Talk:Hazzan

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
Portal:Judaism
 Judaism Portal
Hazzan is part of WikiProject Judaism, a project to improve all articles related to Judaism. If you would like to help improve this and other articles related to the subject, consider joining the project. All interested editors are welcome. This template adds articles to Category:WikiProject Judaism articles.
Project Judaism To-do:

Contents

[edit] Formal role of the cantor

Article says:

A cantor, more properly known as a hazzan, has no formal role in Jewish law.

And then it says:

Traditional Jewish law restricts hazzanim to be males over the age of 13; the non-Orthodox Jewish movements allow women over the age of 12 to be hazzans as well.

If the hazzan has no formal role in halakha, how is it that halakha sets requirements to be one? -- SJK

The hazzan as a formal employee of a synagogue, or the hazzan as a formal profession, has little discussion in the traditional codes of Jewish law. It was usually assumed that the job would be done by lay-people only. However, the role of the shaliach tzibur (emissary of the congregation, i.e. prayer leader, cantor) does have a detailed formal role in the Jewish codes of law. I guess you can say that the hazzan is a person hired to be a formal shaliach tzibbur. In the times I have served as a shaliach tzibuur, I did so as a lay person, informally, and the Jewish codes of law guided how I helped lead parts of the service. If I were formnally hired by a synagogue as their cantor, I just have to keep in accord with the same set of laws. There's nothing else to follow now that I would be real hazzan. It would be liker hiring an accountant, or a painter. There's no extra religious rules or significance, and the hazzan has no extra power or authority. He's just like a layperson. In contrast, the rabbi does have a few legal differences with laypeople, in that he or she has the ability and authority to decide questions of Jewish law. RK

[edit] Training and ordaining cantors as clergy

The Jewish Theological Seminary of America (conservative), The Belz School of Jewish Music (orthodox), Hebrew Union College (Reform) The American Seminary for Contemporary Judaism (multi-denominational) all train and grant Cantorial Diplomas thereby ordaining Cantors. The official title conveyed by most schools is Reverend Cantor. JTS grants the title "Hazzan," and "Cantorial Soloist." A Cantor is supposed to be more than just another singer. He studies for many years regarding the laws and customs of being a leader in the Jewish community, leading the service which includes prayer chants, biblical Torah reading, and Megillah chants, musical modes of the service, the meanings of the words, and at least in Orthodox circles, he is observant in keeping with the traditions of Jewish law. He is a teacher of "Nusach" (chant), and Jewish law as well. The cantor becomes the "High Priest" on Yom Kippur, acting as the intermediary between God and the congregation (this is his purpose).

This last paragraph is all correct, and parts should be included in the article.

1) Please get a userid 2) Please sign your comments 3) Please quote some sources. Jayjg (talk) 18:55, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
That paragraph is not "all correct". Granting a diploma is very different from ordination. They may be giving "degrees in chazanut", but they're not "ordaining" them. Also, none of these schools convey titles at all, much less the made-up title "Reverend Cantor". JTS grants a degree in chazanut, and calls the person "chazan", just like MIT grants a degree in engineering and calls the person "engineer". Of course a cantor is supposed to be more than just another singer: he's supposed to be a musically talented shatz. Everything you list in the sentence starting with "He studies..." applies to EVERY Jewish man, it is not a list of special requirements for chazanim. Nusach categorically does not mean "chant", nor is a chazan a teacher of Jewish law. The cantor does NOT become "the High Priest" anytime, and never acts as an intermediary between between God and the congregation. Judaism, in fact, specifically prohibits the use of intermediaries as idolatry, so clearly that cannot be the chazzan's purpose!!! So I submit to you that not a single thing about the paragraph is correct. The only part of it that is possibly worthy of inclusion in the article is the first half of the first sentence. Tomer TALK 01:04, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
Tomer, you are incorrect. These people are indeed being ordained as cantors. I think you mean to say that they are not getting semicha. That's true, but no one is making that claim. And these schools do convey titles. For you to claim otherwise is simply false. The professors, rabbis and cantors in these institutions would take great offense at your incorrect claims. Finally, I don't think that anyone is claiming that cantor/hazzan has a formal role as an intermediary between God and man in the same way that a Christian priest has such a role. If someone is making that claim, then I must disagree with him, and agree with Tomer. RK 14:37, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
Merlinzor, Tomer is correct to say that the cantor does not actually become the High Priest! Rather, he takes on a role that is analogous to that of the High Priest. That's a big difference. RK
RK you are correct on that. The cantor takes on a role that is analagous to that of the High Priest. That is what I meant. -Merlin

