Talk:Hamilton, Ontario

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Contents

[edit] Verifiability and Citing Sources

Hamilton is a great city. It's wonderful that so many people contributed since 2001 to make this article full of information. The problem is, 90% of the content is unsourced. It's actually kind of scary to think of it. We have all this information collected, but any editor could swing by, dispute and delete it. I propose we assign people to the various sections and sub articles to clean up and verify the statements. Please put the section and sign your name below if you are interested. When you have finished, please remove your name. Alan.ca 19:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

  • List of Hamilton, Ontario Politicians Alan.ca 19:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Alan, I have alot of the source(s) available for the stuff I added to the Hamilton and related pages...it's just trying to figure out how to attach links to the source(s) to verify the statements like you've started to do already. great job in "raising the bar" with the Hamilton pages. some of the books I've used for sources I don't have the ISBN numbers for. I've also used Hamilton Spectator newspaper articles as a source. Nhl4hamilton 08:47, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good man. My goal is to take all the unsourced text and dump it in sub articles. Then work through each sub article citing atleast 4 sources for each sub. Then we can summarize the subs on the main article using the referenced statements from the subs. There is so much unsourced info in some of these sections, we may just have to cut a lot of it out. I think a good rule of thumb is that ideally each paragraph should have atleast one source. Alan.ca 07:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sports

Mike Weir did not win the 2003 Canadian Open. Edited.

Would have been sweet if he did. - RoyBoy [∞]

Thanks to whoever added to that famous athletes from Hamilton bit. I started it a while ago, and realized it was really skimpy, but now it looks great. Just another way of showing the rest of Canada that Hamilton isn't that bad GSMalette 20:31, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

My pleasureNhl4hamilton 08:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NHL Ambitions

  • As of 2006, no NHL team calls Hamilton its home. But there might be a group in Hamilton that is interested in buying the NHL's Pittsburgh Penguins and moving the team to Hamilton. Details in the Pittsburgh media are mostly absent. But one of six suitors for the team is rumored to be from Hamilton. Can anyone tell us more? Rauterkus 14:48, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Isn't it just that? A rumor? GSMalette 08:13, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

    • The rumor played out to be true. The NHL's Pittsburgh Penguins have a new owner and he is from Hamilton, ONT, Canada. The Penguins are going to stay put, for now, it seems. The casino gambling deal expected in December, 2006, will impact the team one way or another, we all expect. Rauterkus 03:29, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Jim Balsillie is NOT from Hamilton. He resides in Waterloo Ontario which is 30-minutes west of Hamilton. He was born in Peterborough Ontario. Speculation also has it that the Penguins move out of Pittsburgh they would play out of Hamilton's Copps Coliseum for the first couple of seasons while a new rink is being built in his hometown of Waterloo. The only real connection that Jim Balsillie has to Hamilton is his wife is a Hamiltonian and that is it. Nhl4hamilton
  • Breaking news Hamilton's slim dreams for an NHL team have evaporated again after an agent representing a Canadian billionaire interested in purchasing an NHL team asked the city to end its agreement to use Copps Coliseum as a venue. Dundas Star News. If anyone can find a better source of this information we should probably include it somewhere in a related article section. Alan.ca 09:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm expecting to see this story in tomorrow's (Monday-January-22-2007) edition of the Hamilton Spectator. As soon as I get a copy of the article from the Spec I will add the information in the Sports section. As a side bar, I personally believe Jim Balsillie will want to use the Air Canada Centre for the Pens. 2 NHL clubs under one roof. He pays the Maple leafs for the rent and the Pens also get covered on Leafs TV. It wouldn't be the first time that 2-sports teams shared the same venue. Example: San Siro Stadium in Italy is home to AC Milan and Inter Milan; of course that is just speculation on my part. What is not speculation however is the fact that The NBA Toronto Raptors basketball club (who are also owned by the Maple Leafs organization) had their pre-season training camp in Waterloo, Ontario at Jim Balsillie's RIM Park. It's pretty obvious from my vantage point that that both parties (Jim Balsillie and Maple Leafs) have talked already. Nhl4hamilton 10:50, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Changed Demographics Section

Rewrote and edited some of the less encyclopedic/rougher portions of the demographics section. (Some of the hard-to-substantiate statements and "historical information" were removed.)

