the common sense test. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 17:50, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
"Common usage" is not an appropriate measuring stick here. We are not writing a dictionary or holding a popularity contest, we're writing an encyclopedia and striving for accuracy and precision. That being the case, official terminology (as you acknowledge it to be) is correct. Scheinwerfermann 18:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I respectfully disagree with Hit bull, win steak. Regarding the most commonly used term;
  • First of all, an example, "The Bends" has 1.4million google hits, "Decompression sickness" has 330K google hits, the wikipedia article uses the less common, more correct term, "Decompression sickness". (I'm sure there are lots more examples out there)
  • Second, headlight might be more common in Google searches, but not in relevant usage, like automobile owner manuals and official regulations. Also, some of the Google meanings are referring to the light emitted, not the mechanical assembly (bulb reflector, etc...) where headlamp is the correct term.
  • Third, it's pretty clear that everyone in the industry, including regulatory and technical organizations use headlamp.
(Just out of curiosity) Hit bull, win steak, what does your automobile manual use? Mine uses headlamp. Also, I know several people (not in the auto industry) that use headlamp in common speech. --Duk 18:21, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Please note that this was Google Books search results, rather than just plain google hits. The distinction is a pretty important one, since the citations are in things that actually constitute reliable sources, as opposed to random-ass webpages. If you want the pure google webpage count, it's 10.4 million for headlight, and 3.5 million for headlamp. As for the car thing, I can't check right now, although you've got me curious. I had ankle surgery a week ago Friday, and I won't get fitted for a walking boot until Wednesday. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 18:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to hear about your ankle, hope it gets better soon. With regards to reliable sources as opposed to random-ass web pages - I completely agree. And when the quality of sources are considered, headlamp wins hands down. See Scheinwerfermann's links and notes above. Regulatory, industrial and technical references use headlamp for the mechanical assembly. --Duk 19:22, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. It was my anon IP that originally started the article. I support renaming to headlamp. -- IlyaHaykinson 18:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] The reason for headlamp design variations

The primary reason for United States headlamp design variations is to produce a revenue stream for auto manufacturers. Why sell a car buyer a 20 dollar sealed beam lamp when a 20 dollar bulb sitting in a 200 dollar reflector/lens assembly can do just as well, or a 400 dollar hid lamp/ballast in a 400 dollar reflector/lens assembly. The cost is buried in the cost of a car, so the buyer is never given the chance to see it. Instead buyers feel the extra monies must have been spent on something useful, like reliability.

Safety is not even a vague consideration - any safety concerns are completely mitigated by the SAE standard. Meet the standard and the maker's hands are clean - no one can prove vehicle lighting is a hazard in a suit against any maker that meets the useless SAE standard. This was the reason auto makers did not install seatbelts in all their passenger vehicles until mandated.

The additional hazard can be seen in the application of HID lamps which increase the contrast (both spectrum and visible energy) between the head-lamp lighted area and non-lighted area, thereby limiting the ability of the HID car's driver to see peripherally located objects (such as children on bicycles or deer.) As the human eye is adapted to see in simple moonlight, there is little need to exceed this value of illumination.

As city lighting increases the ambient light levels, ignorant car buyers feel the headlamps should be more prominent than the local illumination - as city lighting improves, headlamps get brighter. As headlamps on some cars get brighter, other drivers see the lower illumiation of their own lights, and buy brighter lamps. It's an arms race where everyone loses.

Since NHSTA has opened the door to whatever GM thinks will sell cars, I think NHTSA should allow any amount of lights of any intensity and color and preclude state and local governments from issuing any laws limiting lighting.

SUV are now being equipped with HID headlamps 3-4 feet above the ground - blinding the occupants of any standard sedan they -follow-. The favor needs to be returned with rear and side HID lamps. The only limit is 54 inches high to the CENTER of the lamp. I want a 60 inch lamp to cover from 84 inches to 24 inches with HID illuminance levels. Is that OK? It's for safety.

Aerodynamics are not a consideration for headlamps at less than 100 mph - suggestion that it is is just a styling cover-up.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.245.19.116 (talk • contribs) .

First, learn to sign up and sign your comments. Second, most of what you say is conflicting. You start the section by mentioning reasons for design variations in the US but then you slide in to the HID area quickly condemning their use specially on SUVs but, funny I think most of the HID lamps on SUVs were actually introduced by non-US makers from Japan and Europe who introduced these lights to their domestic market as well as export US market. You really need to get your facts straight instead of preaching. Payam81 17:52, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Headlamp steering section

I suggest a section on headlamp steering. I saw an ad recently touting this feature, I think in a Lexus or BMW or something. This technology goes back a long way, but I don't know of specific models that have incorporated it. The basic idea is that as the steering wheel is turned, a mechanical or electrical linkage is connected to actuators that rotate the headlamps. The idea is that the headlight follows the road better. --Lenehey 15:50, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Leheney- See sections 5.2 and 5.3 of the article, which deal with older mechanical and newer electronic directional headlamps, respectively. --Scheinwerfermann 16:04, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] HID HEADLAMPS

"An HID headlamp requires a ballast. The ballast converts the 12 volts used in automotive electrical systems to the several thousand volts required to strike and maintain the arc."

This is not entirely correct, several thousand volts is required to strike the arc and ionise the gas which then becomes highly conductive. The voltage then drops to several tens of volts, enough to maintain the arc.

62.49.106.67 16:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)Martin

You know what to do: be bold and correct the article!
Atlant 16:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dispersion patterns

This article needs a graphic that shows headlight dispersion patterns. I don't know enough or I'd make an illustration myself. --Duk 05:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reflector Optics Picture

I was wondering if everyone agrees we change the picture on that section? The Jeep Liberty in the picture is really dirty and the picture seems slight out of focus or blurred to me. I'll try and take a better picture off my Volvo XC90 and if everyone agrees replace the current picture with it. Payam81 07:38, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re-name

Yes, I did miss that discussion, my apologies. Honestly, I didn't expect it to be such a contentious issue. I must say that in fixing the links and redirects (which were a mess before I did anything) showed me that throughout wikipedia there was no common usage; headlight and headlamp were used just about 50-50, frequently both in the same article, sometimes in the same link (i.e. [[headlamp|headlight]]).

I have no strong feelings in this; I was going through tool stubs when cap light lead me here. If there is consensus behind "headlamp" than all the links should be tracked down and harmonized. Pjbflynn 00:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

There's consensus that headlamp is the proper name and therefore the correct title of the article. However, the common usage of headlight means it should certainly exist as a redirect. There is no need to track down links and redirect or pipe them to headlamp; redirects are a feature, not a bug. --DeLarge 11:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../h/e/a/Talk%7EHeadlamp_027a.html"