OK, I know I was not crazy. Here it is written in the book "The Cantor An Historic Perspective" put out by Yeshiva University, 1972 Author- Leo Landman. Page 78 on the bottom is talking about Hazzanim officiating at marriages; in 1830, synagogues "having to recognize someone as a minister. Again, the Hazzan closely fitted the position. It was advantageous for synagogues to limit marriages to the Hazzan...Hazzanim thus earned the title 'Reverend'. The entire matter changed the cantorate...elevation of the status of the Hazzan to the pastoral one of minister..." And it goes on and on guys. Reinstate the proper titles in the appropriate places please. -Merlinzor

Jewish marriages do not require anyone to "officiate"; they are a contractual arrangement between a man and a woman. All that is required is a ketubah and proper witnesses. They can even be effected without both principals present. Jayjg (talk) 14:34, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Correct, Jewish weddings do not require clergy, only a kosher ketubah and 2 kosher witnesses. Rabbis and Cantors are nevertheless used to make sure things are done properly. -Merlin
Rabbis, cantors, or anyone else knowledgeable in Jewish law. It's not a specific function of the "Office of Cantor". And please login and use your userid for editing. Jayjg (talk) 20:03, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Just because some cantors were called Reverend in the 1830s does not mean that "Reverend" is a title conferred upon all cantors everywhere for all time. Besides that, you'll notice that it still doesn't support your claim that the title is "Reverend Cantor". Got anything else? Tomer TALK 12:30, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
This is not correct. I checked with the President of the organization, and the cantorial membership roster of The Jewish Ministers Cantors Association have some 200 names on it, all with the titles Reverend or Cantor (he made it clear it was the Cantor's preference.) JTS uses Hazzan as the title. Yeshivah University uses Reverend Cantor on the membership cards that are distributed to the members.-Merlin
Tomer, you are not quite correct. Please read the new material from the Encyclopedia Judaica article on rabbis and cantors. RK 14:32, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
I asked a number of Cantors and the response was the same. Then I got some sources. The Cantor acts as the lawyer between the congregation and God, just like the Kohen Gadol -the high priest of the 1st and 2nd Temples prayed for the sins on behalf of: first themselves, then the other Kohanim, then for the rest of the nation. In fact there was a whole ritual performed in the Ancient Temple involving a Sair- a goat which was to be slaughtered for God, and a goat that was sent out into the wilderness- all to atone for the sins. The modern day Cantor takes the high priest's place, and on Yom Kippur, re-enacts this procedure in the liturgy called the Avodah of Yom Kippur -Silverman Siddur, p.368. He even prostrates himself to the ground which is not found in Judaism except for Musaf Rosh Hashanah and Musaf Yom Kippur services, during the Avodah service. Gentlemen, ask any professional Cantor. Yes you are correct in that intermediaries are considered idolatry in Judaism, so we don't pray to angels, saints, or to the chazzan for that matter. But the Chazzan's role is to be the "Shaliach Tzibbur" which means the "Messenger of the Congregation." For Yom Kippur he should even go to the mikvah to put himself in a state of purity. That is his role. I find it quite offensive for someone who knows little or nothing about Jewish practice to doubt and remove everything that I write, especially when I KNOW I AM CORRECT. If I am not knowledgeable about something, I will say so, and leave it to others. But something like this I know a tremendous amount about, and its built right into the liturgy in the Cantor's High Holiday Hineni prayer- Silverman Siddur p.124 "Behold in deep humility, I stand and plead before thee God on High... O hearken and give heed unto my prayer, though unworthy of my sacred task, though imperfect too, and filled with awe, I bow before thy holy presence, to CRAVE COMPASSION FOR MY ERRING FOLK. Their children send me as their voice, to supplocate thy pardon and thy grace to ask mercy... condemn Thou not my people for my faults, consider but their virtues Riteous Judge. Forgive us our iniquities...." Later on the Cantor says again a supplocation on page 156 asking "inspire the lips of those who have been appointed by Thy people (the cantor), the house of Israel to stand in prayer before Thee to beseech Thee and SUPPLOCATE THY PRESENCE FOR THEM..." It's talking about the Cantor's awesome job which is before him, basically to convince God to forgive the entire congregation.-Merlin
So, now I know next to nothing about Judaism. Are you taking back your claim that the chazan is an intercessor or not? Shatz is a prayer leader, speaking on behalf of the community, who, if ignorant of the prayers, responds with "amen". The chazan's role is as shatz, but the role of shatz is not restricted to chazanim, which you seem to be implying now. As for whether or not the chazan should go to the miqva before y"k, that's irrelevant. Everyone should go to the miqva before y"k, and many people I know do, including some whose participation in the service is limited to saying "amen". Incidentally, the word is "supplicate". Tomer TALK 13:39, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
Shatz means "Shaliach Tzibbur" "Messenger of the congregation" before God. That is the title and job. You are not reading what I wrote you above. I spent time copying the Siddur explaining what a Shatz- cantor does to enlighten those who are editing. Do not edit the content of something which you know little about. I studied all this stuff first in high school, 25yrs ago.