Eventually, the Hamilton Demographics section may need a section of it's own (like the one for Toronto). Also, some of the demographic information that I removed could be transplanted into a "History of Hamilton" section.... for example:

"Ever since the 1800's and early 1900's, the city of Hamilton had massive increase in population mostly due to British and Irish settlers. However, large waves of other Europeans came in due to the world wars as well as economic prospects, in the burgeoning steel industry."

Still needs more work though.

--P-Chan 07:36, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

  • The Demographic section does not have population figures in Hamilton for people of Portuguese background/heritage. I was told once that there's something like 20,000 in Hamilton city but that's not the official number. I would like to see the numbers for Portuguese people in Hamilton posted up I figure they would be in the top 6 or 7 on the list that we have on our Hamilton page.Nhl4hamilton 08:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like a great idea Nhl, but we need to have a cited source for our stats. I'd like to see this article reach feature status, but that can't happen if we don't satisfy wp:v. Alan.ca 09:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The Demographic table does not cite it's source either, furthermore the Canadian numbers are incomplete. Nhl4hamilton 09:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Looks like someone was trying to mess up the Hamilton Demographic table...they had "Canadian" as one of the categories.Nhl4hamilton 08:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be an excessive amount of self-depricating language used in this article. (Playing on Hamilton's blue collared image). While I agree this should be acknowledged, I think some of the descriptions are going overboard.

--P-Chan 23:59, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Considering Greater Toronto's phenominal growth rate, and resulting sprawl,would 'nt Hamilton be considered a suburb now.After all,Hamilton is as close to Toronto as Brampton or New Market.Hamilton may have been it's own city at one time(for lack of better words), however it's been swallowed up by T.O.'S urban sprawl and as a result is smaller than say Brampton or Missasaga

--

Hamilton is no where near a suburb of Hamilton. In fact, Hamilton, is expanding phenominally to the point where Burlington, Caledonia and St. catharines are considered burbs.


[edit] City neighbourhoods

question: how valid are the neighbourhoods listed in the section? i'm pretty sure Hamilton does not have a Chinatown...it has a vietnamese/chinese supermarket near Sir John A. and a few more spread sporadically throughout/near downtown...and it would be great if someone could correctly fill in the city neighbourhoods for the schools at Hamilton-Wentworth District School Board. Thanks for reply in advance :)zeChinaman 02:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)



[edit] Sections that might need their own article

I have been branching off the huge tome sections to their own articles. It would be helpful if someone would write summaries of the detached pages in the main article. Further, the branched articles are going to need cited sources or someone is going to come along and flag them for deletion. See Verifiability. Alan.ca 05:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC) This article is way to lengthy, it's even larger than the [Toronto] article, I'm sure we would have normal-sized articles on:

  • Demographics - This section is good as it is, though having an article titled Demographics of Hamilton, Ontario can be sufficient. We can use Hamilton's Comunity profile kindly given to us by Statistics Canada.
  • Attractions - All I can say is that this attractions section is clearly not attractive. The section should be called Culture which could contain sub-sections: Sports, Art, Mueseums, Media and "Points of interest (Replacing "attractions")" is ample. Giving an introduction for each, then a few can be divided into its own seperate article. Probably talk about the Warplane heritage and McMaster (and give a picture of it too), seperate articles: Attractions in Hamilton, Ontario and Culture of Hamilton, Ontario.
I created the article, List of Hamilton, Ontario Attractions. I am going to rename the Attractions section to Sites of Interest as to be consistent with the US Cities template.Alan.ca 02:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Economy - It's a tad too long, an introduction and its own article Economy of Hamilton, Ontario would be neat. Also, an image of the skyline.
  • Media - Like explained above, should be part of the Culture section.
  • City neighbourhoods, Miscellaneous and Film shots Hamilton, Ontario - These should be seperate and in the "See also" section. Neighbourhoods in Hamilton, Ontario, Miscellaneous Hamilton (Ontario) and [[Film shots in Hamilton, Ontario].

