Talk:Harley-Davidson

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Contents 1 Paragraph 1: Cylinder Angle 2 1960 Topper Scooter 3 Improper First Paragraph? 4 Poor handling? 5 Reply to: Why did Davidson have a garage in 1903? Did he own a car? Was he an auto mechanic? RickK 00:03, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC) 6 Sturgis 7 famous owner 8 Recent edits/reverts 9 External link removal 10 1983 sportster roadster 11 Associated consumer risks 12 Wille G. Davidson middle name 13 RE: 1983 sportster roadster 14 RE: Easy Rider bike pic on page 15 Detractors contend... 16 Is there a V-Rod article on wikipedia? 17 Harley's V-twin engine 18 Help for a newbie adding the "model families" section 19 Engines 20 Random reference 21 FXR 22 XR750 link 23 Henry Melk 24 Harley Rider User Box 25 When did AMF Harley-Davidson cease innovation? 26 Aermacchi Harley's?

[edit] Paragraph 1: Cylinder Angle

'The classic Harley-Davidson engines are two-cylinder, V-twin engines with the pistons placed at 45° angle from vertical.'

I know nothing about engines, but even I can see from the photograph that the cylinders are NOT placed at 45 degree angle from the vertical - which would mean they were at right angles to each other. They may well be placed at 22.5 degrees, so they are at 45 degrees to each other.

82.26.77.82 23:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1960 Topper Scooter

IS anyone able to provide more information on the Harley Davidson Topper scooter of the early 1960's?

Harley-Davidson owned Aermacchi in the 70s so they were italian made 2-stroke Harleys and even a GP team racing 2-stroke twins. Even this were not real all-American Harley-Davidson the article should be revised IMO.

Ericd

Why did Davidson have a garage in 1903? Did he own a car? Was he an auto mechanic? RickK 00:03, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Improper First Paragraph?

Should the current first paragraph, with it's referring to the Harley as a 'death machine' (and the associated misspellings) possibly be excised?

Kb9tif 20:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Done Boomer 03:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Poor handling?

I ride a harley and have ridden other brandas as well. Never tought of it as a poor handling machine. It doesn't lean like a racing machine, but it makes corners BETTER THAN ANY CAR I ever drove

I have ridden hundreds of bikes, and harleys are amongst the worst handling modern bikes I have ridden due to a lack of ground clearance, poor braking and heavy weight. This doesnt reduce how the appeal to there owners as they dont tend to be performance orientated and love the bikes for what they are.

[edit] Reply to: Why did Davidson have a garage in 1903? Did he own a car? Was he an auto mechanic? RickK 00:03, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The Davidson brothers originally used a friend's workshop to work in. Since the business was taking off, the father of the Davidson brothers built a modest workshop in his backyard in 1903. [1]

his modest workshop was in fact a woodshed.

[edit] Sturgis

Since when is the Sturgis rally a "Harley event"? I don't see anything about the company's level of involvement on the Sturgis rally's official website. Are Harley-Davidsons the most popular motorcycle there? Maybe a rewording is in order.

Agreed. Will rewrite it, and also add a new section for the actual Sturgis event. Harley in no way is officially involved with the Sturgis rally. --Mceder 15:18, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] famous owner

Regarding the line One of the most famous owners of Harley Davidsons is professional wrestling legend The Undertaker. - I would have to disagree and suggest this line be removed, or include a more comprehensive list. Jay Leno is probably more well known then The Undertaker? Mceder 04:32, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Or a better way to revise it would be to list a few famous owners, not just the most famous one, as that is more or less an opinion. --Bmahoney 12:53, 28 Feb 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits/reverts

Hey, FYI - a few significant edits (mostly reverts from changes that are at least a few weeks old) were executed at my request by a friend of mine (logged as '70.229.91.36') after I noticed a few 'facts' that didn't sit right with my recollection. As *I* don't have his reference material, I can only vouch for his personal qualifications - he was a service manager at Illinois Harley-Davidson for over 8 years and is one of the founders of ServiceSheet.com. If there's anything in those edits that anyone has specific questions about, I can certainly ask him what his references were. --boinger 15:11, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External link removal

With URL de-linked, so as not to assist with the link farm:

boinger 15:50, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1983 sportster roadster

I have a friend buying a shovelhead. The owner stated it is a 1983 sportster roadster with a stock lowrider frame and small bob tank. The VIN indicates it is a 1977 sporster. I have not heard of what he has told us what it is. Any ideas?

I think you're missing the point of this Talk area.boinger 15:09, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Try asking at http://sportster.org/ mail list.

