Talk:Haile Selassie I of Ethiopia

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Contents 1 NPOV??? 2 Citation & Reference Cleanup 3 Opening comments 4 Ordinal 5 Pronunciation 6 Selassie and rastafari 7 Rastafari disambiguation page 8 Sub-sections 9 Little thing 10 Believe/Prove/Know 11 Redirect 12 Proposed name change 13 Huh??? 14 Anti-Rasta Christafari edits 15 Time 16 A WWII story 17 'rastafar - ian' or rasta 18 HIH Princess Romanework Haile Selassie 19 Amharic 20 Race 21 My revert 22 Armenian Orphans 23 New main pic 24 font? 25 Title of Haile Selassie 26 Sightings 27 Reggae and cannabis 28 Please, before you remove the ???? 29 Cannabis and the law

[edit] NPOV???

Wow. "In keeping with his cherished principle of collective security, for which he was an outspoken proponent, he sent a contingent under General Bully, known as the Kagnew Battalion, to take part in the UN Conflict in Korea where they fought valiantly against Communist forces in the defence of democratic South Korea."

NPOV anyone? There are people, outside of a few right-wing propaganda artists, that would consider South Korea under Syngman Rhee and the occupiers "democratic" in any way. Hell, even by bourgeois standards there wasn't a free election until 1988!

[edit] Citation & Reference Cleanup

This is a really great informative article but I think the references need to be properly documented next to the sentences it is taken from. I feel that it would be a great disservice to misquote or take out of context information that the reader will interpret as the word of Rastafarians. --Unreal128 14:49, 21 Apr 2006

This article lacks in objectivity. References, references...

[edit] Opening comments

Wayzaro or Wezero? (His lady mother and his lady wife.) Which is the correct transliteration of the Amharic courtesy title? Wetman 06:34, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I don't know about it. Another one: Woizero - see bellow. In my native we even also use two names for Selassie, but I prefer the name written not as in English but Hajle Selasije, as was written by Danilo Jelenc who spent a quarter of a century in Ethiopia as a mining expert and I guess he knows how to spell Amharic words - at least in his own native. I would also like to discuss about the following matter (as Sir BS would say). On November 22 2003 J.J. added a 'better' Selassie's portrait. What in fact did he really mean with that? What is a better portrait? The previous photography was taken at one particular moment and I think it is the 'best' portrait of that particular time. There is no other 'better' portrait I guess. Our lives are one long lines from our births to the end. We are 'the best' in all our times during the lives. And another thing - after him Head removed J.J.'s picture according to some copyright laws. Who owns copyright for all Selassie's photopgraphs in fact? His family? The goverment of Ethiopia itsefs? ... Best regards. --XJamRastafire 05:39, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

____

Here's the genealogy of relating Haile Selassie and Menelik II from this site (it seems to not have a copyright but needs to be confirmed):

titles in italics

Negus Sahle Sellassie (1795-October 12, 1847, Debra Berhan)

m. 1.Bezabech Wolde (d. 1870/1871, Sela Dengay)

son. Negus Haile Malakot Sahle Selassie (1825-November 9, 1855)

m. Ejigayehu (d. August 27, 1877)

son. Menelik II

m. 2.Woizero Yimegnushel

son: Tenagne Worq Sahle Selassie (1830/1835-d.August 28, 1887)

m. Dejazmatch Wolde Mikael Gudesa (d. 1879/1880)

son. HH Ras Makonnen Wolde Mikael (May 8, 1852, Derejo Maryam,Gola nr Harar,Ethiopia - March 21, 1906, Harar,Ethiopia)

m. Yeshimabet Aliye (1864 - March 14, 1894, Harar,Ethiopia)

son. Haile Selassie

• Hi, as regards the correct transliteration of ወይዘሮ (which btw. is the exact equivalent of English "Mrs.", being applicable to any married woman) : Of the alternatives I've seen in the above discussion, "Woizero" comes closest to representing the actual pronunciation. "Wayzaro" is a spelling formerly used by people ignorant of the pronunciation, based on the fact that linguists ca. 100 years ago used to transliterate it as /wäyzäro/. Note the two dots over the ä; many type setters 100 years ago did not have this character, so they changed it to "a", unfortunately resulting in even more bizarre mispronunciations of a lot of transliterated names. "Wezero" doesn't even come close, since the second of the four Amharic letters (the Y) isn't even represented here, though it is distinctly audible. Personally, I would transliterate this title as "Woyzero". Codex Sinaiticus 15:16, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ordinal