The politics section should have the City hall picture. I've already got started working on Demographics of Hamilton, Ontario. Sum1else 16:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I created an article: List of Hamilton, Ontario Politicians Alan.ca 02:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Sister Cities - Does anybody know where this came from?

I removed this from the main page as I have no idea where this list of cities came from. Alan.ca 12:01, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Sister cities

God knows where some of those came from. But most of 'em came from here [2] Spookane 16:45, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hamilton Map

I would like to add a Map of Hamilton to the Hamilton wikipedia page that shows where Hamilton is in relation to Canada and the rest of the World for the International visiters that come to browse the Hamilton wikipedia page. Below is a link to a good Map I found online. I just wanted to get opinion(s) from others regarding this map. For starters, are we allowed to upload it to the Hamilton wikipedia page?

Link to the Hamilton Map: http://map.hamilton.ca/S_Files/Ham_Where.aspx Nhl4hamilton 07:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Ideally this Map would be a nice addition to the Geography of Hamilton, Ontario section. This section also needs their sources cited.Nhl4hamilton 07:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Copyright: I like the map, but I'm concerned that it may be copyright City of Hamilton. Alan.ca 15:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Hamilton

Hey, I think we should create WikiProject Hamilton. What does everyone think of this idea? FellowWikipedian 00:11, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Details, details...what's involved?Nhl4hamilton 08:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
There's a page about Wikiprojects here. Is it doable? ... discospinster talk 14:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, there is Wikipedia:WikiProject Prescott-Russell. So, I think Hamilton qualifies. FellowWikipedian 23:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment In my opinion, we should choose to be an active part of one of the existing Wiki projects. I added the tagging for us to be part of the cities and Ontario Wikiprojects. These projects tend to become defunct due to low participation. I feel a Hamilton project is not necessary as the edits of the related articles are certainly not all that different from what would be contributed to a Toronto or London article. Possibly, if more of us were to contribute to other articles on one of the two existing wikiprojects I have included those members may assist us with the Hamilton related articles. Alan.ca 22:27, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Whatever happens I will just continue to go the course I've been going with my contributions to the Hamilton wikipedia page. Nhl4hamilton 07:45, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
What a great amount of contributions you have made! Thanks again! Alan.ca 21:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your valuable contributions as well Alan and Thanks for coaching and guiding me every step of the way! Also, using the the citation templates are great idea, especially since wikipedia is an encyclopedia.Nhl4hamilton 08:04, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
As an outside editor from the WikiProject Cities project, I made some minor edits to your article over the last couple of days. The biggest problem that I saw was the over bolding and over linking of words. Something should only be linked once or maybe twice if it a long article, but not every time. I think Toronto was linked everytime. Over linking and bolding is just hard on the eyes when reading. Other than that it looks good, great work on the refs. —MJCdetroit 02:12, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
OK MJCdetroit, thanks for the help and the guidance.Nhl4hamilton 08:16, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Waterfall pictures

I truly appreciate the wonderful waterfall pictures added to the Geography section. However, it would be best if we could select one waterfall picture for that section. It would be wonderful if the interested parties would select one. Alan.ca 09:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Alan, I don't understand. Why do we need only one waterfall picture? We have 80 waterfalls in Hamilton and I only posted up images of 2 of them. I like the 3-images of the Falls just as they are on the Hamilton page.Nhl4hamilton 10:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The two waterfall pictures of Tews Falls and Webster's Falls are not in Waterdown. They are in Greensville, which is a part of Flamborough and Hamilton. Waterdown is also part of Flamborough but is not in the same part. I live beside these waterfalls, so I am certain that they are not in Waterdown.