I wish to suggest an clarification: The Shataz does say the words, above, which imply that he is an intermediary between man and God. But that is not the way that the Shatz (even a professional Hazzan) is understood in Jewish theology. As I understand it, it is a poetic statement, but not understood literally. RK 14:37, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

The Hertz Chumash (five books of Moses) has a publishers note in the front page mentioning that The Soncino Books of the Bible from where the commentary comes, was edited by the late Rev. Dr. Abraham Cohen. Rev. is used in Judaism still today. -Merlin

Irrelevant. The title "reverend", if conferred upon some rabanim and chazanim by their congregations, is not even remotely universal in Judaism. Your two isolated examples do not a convincing argument make. Tomer TALK 13:41, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand why anyone today would use the term "Reverend Cantor" for any Jewish cantor/hazzan. From my upbringing I know that a few Modern Orthodox congregations in the USA used this term briefly; my own Orthodox synagogue was led by the Reverend Battalion (a cantor) as well as by our (RCA) Rabbi, but this useage was not widespread in any of the Jewish denominations. This terminology seems to stem from its use in England. AFAIK, today this term is not used. We could mention its useage as a historical note in the articles on hazzans, but we should not use this when referring to an individual in any article. Its use today is a geographical and historical anachronism, and it can only cause confusion among readers. RK 14:44, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Info from the Encyclopedia Judaica

Article on Rabbi, Encyclopedia Judaica, copyrighted, Keter Publishing.