I have removed the ordinal. Under Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) an ordinal is only used when there is a second monarch of that name and hence a need to disambigulate. That is also how most monarchies use ordinals, eg, texts do not refer to Queen Victoria I, King Louis Philippe I, etc. Though some monarchs are explicitly given an ordinal when proclaimed, it is invariably dropped from usage and not used until someone with the same name becomes monarch. FearÉIREANN 23:27 11 Jun 2003 (UTC)~

Then are just reggae musicians and Rastafarians that do not conform to wiki style :-). Probably because he is the first for them and there won't be no other one. Ever. Or perhaps that he is the one and only. :-). Otherwise thank you for explanation. And further on. This convention is on the other side strange. As someone change the name with the state suffix. Would there be any Hailse Selassie of (let us say) Macedonia? --XJamRastafire 00:20 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Monarchs up until the mediæval period on wiki tend to described by means of name + ordinal (if more than two) with some references if a clear one could be clarified to the state over which they ruled. Modern monarchs are all in the form of [[{Name} {ordinal if more than one} of {name of state}]], with the name used in english unless a native name is used also in english or there is no english equivalent. (eg, Tsar Nicholas II of Russia not Tsar Nikolai II, Kaiser Wilhelm II not Kaiser William II). So if the was a Haile Selassie in both Ethiopia and Macedonia, they would be in as [[Haile Selassie of Macedonia]]. [[Haile Selassie of Ethiopia]].

The reason for not using an ordinal is simple. In general usage, singular monarchs are not referred to by an ordinal. Using one (as happened on wiki in the past) on some occasions tends to lead others to add one it all over the place, producing Queen Victoria I (which many people would not recognise immediately having never been called that except on the most formal state documents), Louis Philippe I, Juan Carlos I, etc. Ordinals are designed for disambigulation purposes so that you can tell which King Louis, which Tsar Nicholas, which Pope John Paul, which Queen Elizabeth. So unless there is a second monarch of that name, the ordinal is unnecessary. Monarchs with the same name that reigned in different locations are distintinguished by country being included. An ordinal wouldn't help of both Haile Selassies were the first or had a same later ordinal. I hope that clears things up. :-) FearÉIREANN 00:49 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Yes, of course. As is Queen Victoria (not Queen Victoria I of Great Britain) there was only one Karantanian King Samo and not King Samo I of Karantania. --XJamRastafire 01:27 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)

The Rastas pronounce Haile Selassie I pronouncing the one as I as in I did I am etc. Keeping no ordinal is correct for wiki. Squiquifox 02:11, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This discussion is continued below. The common reference to Haile Selassie is with the ordinal, although this may not follow a general convention with other monarchs/emperors. Whig 09:06, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

If I may add something here, His Majesty's official name included the ordinal during his lifetime. He was officially Kedamawi Haile Selassie (Haile Selassie I) in all official and unofficial references. Although not common practice among western monarchies, there have been notable exceptions, most recently, Pope John Paul I who adopted the ordinal with his name. The pope is afterall the monarch of the independent Vatican City state, and as such follows monarchial practice in these matters. Sendeq

[edit] Pronunciation

Does anybody happen to know the correct pronunciation of "Haile Selassie"? A pronunciation key of some sort would be helpful for those of us who are easily confused by trailing e's :)

I've only ever heard it pronounced "Hi-Lee Sir-Lass-ee" (including by my former African History lecturer who met the Emperor at least once). Timrollpickering 17:35, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• As a matter of fact, I do... While pronunciation in other languages may be somewhat looser, in Amharic the correct pronunciation is High-leh Sihl-la-sey. Using more linguistic notation, it would be /Hayle Sıllasé/... (é here does not mean a stress or accent on that vowel, but that it is a longer sound as in "hey"...) Regards, Codex Sinaiticus 15:16, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Selassie and rastafari

Have created rasta section and placed a rasta reference at the beginning. Haile Selassie is now better known as a historical religious figure than as a historical political figure, and I am sure that that will be even more so in 100 years time. So this side of Haile Selassie's persona does need stressing. He is a religious symbol. Him being so means rastas will be interested in what the site has to say about him (as muslims are interested in what wikipedia has to say about Mohammed. Personally I think it makes accuracy and neutrality very important in this article. Squiquifox 22:31, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC) 100,000 Rastas waiting for Selassie in Jamaica sourced from Guardian UK [1]

I think that here you are speaking from your prersonal experience of Emperor Haile Selassie. Although he may indeed be better known in the Afro-Carribean community as a religious symbol, in the African community he is regarded as a political and historical figure. Please do not generalize about public perception as to make that kind of claim reputably, you would need to conduct a massive world wide poll. How His Majesty will be regarded in 100 years time cannot be predicted now. It is not "neutral" to stress the Emperor as purely a Rastafarian religious figure, when for 72 million fellow Ethiopians he is not seen that way but as an important historical and political figure. I think there is more than enough room for both views. Sendeq 18:40 May 4, 2006