You are correct. I will make the corrections. I picked up the images from Waterdown, Ontario wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterdown%2C_Ontario Nhl4hamilton 09:54, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
  • The reason I am suggesting we use only one picture is this is an article about Hamilton, not waterfalls. While I appreciate how beautiful they are to look at, it would seem to be a few too many on one subject. There is probably something in the manual of style about it. You may want to include them in one of the branch articles. Alan.ca 11:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Fair enough Alan. I've already removed the larger image of Webster's Falls. In my humble opinion, I say if we are to go with only one image then I think we should just stick with the original one we had. The smaller Webster's Falls image.Nhl4hamilton 12:00, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rated B-Class

I would like to know who rated the Hamilton page and what date it was rated "B-Class?" ThanksNhl4hamilton 10:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

  • It's a new template that I designed for WikiProject Cities. I will most likely be messing around with the rating to make sure that the different features are working. I rated it "B-Class" based on the following Quality Scale. Alan.ca 11:54, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
    • I see. We've made some progress with the Hamilton page. However, just as my gut feeling was suggesting, we still have alot of work to do still with our Hamilton page in order to raise it up some more to the level of "Featured Status". By the way Alan, Are you the one who also created the Quality Scale?Nhl4hamilton 12:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
No, the quality scale was established by some other process. I first discovered it on WikiProject Biography in their talk page template. As for this article, I agree, we do have a great deal of work to do. It is my hope that we may be able to use our skills from improving this page to improve other city articles. Alan.ca 12:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I see. So you rated it a "B-Class". What "Class" was it rated before? Did we make a big jump up in the Scale?Nhl4hamilton 12:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
  • The WikiProject Cities does not have a rating system. I designed a new template banner for the project to include a rating system. Prior to this change, we have not had a rating for this article whatsoever. We may also find the rating will be changed at once more people respond on the project to my new proposal. In fact, the whole rating system may be abandoned. I placed it on this page as a testing ground to demonstrate how it may be useful. Alan.ca 12:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
    • I see Alan. Very good. Sounds like a great idea to rate the Cities according to a Scale like the one you've created. Can't wait to see the type of response we'll get from other people.Nhl4hamilton 13:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

As well, now we will be able to peruse city articles by their rating. When I started helping with the Hamilton article back in November, I was frustrated that I could not find a simple list of all Featured city articles. Using the new template, that can be easily done by clicking on the category. At once I get this implemented I'll take some time to show you how it all works. Alan.ca 16:32, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Note I have updated the WikiProject Cities template to display a link to the rating comments for this page. If you review the banner on this page you will see a link to my comments. Alan.ca 18:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

I propose to delete the external links section. It tends to become a dumping ground for spam links and the relevant links tend to be used elsewhere in the article already. If I don't note objection, I will remove the section 14 days from today. Alan.ca 10:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Alan, I thought the "External Links" section was part of the "WikiProject Cities" templates? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Cities —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nhl4hamilton (talk • contribs) 11:35, 9 February 2007 (UTC).
Plus if you notice Cities that are featured articles most of them (if not all) have an external links section with links to tourism and business-related web sites of that city just like the ones you've deleted from the Hamilton, Ontario wikipedia page.Nhl4hamilton 13:48, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
  • The template example does have an external links section at WP:CITY, but in my travels I have noticed this section tends to draw a lot of controversy. Check out this policy and let me know what you think. Alan.ca 20:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi Alan, some of the earlier links we've deleted from the External Links section I don't have a problem with deleting. I often thought some of them were spam. Even with some of the City pages that I've visited that have reached the "featured status" have a few links on them that look like they could be spam but that didn't stop them from reaching the "featured status" level. Then there are those other links that fall into a grey area and difficult to determine if they're spam or not. The question then becomes; "What purpose does the External Links section serve on the City pages?" Nhl4hamilton 07:17, 10 February 2007(UTC)
  • I'm not prepared to make an argument at this time for all City articles, but in the case of this article, I don't see the use of the External Links section and I would like to remove it. Alan.ca 09:14, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't think we should remove it at all from this article. Some of the links are actually quite handy, for example: links to Maps of Hamilton.Nhl4hamilton 09:38, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
If you click on the geo coordinates for Hamilton on the top of the article you are brought to a page that provides links to all kinds of online maps of Hamilton. In that sense, I think the map link is redundant. It seems if the link is useful it would be written into a paragraph somehow. Alan.ca 10:16, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Well in that case that then brings us back to my original question; What purpose originally was the 'External Links' section supposed to serve?Nhl4hamilton 11:20, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I have no idea what purpose it is supposed to serve, do you have any ideas NHL? Alan.ca 01:45, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Well Alan, since you've asked, I've had some time to think it over. The way I see it if an article like the one we have here for Hamilton has over 100-citations on it and most of them being external links themselves then in our case here it's not really necessary to have that section here PLUS, add to the fact, when you look at most of the other city pages that have already reached the "featured status" level they don't even come close to Hamilton's in terms of number of citations they have on them.Nhl4hamilton 09:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Demographics

