Talk:Haole
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The two have their nuances but both terms are relatively the same (with a rich history of contexts used I must add). The only difference is that ha‘ole is the un-bastardized form of the Anglicized term haole. I have a feeling Ilikea has not yet understood, or actually doesn't know about for that matter, of the fight over usage of ‘okina on Wikipedia. --Keevan Daley 18:35, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
An official Wikipedia merge notice was added to the Ha'ole article. --Keevan Daley 18:38, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy is stringent on the preferential disuse of the ‘okina in the main namespace of articles (article titles). That is why we did not have haole article with the ‘okina in the namespace. It's okay to use the ‘okina in the article, but not in the main namespace. This is to efficiently facilitate word and term searches by Wikipedia readers from around the world. It would be best for you to please refrain from the use of ‘okina from now on until changes are made to the Wikipedia policy (most of Wikipedia leadership are stubbornly vehement in the use of American and British English only but we have some folks from Hawaii — Meelar, Gerald Farinas and some other guys trying to defend the use of ‘okina as a rightful form of Hawaiian English). Until they are successful in bringing the ‘okina and kahako to its rightful acceptance on Wikipedia, and to keep you from being attacked by pro-American and pro-British English only Wikipedia administrators, please stick to the status quo. With that said, since the information you're bringing onto this article is so integral to the understanding of the haole article we have already, please edit the haole article we have with the information you hope to add on this new page you created. Thanks. --Keevan Daley 17:41, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Hi Keevan,I am not sure how to "merge" the two pages. But I do understatnd what you are saying. It was not my intent to make it an okina issue. What worried me was that if I tried to contribute to the "Haole" Article, my efforts may be erased. So I started another article that I hoped to incorporate the "Captain Cook" part of that article into the "History section" of the outlined article I was doing and then have it under the heading without an okina. Please advise. Do you suggest I type all of what I started under "Ha'ole" into the "Haole" and then expand upon that Article? I will try that then. What I wish to accomplish is to have all the facts, truth and history of what is in essence a troubling word, especially here in Hawaii and I do not want any misunderstanding or incorrect facts to be stated on Wikipedia. The word "haole" has been changed over the years and went from an original meaning and translation to something that has become racially charged. Much thanks, and apologies-still learning Wikipedia newbie IlikeaIlikea
To whomever #24.205.39.219 is,
Just as I feared, my efforts to contribute to this particular article would be erased without so much as a word or reason why. I learned, experienced and lived this word. It is a part of my heritage (Hawaiian) and it is a part of my home (Hawaii). Please do not wipe out the efforts of someone else, especially when it is backed by experience, research and facts. We cannot have separate articles about this word, hence it has to be merged or completed as one.
Ilikea 22:54, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)Ilikea
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[edit] Folk etymology
Ilikea, something seems to be wrong with the server if it is listing authors by IP rather than username. I was the one who wiped out the old article, and I was the one who wiped out your attempt to restore it.
You may be part-Hawaiian and you may have grown up in the islands, but that does NOT give you the authority to propagate folk etymologies as fact. There is not one reputable Hawaiian linguist who would accept the "breathless" derivation. Ole is not 'ole. FANG is not NOT. Only someone who didn't SPEAK Hawaiian, and had read the word in the old missionary spelling without kahako or 'okina, would invent that derivation.
I won't re-elaborate the article until I'm sure that you're not going to wipe out my efforts again.
I'm also going to be erasing any usages of kanaka maoli (or adding kanaka 'oiwi) and removing any references to Huna as a Hawaiian religion. Both of those are misapprehensions as well. I have rewritten the Huna article, the Polynesian mythology article, and other such areas.
Since I am devoted to scientific eradication of some of your cherished beliefs, we seem doomed to butt heads. I live in Honolulu, in Makiki, and I'd be glad to meet you so that we could have it out face to face rather than playing edit war. It would relieve the Wikipedia servers. Email me at lofstrom@lava.net if you think this might be a good idea.
Zora 03:44, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Zora, we do know for a fact that in our oral traditions, "haole" was used in a chant of Paumakua who lived 29 generations before Kamehameha. So we're talking about 1178 A.D. that HAOLE has been used referring to those who didn't follow protocols or seen as a foreigner. Whether how exactly it was pronounced, either ha'ole (lengthened A or not) or it began merging to where the 'okina was dropped (my guess is that it's a recent invention) can be debated, but you really need to stop undermining our oral history, a habit you tend to do a lot here on Wikipedia. Mamoahina 00:45, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Kanaka?