[edit] Associated consumer risks

I guess I do not see the point of such a large chunk of traffic stats data. Would you add the same information about automobile accidents to an article about Toyota? I can certainly agree that a link to Motorcycle Safety under See Other is appropriate, but I just don't get the point. I also do not want to say POV, but the list of fatalities involving highly-experienced riders makes little sense to me as well. If those cases are relevant to the Harley Davidson article, why is the majority from the same source and relate to officers who made the ultimate sacrifice? That does sound a bit POV, no? Anyways, raising questions to start a debate. Mceder 23:45, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

He's spamming other articles with this *exact* info. I'm going to revert it here and in Motorcycle. It makes sense in Motorcycle safety, but not here. boinger 04:27, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

The information provided is accurate. Pushing it only to motorcycle-safety results in unwarranted censorship of a major and popular article. There are significant consumer-related problems with the Harley-Davidson product line of motor-cycles that result in significant consumer-related deaths and high social costs; while some of these are also intrinsic to other motorcycle lines, the popularity of the Harley-Davidson, and the fact that it provides no special protection to even the experienced-rider warrants clear explanation of the accident and mortality information here rather than shunting readers off into a back room. The mortality examples are true and verifiable, the examples of Harley-related deaths are there to support the placement of this material on the Harley-Davidson page. Everything posted was accurate, neutrally presented, and verifiable. The "ultimate sacrifice" is a direct quote from a grieving police-related organization, which is linked. If this article is reverted, I recommend restoring my work to avoid the appearance of product protectionism and censorship. There is no wiki basis for censoring the article. Preventing readers from easily seeing Harley-related fatality information in the main article would serve no Wiki purpose or goal. If you know of one, please post it before deleting my work. David F. Traver 14:12, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wille G. Davidson middle name

Does anyone know the middle name of Willie G. Davidson?

GODFREY. Serious. :)

[edit] RE: 1983 sportster roadster

The Sportster was a Shovelhead as many people improperly refer to it as. From 1957 to 1985 the Sportster had what is referred to as the Ironhead. It did look similar to a Shovelhead but the Shovelhead was a big-twin motor.

[edit] RE: Easy Rider bike pic on page

That bike was NOT made by Harley Davidson, but by another company who made Harley clones that later became the ill fated Indian motorcycle company (Mark II) to distinguish it from the original pre 50s Indians, or the bikes to come out later next year (a company in the UK bought the name and brand)

A lot of clone companies made a Captain America chopper (as the design is called) in the decades since the movie came out. The California Motorcycle Company made a Peter Fonda endorsed Captain America chopper for a number of years.[2] CMC is the core of what became the modern Indian. The original Captain America was almost certainly a chopped Harley. —BozoTheScary 17:30, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Detractors contend...

From the article at present:

Detractors contend that Harleys are badly engineered, under-powered and under-performing, and have poor handling and suspension. This is attributed to an American pedigree that favors designs for long, low-speed cruising on flat, straight roads.

This worries me. It may well be true that detractors say this, that or the other. I could for instance say that Harleys are made of melted down baked bean tins and that would make me a detractor and my claim therefore the contention of a detractor. But do we have any documentation for the claims about bad engineering, under-performance, etc? Or was it just something some random guy came in and said one day, which got converted into a "detractors contend" statement? --Tony Sidaway 02:26, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I strongly agree so I've removed that sentence until someone can prove the statement - Adrian Pingstone 18:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is there a V-Rod article on wikipedia?

I know it is a little off-topic but this is the most popular Harley model for the world outside U.S. and I can't seem to find an article on it here.

--Unitedroad

In sales terms, number of owners, and years of production, the most popular HD is the Sportster. Anyways, a V-Rod only article sounds like a good idea.

[edit] Harley's V-twin engine

The classic Harley-Davidson engines are two-cylinder, V-twin engines with the pistons placed at a 45 degree angle. The crankshaft has a single pin, and both pistons are connected to this pin through their connecting rods. This design causes the pistons to fire at uneven intervals. So, that's why a Harley sounds choppy. Gm1121983 12:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

"This design, ..., gives the Harley-Davidson V-twin its unique "potato-potato" sound."