The demographic page is way to big. There should be a cut off on the number of ethnicities shown. There are simply too many. Some of the information is unneccessary and needs to be condensed. -Galati

I disagree. I've reverted the information and the chart back to it's original form. You are free to contribute to the Hamilton, Ontario article however, we cite our sources here and the information that you deleted had citations on them and help give people a better understanding of the ethnic makeup of our community. As well, I notice when you make your contributions to wikipedia that you are not using your "Edit Summary" box. This is a useful tool to use because for one thing it takes alot of the guess work for the rest of us and we can then better understand why an edit was made. Also, When citing sources please use Citation Templates. The templates provide a standard format for citations and often cause a contributor not to forget key elements. For example, the cite web template requires, URL, ACCESSDATE and TITLE. There are additional fields, but it will error out if you don't atleast contribute those 3 elements. You may want to see WP:CITET. Last but not least, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and the Hamilton, Ontario article has gone through with some MAJOR cleanup and alot of hard work has gone into it. Now it's an article with over 100 citations on it. You may also want to take a look at WP:NOT for an explanation of what wikipedia is not. Nhl4hamilton 17:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
It is absoultely ridiculous. Thanks for restating in the demographics page the proportion of the English, Scottish and Irish in Hamilton, even though it is clearly stated in the column to the left; even though the column that I had put in before yours already had percentages and the population. I brought those sources into the Hamilton page, about the foreign groups in Hamilton. I am the one who contributed to the age grous of the city. The very section on religion is what I have contributed to the Hamilton page, so dont tell me what I sources I have not put in. Sure the article is great, but your contribution to the demographics page is utterly ridiculous. - Galati
Your tone is ridiculous, calm down. There was no need to shorten the list of ethnic groups we had listed in the demographics section just for the sake of shortening it. Hamilton is third in Canada as far as Canadian cities with the most ethnic groups in their city (fact is also cited with a source by the way) and with that being said, it is only logical to include a MUCH larger listing of the ethnic groups so that people reading the article can have a better understanding on just how diverse the ethnic makeup of our community really is. Yesterday I took a look at the listing of contributions you have made to wikipedia since you first arrived on the scene and from my observations you have "ruffled" a few feathers in the past with your deletions and alterations on other wikipedia articles. As well, would be a great idea for you to start using you EDIT SUMMARY box when making the edits this way we can better understand why an edit was made. Cite your sources by using citation templates or your additions to the Hamilton, Ontario article(s) will be deleted. Nhl4hamilton 16:24, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Thank you Galati and Nhl4hamilton for all of your contributions to this article. Could the two of you include some article diffs to demonstrate the change that you disagree about? Let's try to keep this about the content and not the editor. Last thing I want to see here is a good editor getting chased away. Galati, please see WP:ES, as using edit summaries helps everyone be more productive. Alan.ca 18:12, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I was waiting to give Galati the chance to respond first but since he hasn't responded yet I'll go first. I would like to see citations added to all contributions made to the Hamilton, Ontario article from this day forward especially when it comes to numbers and statistics. The chart he posted before I like the idea of adding the 3rd column "Percent" but again no sources were cited for the numbers posted. As well, I like the idea of having more than 5 or 6 of the Top ethnic groups listed in that chart this way people can get a better feel for the ethnic makeup of our community and just how diverse it really is. I am also thinking that maybe in time even create a Main Article page for the Demographics section and place a smaller version of the chart on the Hamilton article and a larger version like the one I like in the new Demographics Main article page. Nhl4hamilton 15:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Nomination

Had a look at the article and overall it appears to be very good, especially the references. However there are a few points I would like to see improved, specifically relating to the Lead section.

