Talk:Half-elven

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How could Dior be half-elven, since Luthien had chosen to be mortal and was therefore no longer an Elf? Is there a Tolkien source for this? Stan 01:13, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Lúthien had chosen to be counted among Men after death — she had not become a human, she had only chosen the fate of humans. And keep in mind Lúthien was herself half Maia, so Dior was a quarter Maia, a quarter Elven, and half Man. — Jor 11:02, Jan 6, 2004 (UTC)

1.) Concerning Dior's status, the judgement of the Valar concerning the half-even had not been handed down at the time of his birth, so it's difficult to judge clearly. He was born to a mortal father and an elven mother, but this was after they had been re-embodied as mortals. Given that his father, Beren, was allowed to return to life, and his mother, Luthien, allowed to die as a mortal, it seems that his case is surrounded by extenuating circumstances and pointless to attempt to decipher. In any case, his early and violent death renders the debate rather moot.

All that can be safely said is that his mortal blood was important enough that his daughter through a full-blooded Sindarin elf, Elwing, was given the choice of a mortal death by the Valar (which she declined).

2.) I take issue with "Eärendil's fate was special however: he was not allowed to stay in Valinor, but had to sail the heavens" - Eärendil's heavenly excursions were out of his love for sailing, and inability to return to Middle-Earth. Nothing was required of him in this regard.

3.) "The heirs of Elrond, including Arwen Undómiel, also had the free choice of kindred, therefore Arwen could choose to be counted amongst the Edain even though her father had chosen to be counted as Elven." - this statement is plausible, but the books strongly imply that her decision was more like Luthien's (to whom she is frequently compared), not the Half-elven. Unlike the line of Elros, who died in the manner of men, Arwen did not exactly suffer a mortal fate - she left Minas Tirith and wandered the woods as a widow until she faded from memory. Her mortal fate is left ambiguous.

My copy of "Return of the King" (Ballantine Books paperback, printed 1983) says just before section II of Appendix A: "She went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lorien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came ... then at last ... she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after ... with the passing of Evenstar no more is said in this book of the days of old." This definitely sounds like she lay down and died. DanielCristofani 06:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

-Peter

[edit] Arwen's choice

I added a "cite needed" tag, on the statement "The children of Elrond were also given free choice of kindred..." Is there evidence of this in any of the texts? My impression was, as suggested above, that Arwen's choice was of the same nature as Luthien's—that by marrying a mortal she was forced to choose his fate. I'm not a Tolkien scholar, though, so perhaps there is evidence for the statement in some of his writings. If so, a citation will clear this up.--Srleffler 06:42, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

There is a statement. I think it is in The Silmarillion in the 'Of the Rings of the Power and the Third Age' bit, or maybe in Appendix A of LotR (the 'Tale of Aragorn and Arwen'), where Aragorn and Elrond are talking Aragorn says "But lo! Master Elrond, the time of choosing is drawing near", oe something. I'll try and remember to look this up. Carcharoth 11:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Naming

This page used to contain Norse half-elves and other fantasy half-elves. I made Half-elf, previusly a redirect, focus on the Norse, with Tolkien's and others mentioned in "In other contexts". But should this page be retitled Half-elf (Middle-earth)? To my knowledge Tolkien never used "Half-elf", only "Half-elven" (never mind she-elf ;-) ). But Half-elven (Middle-earth) would go against Wikipedia naming conventions, which is to use the singular - that's why Elves (Middle-earth) was moved to Elf (Middle-earth). Either way this page would be made into a redirect to Half-elf. Uthanc 02:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree this page should have (middle earth) after the title and this should be a general page about half elves - Mloren

WHY IS THIS THE ONLY ENTRY FOR HALF-ELF?

There are actual half elves in historical myth. I was linked to this TOLKIEN page from this on necromancy. WHY?

"In Hrólf Kraki's saga, the half-elven princess Skuld was very skilled in witchcraft (seiðr), and this to the point that she was almost invincible in battle. When her warriors fell, she made them rise again to continue fighting."

There is nothing about half-elves in D&D, or any other kind of half-elves listed here. This page is incomplete and needs to be updated.

I mentioned it above; Half-elf contains the Norse stuff. Sheesh. Uthanc 21:41, 25 March 2007 (UTC)