The function of the modern rabbi varied somewhat in the various countries according to local conditions. Thus in England he approximated until recently more to the cantor than in any other country. His official title in the United Synagogue was "minister-preacher," while his colleague was the "minister-reader," both sharing the conduct of the weekly and Sabbath services and the reading of the Torah. In England, France, and Germany the wearing of canonicals was obligatory, while in France the organizational aspects of the rabbinate was largely determined by the Consistory. Nevertheless there are general lines of similarity which applied equally to all. Preaching, of course in the vernacular, occupied a place of prime importance, out of all proportion to the old-fashioned rabbi who generally limited his public discourses to two halakhic-aggadic addresses per year (see Preaching)....Above all he was looked to as the spokesman of the Jewish community to the larger community, though the extent of this participation varied in different countries, being most extensive in the United States. The influence of the larger denominations, particularly the Protestant Church, was marked.
Until recent times in England it was de rigueur for the rabbi to wear a clerical collar, while the garb of the French rabbi in synagogue was identical with that of the Protestant pastor. In England Chief Rabbis Adler and Hertz donned the gaiters and the silk hat with cockade of the Anglican bishop at official functions. Recent years have witnessed a departure from those models to a considerable extent, and a closer proximation to those of the old school, partly under the influence of the yeshivot and the revival of Orthodoxy .
(Note that this article was written in 1972 - RK)
In England particularly, as in the countries which constituted the British Empire for which it served as a model, it was not even regarded as essential that the rabbi should acquire the rabbinical diploma (it was actually forbidden by Chief Rabbi Herman Adler, who essayed to establish the principle that he was the only rabbi for the British Empire) and the title "reverend" was coined for them. This situation changed considerably, but a student of Jews College still graduates and is qualified to accept a position on obtaining the minister's diploma, which is less than the rabbinical diploma and carries with it the title "reverend."
In all other countries, without exception, and among Reform and Conservative, as well as Orthodox, the only title borne by the spiritual leader is rabbi, apart from the Sephardi congregations where he is called Haham (hakham). In England, France, and South Africa, in which the various congregations are united in one roof organization, the rabbi tended more and more to become a local congregational functionary, the chief rabbi alone representing the community as a whole both in religious matters and vis-B-vis the non-Jewish world. In the United States (see below) and Canada, where the tendency is for each congregation to be an independent unit, his sphere of activities was much wider. In the United States, Canada, and England, and in other countries where yeshivah education developed, a return to the old conception of the classic Eastern European rabbi in appearance, outlook, and function is apparent within limited pockets of strict Orthodox Judaism.
[Louis Isaac Rabinowitz] - copyrighted excerpt from the Encyclopedia Judaica, Keter Publishing.
Which version the Encyclopedia Judaica is this? Jayjg (talk) 14:40, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
WHO CARES??? Tomer TALK 08:56, May 5, 2005 (UTC)
The current one, the CD-ROM version. It is the 1997 update of the 1972 original edition. RK 14:44, May 4, 2005 (UTC)
NONE of this is even remotely relevant to this article!!! It's becoming increasingly (and painfully) obvious that the entire discussion is a result of the simple and pathetic fact that MerlinZor has an ax to grind or a bone to pick (although with what, exactly isn't entirely clear just yet...). Tomer TALK 08:56, May 5, 2005 (UTC)
Gentlemen, I have no axes to grind, no bones to pick. There are simply certain things that I know about in Judaism. Things I don't know about I cannot intelligently comment on, so I don't. One thing that I do know about, is how clergy function in Judaism. The Rabbi is ordained. Sometimes in various movements, the Cantor is also ordained (not with semichah though). They both go through formal training in schools designated for that purpose. Arguments took place just on this statement alone here, until some of you did the research yourselves and discovered that I was correct. As you will recall, some of you said that Rabbis and Cantors were just lay-people. Well, Cantors yes and no. Yes, in that orthodox synagogues usually can't afford to pay the salary of a "professional" Cantor, who had seminary training, so they resort to lay-people from the congregation to act as prayer leaders, since many of them have the knowledge to lead themselves due to their Yeshivah background. No, in that the larger synagogues such as The Great Synagogue of Jerusalem, the Fifth Avenue Synagogue in NYC, Lincoln Square Synagogue, Kehillat Hillel of NY, Beth T'filoh Congregation of Baltimore, Beth El of Boro Park NY, etc...all have "Professional" Cantors. Rabbis are always ordained either with Orthodox Semicha, or simple "ordination" sometimes being granted the title of "Doctor of Divinity" as in the conservative and reform movements. Next, a rabbis job and a cantor's job may overlap in areas, but they are each responsible for their duties. The Rabbi in a congregation interprets matters of halacha, relating to life's occurrences. He also councils people, delivers sermons on Shabbat morning and holidays, and gives classes such as Talmud, Halacha, Bible, etc... The Professional Cantor is the other clergy member of the synagogue responsible for, besides the obvious prayer leading, adult education classes which may include classes on Halacha, correct "Nusach" used on various occasions, Bar Mitzvah teaching, officiating with the Rabbi at weddings and funerals, hebrew school teaching, sometimes working with a choir and doing pastoral duties like paying shivah visits to all the congregants who need it, visiting the sick, and being very high profile in the community. They are both very highly political and delicate positions, and it is very easy to say the wrong thing, or make the wrong decision, which may cost one his job. If a Rabbi makes a suggestion to a congregant, in a matter of Halachah for example, it may insult the congregant, and the synagogue might lose him as a member. Often both full-time clergy are expected to be at morning and evening minyan, every day. Part timers don't. Some Cantors cannot afford to just be a cantor, as the wages are half that of the rabbi, so they may teach or may have a business on the outside. These are part-times, who need the extra income to make a living. I hope this helps in understanding what a rabbi and cantor really do on a daily basis. If I can be of help with more info, feel free to ask me.-Merlin May 9, 2005
I just added it because it may be useful as a historical footnote, and because it may help explain MerlinZor's terminology. We may want to briefly incorporate some of this information in both this article, as well as the article on rabbis, so that people won't totally be shocked ifn they come across articles referring to cantors and rabbis as "minister" or "reverend". (I think some of the Soncino Bible commentary books make such references.) Nonetheless, its use was temporary and local, and any useage of these terms nowadays would be unhelpful. Casual readers would be confused by this terminology. RK 17:50, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