*The lead needs to summarise the whole article see WP:LEAD. At the moment it includes the various names that Hamilton has been given. This information does not seem to be found anywhere else in the article - could they be incorporated into the history section and then mentioned in the lead if really necessary.

  • The lead talks about waterfalls - surely this belongs in the geography section? even if very notable I doubt they deserve more than one sentence in the lead.

*Hamilton has built on its historical and social background. - This is not really an adequate summary of the History section of the article. The lead should atleast mention George Hamilton (politician) and other important historical events. *The lead also has a list of attractions which don't seem to be in the Culture section themselves. The culture section does seem to focus heavily on the music scene - Is this representative of the actual Hamilton?

*As the largest steel manufacturing city in Canada and home of the two Steel Giants; Stelco and Dofasco where 60% of all the steel in Canada is produced. It is the steel and metals manufacturing Capital of Canada.[76] - Sentence from Economy: could be re-worded for easier reading. *McMaster University was established in Hamilton in 1930. It is locally the sixth largest employer with approximately 3,500 full-time equivalent academic and support staff. It also has six partner hospitals in the city. Total student population well over 27,000. - From the economy section: A lot of very short sentences which means prose doesn't flow very well. This information is also repeated in the education section. Ideally it should only be in one section. *A massive McMaster University research campus called McMaster Innovation Park is planned for development on the former Camco lands near Westdale.[82] - Sentence in the Economy section: The information is also repeated the education section. *Also, Columbia International College of Canada is a private school in Hamilton, Ontario which is inspected and registered with the Ontario Ministry of Education - Sentence from Education: Unnecessary to refer to Hamilton as Hamilton, Ontario at this stage of the article in my opinion - Just stick to calling it Hamilton. This seems to occur often in the education section. *The table at the top of the Sports section would benefit from a title or a description of what it's a table of for those not as familiar with canadian sport (such as myself!) I hope these suggestions help improve the article. I've put the article on hold but looking forward to being able to pass it when some of these have been addressed. - Suicidalhamster 15:45, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Excellent work Suicidalhamster. You have a very good eye for detail and we thank you for your opinions and suggestions on how we here can further improve on the Hamilton, Ontario article. Cheers! Nhl4hamilton 07:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Ok, I will take the task of rewriting the lead and moving the sentences of it to the appropriate sections of the article. It would be nice if someone else could make the table correction mentioned for sports. Alan.ca 12:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Great to see work progressing on this article, however the Lead seems to have got very long. According to WP:LEAD it should be no longer than 3 to 4 paragraphs, currently it has 5.
Two new sports venues open up in Hamilton in 2007, both of which are on the McMaster University grounds. The first is the Ronald V. Joyce Stadium, [15] and the second is the David Braley Athletic Centre.[16] - This is found in the lead however is not found anywhere else in the article meaning that the lead is not summarising. This sentence and quite a few others need to be moved to their relevant section.
Try looking at the lead on the Sheffield article which is a featured article about a city, although just having two paragraphs is on the short side in my opinion, it does a good job of summarising and not overwhelming the reader. - Suicidalhamster 13:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I had not posted the changes before your follow-up remarks above. Please see the current lead section. Alan.ca 23:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Great job with the LEAD section Alan. I had a feeling I had put stuff in there that didn't belong. I was using featured article of Vancouver B.C. as a guide when I was trying to write up the lead section for the Hamilton article. Nhl4hamilton 11:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Good work on the Lead section. Two minor points:
  • With a population of 662,401 - this seems unnecessarily accurate, would 662,000 or 662,400 be acceptable, especially as source 5 has different total. Also source 4 which seems to say 662,401 is a 2001 figure.
662,401 is the 2001 census measured figure. It is the figure listed by source 4 and anything different would be an incorrect representation of that statement in source 4. If you click on the reference for that fact, it takes you to the 2001 census page that states that value. 2001 is the most current census as of this date, anything else is an estimate, as represented in source 5. I do see your point, the source for being the third largest CMA is source 5, which for some reason is using a 2002 and beyond estimated figure. However, if you look at that chart in source 5, it seems that Hamilton is consistently ranked third in Ontario for the estimates given. For this reason, I cannot abide changing it to any other value, but I did insert note 4 next to the population value for clarity.