Can someone tell me why kanaka redirects here.
I come from Australia and Kanaka is a name given to the peoples blackbirded from Polynesia and the South Sea Islands to work in sugar fields. It is not a derogatory name (AFAIK) and is still used today as "Kanaka trails" still exist in some parts of the landscape.
Can someone explain the Hawaiin relationship so I do not lose it when I create the article for Kanaka/Kanaka trail (probably not for a month).--ZayZayEM 05:45, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Hmmm. I don't know why kanaka redirects here either.
I've run into the word 'kanaka' a fair bit in my readings of Hawaiian history and it usually seemed to have a negative connotation when used by English speakers. "He's just a kanaka." "What else can you expect from kanakas?" In Hawaiian, of course, it just means 'man'.
When current Hawaiian speakers use the word as a term for Hawaiian natives, they say "kanaka maoli", true man, or "kanaka 'oiwi", original/native man. Militant Hawaiians tend to use the first term and people devoted to reviving Hawaiian culture rather than engaging in politics tend to use the second. (As far as I know. I'm not hanging out much with political types these days.)
I think you should kill the redirect. I had completely forgotten about the older usage of "kanaka" in Hawai'i and I should probably add it to the haole article. You might want to add a link, however. Zora 07:04, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Change to definition of kama'aina haole?
Someone without a username changed the entry for kamaaina haole to read something like "someone born on the mainland who has lived here for a long time". So far as I know (living in Hawai'i for thirty years), I'm not a kama'aina and never will be, unless someone is feeling generous. You have to be born and raised in Hawai'i. That's the minimal meaning, I've been given to understand. The maximal meaning is missionary descendents.
That's different from the ADVERTISING usage of kama'aina, which merely means Hawai'i resident and entitled to discounts. Of course, the TV ads show completely stereotypical local people as kama'ainas ...
Will the someone without a usename discuss the changes here? Until then, I've changed the article back.
OR, we could just post both meanings if more than one person vouches for each. Zora 18:18, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Kama'aina Haole
I just noticed that Kama'aina Haole is on there. I have never in my 3 decades of speaking Hawaiian ever heard that term. I called relatives and emailed friends on O'ahu to ask if they ever heard such a term, and their response is no. I asked relatives on Molokai and they were just confused. I emailed relatives on Maui and the Big Island but no response from them yet. In all instances, I never told them the definition written here, but only asked them if they heard of it.
Anyone born in the Hawaiian Kingdom were automatically Hawaiian subjects, regardless of ethnicity. Hawaiian statute provides that any person born within the territorial jurisdiction of the Hawaiian Kingdom of either Hawaiian subject parent(s) or Alien parents acquires Hawaiian citizenship at birth. This of course was prior to 1898.
If you think about it, if there is kama'aina haole to specify the Haole descendants of missionaries, why wouldn't there be one for all the other ethnicities? It seems rather absurd to me.
I am guessing that someone recently coined this term and this is definitely not colloquially. I'd opt to remove this section. Too many introduced terms that really hasn't taken to the locals at least not yet. Besides, people tend to use "local" more than they do "kama'aina" since "kama'aina" tend to refer to rates.
Mamoahina 15:10, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Interesting how experiences differ. I've heard this term frequently. Perhaps because I'm haole, but will never be a kama'aina haole. I've also seen it in older published material. Zora 20:46, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
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- FWIW, I never heard it either. "Local haole" was used to refer to any haole person born and raised in the islands, not a descendent of missionaries, but it wasn't used very often.
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- Also, I added a note about the Portugese since most people considered them local rather than haole. KarlM 21:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Useful note re Pordagee :) I did some copyediting.
Since everyone thinks I'm nuts with the kama'aina haole being missionary blood thing, let's remove it. I certainly haven't heard it lately. I came to the islands thirty years ago, and I believe I heard it then, but it's possible that I was mistaken, or misunderstanding. Zora 21:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] mythology
I see this article listed under Hawaiian mythology is it correct?