Merlin, with all due respect, the lecture you just delivered demonstrates that you simply don't understand what caused this whole firestorm to begin with. "Reverend Cantor" is not a widely used title for chazanim, in fact, it's very rarely used, and, from your "evidence", never by Jews. That was and is the only issue anyone had with this article. Any other "teaching" you feel needs to be done should be done on your userspace, not in the article's talkpage. Tomer TALK 19:28, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Non-Jewish Cantors

What about the issue of non-Jewish cantors? Years ago my synagogue used to employ a very talented Gentile cantor. Would mention of non-Jewish cantors best fit under "Qualifications", "Complaints against hazzanim", or "Cantors as a profession"? I realize this is a complicated Reform/Conservative/Orthdox issue. Thoughts? Submissions?--Kibbitzer 04:10, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

As far as I know it is forbidden in Jewish law. Jayjg (talk) 04:12, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
The hazzan must be Jewish for the service to be valid. This point could go under "qualifications," along with a note that some Jewish branches (notably the left wing of the Reform movement) have relaxed this rule. Flourdustedhazzn 21:37, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree, Flourdustedhazzn, as that was my Reform experience (but definitely not part of my later Conservative experience). So rather than the "left wing of the Reform movement", I wonder if it's more that the Reform movement considers cantors primarily (professional) singers, and not clergy.--Kibbitzer 17:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Complaints Against Hazzanim

A very strong non-NPOV sentiment pervades this entire section. Suggestions for revision? Flourdustedhazzn 08:40, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Female Cantors

Now common in Reform congregations.

[edit] Spelling

Chazzan seems to be the most popular spelling on Google. At first it seemed like Chazan would win, but many of those results are last names of people. I propose a move to Chazzan. --DLandTALK 18:00, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I take that back. Hazzan wins on Google. --DLandTALK 03:33, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../h/a/z/Talk%7EHazzan_f67c.html"