Alan.ca 01:08, 19 February 2007 (UTC) :::::*the health and sciences sector, lead by employers such as Hamilton Health Sciences. - I believe it should be led not lead in this sentence.

Fixed spelling mistake. Alan.ca 01:08, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Overall very close to GA however would be great if these could be cleared up. - Suicidalhamster 00:24, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks a lot for your encouragement and time invested here. It can be frustrating to respond to someone's criticisms, but overall I greatly appreciate the productive results of your time and patience. Hopefully the article now meets your definition of GA. Alan.ca 01:08, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm passing the article to GA standard. I am very impressed with the improvements made to the article and it's overall standard. I apologise if some of the suggestions seemed fussy, however the article has certainly improved and even if too fussy for GA atleast it makes it closer to Featured article standard! Once again good work. - Suicidalhamster 02:25, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Good stuff! I think the next thing we need to work on here with the Hamilton article in order to get it that much closer to the "featured article" status is to get some top-of-the-line photo images of our City added to the article. That seems to be the one thing that most of the City pages that have reached "featured article" status have in common. Thanks for your help. Nhl4hamilton 08:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Table correction for Sports

  • Need some helpful advice before I go ahead with corrections needed for the Sports section. Thanks. Nhl4hamilton 11:29, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
What corrections do you want advice about? Alan.ca 18:26, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Up at the top of this discussion page inside 'the Priority 3 To-do list', it says "Cleanup sports section (way too long)"...How long or short do you think it should be and when shortening up that section, what do you want included there? Nhl4hamilton 07:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hamilton Photos

  • I've been taking a look at some of the City pages that have reached the "featured article" status and the one thing most of them have in common (if not all) is that they have some great photos of their city posted on the articles. Even though we have some good pictures of Hamilton in this article I feel that we can make some improvements here in this area. With that in mind I am tossing out this question to the Hamiltonians and contributers/ readers of the Hamilton, Ontario article; What photos/ images would you like to see added to our Hamilton article? and please also include the name of the section you would like to see that image placed in. Thanks. Nhl4hamilton 11:35, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nicknames of Hamilton

I've removed the citation that was used for "The Hammer" nickname...Dictionary of Hamilton Vol II was used as a citation and I can tell you that the book does not contain any reference at all to that nickname. I used that as a citation for the nickname "Electric City." If anyone could please supply us with a citation for "The Hammer" nickname it would be greatly appreciated.

As well, we also had more nicknames listed for Hamilton and they were removed. I was the one that added the nicknames and even supplied citations for all of them. I would like to know why those nicknames were removed. Thanks. Nhl4hamilton 15:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