- Good question. No, I don't think the Hawaiian and pidgin word haole is a myth <g> Thanks for your work on the mythology. Zora 19:53, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] haiku for July 6
Black Hawaiiian day
Bayonet Constitution
outsiders sieze pow'r
is this an appropriate use of the term "Haole?" KevinOB 6 July 2005 22:27 (UTC)
[edit] Pronunciation guide
Someone put up a notice in the article saying that a pronunciation guide was needed. I removed the notice, but I'm re-adding it here. I'm not sure how best to explain pronunciation. Most often I hear it in a dipthongized form as "howlie". However, I know that the proper pronunciation does not run the vowels together, but keeps them short and distinct, as ha-o-le, with the proper Hawaiian pronunciation of the vowels, accent on penulimate syllable --right? Do we need IPA transliteration of both forms? How to explain both forms? I'd appreciate some help here. Zora 00:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Racist word?
I'd like to argue that haole is not a racist word. It matters on the way it's being used, as well as the adjective before the word. Just as how "Kanaka" was a negative word to describe us natives, it mattered on how people used it (Hawaiians describe themselves as Kanaka). I know that, especially in the University system where most professors are haole, the word is used (by haoles I might add) merely as a descriptive term to describe a person as not being born and raised here. When I use the word, it's not meant to offend a person, especially not a particular race. However, I do know it has been part of malicious statements- but, it usually is not meant to target a people, rather a specific individual. And even under those circumstances, the derogative word is usually the word before the phrase- such as, "stupid" or the "F"-word.
- I'm a haole, lived Hawai'i thirty years, and I can tell when haole is being used as a descriptor and when it's being used as a swear word. Zora 05:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Is it true that haole can mean a person who is white or foreign? Is it also true that haole is used with the previous defination in a dirisive manner? Is it true that racism includes being discriminatory toward someone because of their skin color or their place of birth? (Go ahead and look it up) How can it be said that haole is not a racist term?
As far as the derogatory word being before the phrase, people used have made that argument before with the use of the word nigger. For some reason Hawaiians are exempt from being called racist. Stupid Nigger or "F"-word Nigger is equivalent to Stupid Haole or "F"-word Haole.
Zora, just because you have accepted being called a haole, doesn't mean that it validates your argument that haole is not a racist term. Many black people accepted being called nigger for years. In fact, nigger quite often was used as a descriptor. Does that make the term not racist?
Anon, you should take a username and sign your posts, which you do by adding four tildes (~~~~) at the end. You may feel strongly that haole is racist, but I don't know anyone else who does. Can you document your claims? Are there any published works making that claim? If you can come up with quotes from reliable sources, we could add them. Zora 02:10, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
When making a wiki post is it a requirement for the claim to be documented in a a published work? If a claim is not in a published work is the claim consequently invalid? Additionally, what are considered "reliable sources"? Isn't "reliable" a subjective term. Who decides what is a reliable source? What makes your sources more reliable then mine?
- See WP:RS. Actually, this article has been in violation of that policy for a long time; it needs to be brought up to snuff. Editors who are Hawai'i residents have been writing what they know. There's been remarkably little dispute, except on matters related to Hawaiian sovereignty and Huna. It would be better to source many statements, if we could possibly find books or articles on the topic. However, the fact that many Hawai'i-based editors, who have lived in the island for many years, or for their whole lives, agree on statements is, I think, a good argument for their reliability. You are criticizing, but you won't take a username or reveal anything about yourself, which does cast doubt on your claims that haole is a racist term. How would you know? How long have you lived in Hawai'i? I will agree that some locals are prejudiced against haoles -- however, that doesn't make the pidgin term a slur. I could be be prejudiced against African-Americans, and make slighting remarks about African-Americans ... all that would prove would be that I was a bigot, not that "African-American" is a slur.
- So let's both look for sources we can cite, OK? Zora 21:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I would like to say that how words are used in Hawai'i vary a lot from place to place. I'm from the Big Island, but currently living on O'ahu and yes, terms do have different meanings. Haole is used derogatory where I am from, altho not always maliciously (I've had it used patronizingly to me). To note: I look really haole, but lived my whole life in Hawai'i. As for Kama'aina haole, I have never heard that term. In 'The Historical Background of Makeshift Language and Regional Dialect in Hawaii' by John E. Reinecke it says: "The Haoles comprise most of the 'Other Caucasions' of the censs, but they are not identical with that category. The Haoles as a group occupy a preferred position in Hawaii. It is considered beneath thier dignity to do unskilled labor on a plantation." As for the reliability of this article, we used it as part of the text book for Linguisitics in Hawaii. Other nationalities listed (besides 'haole') include rissians, scandivations, and germans. 66.8.194.128 00:37, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