But the V-twin article tells us that Indians were a couple of degrees under 45 and Vincent a couple over. So is it really a unique sound.GraemeLeggett 13:31, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that it is a unique sound, as seeing that the sportsbikes such as the Yamahas, Suzukis, Hondas, and Kawasakis have a smooooooth sound. Gm1121983 23:07, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not following you. what does a superbike with an in-line 4 engine have to do with a V-twin cruiser?Rsm99833 03:12, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, so maybe that comparison was unnecessary. Gm1121983 12:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

But they do sound different. The Harleys are just too loud. Every time I hear one, I lose my lunch. —Mr. Conrad 12:04, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Only modified Harleys are loud. With the stock exhaust, they are little, if any, louder than a Yamaha V-twin cruiser. The convention, however, is to immediately replace the stock pipes with loud ones or to remove some (or all) of the baffling from the stock pipes. "Loud pipes save lives!" doesn't refer to the stock exhaust. —BozoTheScary 20:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Modification of exhausts is not allowed in all countries either. GraemeLeggett 09:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

This is the sound of a Vincent Rapide engine running. I haven't found another V-twin yet. GraemeLeggett 12:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Most of the Harleys in Pennsylvania are really loud. —Bill Conrad 16:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Help for a newbie adding the "model families" section

So I'm an XML guy; I don't know Wiki markup at all. Sorry. I tried to make a link to the article on "Chopper (motorcycle)" in my new section on model families, but it didn't work. I have no idea why; the article entitled "Chopper (motorcycle)" does indeed exist. I followed the syntax used earlier in the article, and while the example I followed works, mine does not. Little help for the newguy? (I'll check back later to see whether/how it's been fixed.) - unsigned by 151.190.254.108

[edit] Engines

There is an excellent engine table available that can be seen on the Evolution engine page. It is a bit large to put at the end of the engine section of this page. Should the engine section be branched into it's own article? –BozoTheScary 22:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Random reference

In the opening paragraph there is this statement:

"A well kept Harley might decline very little in value, although regular maintenance is required" said Jason Crane from Alabama.

I did a search for Jason Crane to determine if he was affiliated with Harley-Davidson, Cycletrader, or any other profession where Mr. Crane would be a reliable source for this information. As far as I can tell, this is a very random reference. Although this is probably a true statement, until we find a strong reference, we should consider removing this statement. Tanthalas39 20:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FXR

Unless HD has announced that there will be no more FXR editions, I don't think that the FXR should be removed from the "Model families" section until eight years or so pass from the last FXR release. –BozoTheScary 02:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Why's that? I think it's a valuable resource to have current models differentiated from models no longer in production, and don't see anything wrong with updating the article later as the model lineup changes. I also think that if the FXR model is re-introduced, there should be a lot more details than what was previously there! Most notably, how does it differ from existing model lines (especially the Dyna models)? In fact, if you know anything about the FXR, that would be valuable to put in the history section right now. OldMan 14:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Good point. It's not like this is going to print any minute now. Thanks.

I don't know much about the FXR other than that my father has a '93 FXR Lowrider that he has a hell of a time finding heat shields for. –BozoTheScary 17:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] XR750 link

An anonymous user keeps adding this URL to the link section: http://users.adelphia.net/~infoage1/xr750.html

If anyone sees a reason to retain this link, which is just a picture and some lackluster other links, please discuss here. Otherwise, I will keep reverting to previous revision. Tanthalas39 00:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Henry Melk

See site http://www.atthecreation.com/speeches.etc/talk.mchs.html for reference that Henry Melk, a neighbor of the Harleys, lived on the northside of Milwaukee. I reverted the change; please discuss here if you disagree. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tanthalas39 (talk • contribs) 08:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Harley Rider User Box

Some editors to this article may also be riders of HD's - and you might be interested that there is a user box as follows available for your user page ... --VS ^{talk...images} 12:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

{{user Harley-Davidson Rider}}

[edit] When did AMF Harley-Davidson cease innovation?

From the section Tarnished Reputation, which deals with the AMF years:

The company also ceased to be an innovator in the motorcycle industry, with a design that remained basically unchanged for many years.

There are a lot of things the AMF regime can be blamed for, but lack of innovation is not among them.

AMF merged with H-D in 1969.

The FX Super Glide factory custom was released in 1971. It was followed by the highly successful FXS Low Rider in 1977.

The revolutionalry FLT Tour Glide was introduced in 1978, three years before the '81 Honda GoldWing Interstate. The design of the FLT chassis was completely outside the box. The Electra Glide was eventually moved to the FLT chassis so that the customers could have the classic Electra Glide look and the improved Tour Glide ride.

The basic engineering of the Evo engine had already started when Harley's management bought the company back from AMF in 1981.

Blame AMF for the downturn in product quality if you will (although I don't know if AMF's quality was any worse than that of Detroit's Big Three auto manufacturers at the same time...), but the "lack of innovation" charge seems groundless to me.

Respectfully, SamBlob 23:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Aermacchi Harley's?

"Harley-Davidson owned Aermacchi in the 70s ..." (from Talk, section 2, "Topper scooter"). Shouldn't this be included in the Harley article pertaining to the 1970's. The Aermacchi four-stroke single-cylinder motorcycles were badged as "Harley-Davidson" bikes.--TGC55 15:15, 29 March 2007 (UTC)