  • I removed the list of nicknames because it looked terrible in the infobox. Someone else removed them from the lead paragraph, as they looked terrible there as well. I am not opposed to a discussion on which nickname should be used, but I find a list of them all to be trivial. I chose "The Hammer" because I have lived in the city for 27 years and I have always known it to be the nickname. I was the one who mistakenly chose that source for the name. Alan.ca 18:07, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I was the one that removed it from the Lead section because when looking at other lead sections belonging to city articles that have reached the "featured article" status they didn't include a listing of nicknames there in that section. I don't have a problem with using "The Hammer" as the primary nickname for Hamilton because personally that's the one I use for our city as well. What I am concerned about though is that you mentioned inside the infobox (like you've mentioned here) that 'you've lived in Hamilton for 27 years and have always known it by that nickname.' Now I'm not disputing that Alan but I like the idea of including the citations to back our claims. You were the one that showed me the way on how to do it and I've been using citations ever since, they're great to have in our article here. What I don't want to see happen is someone else down the road start deleting other information that we've already cited sources for in the article and replace the citations with their own opinions on the matter, with no citation to back it up because I think that would just defeat the whole purpose of having citations in the first place. Nhl4hamilton 07:01, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I totally agree my friend. I'm not suggesting my personal knowledge should be enough. However, I think we should focus on finding multiple reliable sources if we are going to assert a nickname that is not well known. I will run a scan through the newspaper database to see if I can find something. I do believe we should choose only one for the Infobox. I may have taken an aggressive tone as ugly memories came flooding back from this argument when I was on the business development committee for the Hamilton Chamber of Commerce. The short story is that local business interests have been concerned about the nicknames for this city for quite some time and there has been some interest to change it. If you would like to remove my personal self cited commentary, I have no objection to that. I mainly placed it there to put the dispute into the talk page vs hanging up the GA approval. Alan.ca 13:32, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Sounds like you may have had some live discussions with the Chamber of Commerce regarding the Hamilton nicknames. One nickname inside the infobox is ok for me. I'm easy. I never really liked some of the other ones that have been tossed around in the past anyways. Nhl4hamilton 18:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
  • We need to sort this nickname issue out. I don't think we should have a list of them and certainly listing the references as part of the nickname field is not aesthetic. Anyone interested in this debate please state your preference, the source and why you believe it should be the selection below. Alan.ca 20:09, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I prefer "Steeltown". I think it's the most widely recognized nickname. It's the only nickname for the city mentioned in the Government of Ontario's description of the city. The sobriquet has also been mentioned in scholarly articles such as "Signs and Symbols in Hamilton: An Iconology of Steeltown" (in a Swedish journal, no less), and serious newspaper articles like "Gangs Heading to Steeltown". ... discospinster talk 20:39, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
It's an issue?  Nhl4hamilton | Chit-Chat  posted at 15:52, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:People from Hamilton, Ontario

I just finished with the Dan Brown (hockey) Bio and at bottom of the article I placed the ((Category:People from Hamilton, Ontario)) but then when I click on that link to check to see if his name has been added to the list his name does not appear there at all. Could this be because he has the same name as the famous author (Davinci Code) where a disambiguation is required? Nhl4hamilton 11:05, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

OK I fixed the problem. It seems that with certain browsers you don't get the changes displayed right away. AOL was the problem browser I was using at the time when checking to see if Dan Brown's name was listed in the ((Category:People from Hamilton, Ontario)) and it didn't show up HOWEVER when switching over to another browser like Netscape the changes or edits show up right away with that browser. Pretty weird stuff.  Nhl4hamilton | Chit-Chat 

[edit] History Section

Ladies and gentlemen, please keep the history section brief. There are 3 other articles atleast dealing with the history of Hamilton. I have reduced the content quite a bit I hope to see further effort to condense this section. If anyone wants to expand this section, please discuss it on the talk page here first. Alan.ca 04:58, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Alan, good idea. I plan on doing the same thing with the Sports section as well. I will pay a visit to the Toronto article as a guide to see how to best go about shortening the Sports section here.  Nhl4hamilton | Chit-Chat 

[edit] Coastal?

According to the definition of a coast, Hamilton is on the shore of Lake Ontario (or Burlington Bay/Hamilton Harbour), but it is not on a coast.... Perhaps the intro can somehow be reworded?Plasma east 12:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I've changed it to "harbour city" because that's how it's usually referred to. A "coast" tends to relate to the ocean, whereas a "harbour" can refer to any body of water that ships can dock at. ... discospinster talk 13:38, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

A "harbour city"? Most cities like Hamilton are referred to as PORT CITIES. I have changed that. Also, you may want to consider taking Hamilton out of the coastal cities category. Dhastings 22:01, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

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