Talk:Harley Race
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[edit] Fancruft
Anonymous user 12.73.195.46 took a great deal of time "repairing" this article of its extensive "articulate fancruft". Having created the article and written a great deal of what got changed, I figure I should be the one to defend its previous, and now current, content. Hopefully this should help the unregistered user and other users understand my justification for reverting his/her changes, at least for now.
It's true that the wrestler bio pages are full of what could be considered fancruft, probably better referred to as kayfabe. However, that's the tone of the articles right now. Everyone knows that pro wrestling is scripted, and wrestlers are "scripted to win" titles instead of "winning" titles. Going through every single article and changing every reference to a non-kayfabe format would not only be time-intensive and unnecessary, it would probably start a lot of edit wars with the many many wrestling fan contributors who thought it was fine the way it was. It would be a lot easier to simply add a disclaimer to the article saying that events referred to in the career section are within kayfabe. Some articles already have this, such as Stephanie McMahon-Levesque, and it seems to alleviate any confusion.
There is already a group of Wikipedians dedicated to making the pro wrestling articles better: the WikiProject Professional Wrestling. For the kind of broad, sweeping changes to the tone of all wrestler articles that the anonymous user is suggesting, he/she should probably post there. The contributors on the project aren't closed to reasonable suggestions, and a great deal of good discussion takes place within the group.
I have reverted the article to its previous state for now, but will add a disclaimer to the career section similar to the one on Stephanie McMahon-Levesque's page. If the consensus of the community is to have wrestler articles reflect the reverted content, that would be fine with me. However, I believe it should be discussed with more contributors before such sweeping changes are made. --Chrysaor 04:26, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
See also the relevant discussion on the WikiProject Professional Wrestling page. --Chrysaor 19:21, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
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- So, your objective is to keep a "kayfabe"/"fancruft" entry as is, and diss someone for trying to raise it to adult reality & encyclopedic standards, because you originally wrote it? What an ego trip! Well, OK, keep it as you like it, Narcissus, because it just stands as one more reason no one with good sense should rely on Wikipedia for anything factual. And, PS, not "everybody" knows about the real workings of Pro Wrestling, because people like you prefer to keep recycling the myths of reigns, feuds and hard-won championship belts. The changes made only scratched the surface of Race's real career of climbing the professional ladder, job offers, deals, contract negotiations, salaries, employer expectations, real-life conflicts, image-building, etc. But let's just keep that on the QT until someone else makes a decision, if, when and maybe. Nuts. 12.73.196.110 03:22, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
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- I did not diss you. I simply said that I felt the previous version of the article was more appropriate. If you have information on the behind-the-scenes workings of Race's career, great. Why not add it in a separate section? I lacked the appropriate sources for that kind of thing, whereas information on Race's career course as a character within pro wrestling was readily available and verifiable. I think that both an account of Race's career within kayfabe, and how that was accomplished in part through behind-the-scenes action, can coexist within the article. I am not a title mark - but I also believe that, at the time, a decision by the NWA board that a wrestler should represent all of its promoters as World Champion usually did reflect upon a belief that that wrestler had the ability to draw money, and that it usually took several years of hard work to earn this belief - it was not simply bestowed to whomever. Therefore, a championship could be said to have been "hard-won" in a different sense.
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- Finally, in reference to your comments directed at me personally, I refer you to Wikipedia's official policy on personal attacks. --Chrysaor 08:37, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Dropping the Final AWA Tag Titles
I've read two different stories about how the AWA titles were lost after Hennig's severe knee injury. One says he and Race lost them; another says Race picked a new partner before losing them.
From http://www.harleyrace.com/race_hennig.htm:
A broken leg suffered by Larry Hennig on November 1, 1967 ended their last title run. The AWA allowed Harley Race to select another partner to defend the championship. Race selected Chris Markoff, who had occasionally appeared in six-man tag matches with Race and Hennig. Race and Markoff dropped the titles to Pat O’Connor and Wilbur Snyder in their first title defense.
From http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2005/12/07/1343031.html:
Hennig said that he didn't want to go to the hospital in Winnipeg, and rode in the back of the car with Harley driving all the way back home. "I gutted that thing out. It's a 500-mile trip back to Minneapolis," said Hennig. "The next morning, the doctor put me in the hospital, ready for surgery. That was on a Friday. Saturday they had the Amphitheater running in Chicago and Verne came to the hospital and said, 'Larry, you've got to do me a favor. You've got to go to Chicago. You've got to make an appearance there. We've got to do something with the belts.'"
Business was going well, so Hennig agreed, and was taken to a plane in a wheelchair to go to Chicago. At the arena, he was suited up -- his leg was taped, he was given crutches and he leaned on Harley on the way to the ring. "They got me up on the apron and boom, boom, boom, the whole deal anyway. We lost the title there."
Anyone have any knowledge on this? I created the article for Larry Hennig a few months back (couldn't believe one didn't already exist) and wasn't sure which story is true.
Cale 18:36, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Movelist
can someone put harley race's movelist on this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.157.240.203 (talk) 20:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC).