[edit] Rastafari disambiguation page

Right now there is a disambiguation page at Rastafari, with a redirect from Ras Tafari. I have proposed at Talk:Rastafari that this page be abandoned, that rastafari redirects to Rastafarianism and Ras Tafari to Haile Selassie. Comments here please. --SqueakBox 22:34, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. ςפקιДИτς 00:06, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

Done ages back, but cheers for the support, SqueakBox 00:29, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sub-sections

I think we do need the headers to stop the article getting chaotic. Please say why you want to get rid of them here, don't just revert. I think we should have them because that is what wiki give them to us for.--SqueakBox 04:31, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

I used them in his life because it had become disorganised. Wikipedia articles, without someone at the controls, do have a natural tendency toward disorganisation, and sub-sections really counter this, which is why they are there. They also help the reader--SqueakBox 04:37, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

Uh, I didn't revert; I simply deleted them. I have no idea what the article looked like prior to the version I worked on.

But to address your point, SqueakBox, it looks either ugly or silly to have a section or sub-section title for each paragraph in an article. A paragraph is a natural grouping of material on a given topic; if the article needs a header to tell the reader what each paragraph is about, then every paragraph so marked should be rewritten for clarity. We really should not have a header for a passage smaller than 2 or 3 paragraphs. -- llywrch 05:11, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Is that okay now? --SqueakBox 05:19, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

Closer to what I'm thinking, yes. I admit that I wasn't comfortable messing with the sub-sections under "Biography", but I feel you did the right thing there. The paragraph about the Order of the Garter needs to be better integrated into this article, but I don't know enough of the details to make the proper change. I'm still uncomfortable about the subsections under "The Rastafarians", but nowhere near enough to remove them; because this section touches upon an overlooked topic -- the spiritual & intellectual importance of Ethiopia outside of Africa -- I'm hoping that when someone is able to add that information to this article it won't appear jarring at all. -- llywrch 17:43, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Presentation, how things look, has never been my strong point; I tend to be thinking about content and organisation; I will cetainly keep your concerns in mind wherever I work. I suspect the spiritual & intellectual importance of Ethiopia outside of Africa deserves an article to itself, linking to Selassie, Garvey, the Rastas, etc. I will see if I can comne up with something. --SqueakBox 18:13, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Little thing

Fascinating stuff, but there seems to be a paragraph or two missing between (a) Selassie's exile and return to Ethiopia (which would, I assume, explain why is listed as a British Field Marshal and why he has the Order of the Garter), and (b) Selassie's return to Ethiopia and the 1955 constitution. What did the chap do?-Ashley Pomeroy 18:08, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Both the Garter and the Field Marshal's baton were post war develpments, although his anti-Fascist stands and his war time activities were among the reasons for both. Sendeq

[edit] Believe/Prove/Know

I don't quite understand this insistence on saying Rastafarians don't need to "believe" (as opposed to "prove") that Haile Selassie is Jah (They say that they know Selassie is God, and therefore do not need to believe it.). This wording makes it sound like Rastafarians don't believe that Selassie is Jah - which is or course nonsensical. My guess is that what's behind this is a desire to draw a distinction between facts (which one "knows"), which are undoubtly true, and axioms (which one "believes"), which might not be true. I would assume that Rastafarians wish to elevate their view of Selassie to the former class, and that's behind this wording change. However, as it stands, it reads very confusingly, being seemingly contradictory. If the text wants to say that Rastafarians view the equivalence between Selassie and Jah as a fact, not a belief, then it should just say so, as opposed to this confusing wording. Noel (talk) 13:52, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the input, I will rewrite. Joseph Owens book Dread deals with this issue extensively (and is my source). Bob Marley immortalised it in Ride, Natty, Ride (from Survival) when he sang "we must know and not believe". A lot of the Rasta sections in other articles need rewrites, which I will get around to some time, but I will do this today, --SqueakBox 15:18, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect

Trey Stone (talk • contribs) bypassed wikipedia procedure and changed the article to Haile Selassie, thus distorting the record history. Please don't repeat, --SqueakBox 19:14, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC). He did not realise, --SqueakBox 19:33, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed name change

I propose we rename the article Haile Selassie I of Ethiopia. See Juan Carlos I of Spain. Haile Selassie I is common usage amongst Rastafarians, --SqueakBox 19:33, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)

see #Ordinal for this discussion.--PRB 13:36, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I read that already. it doesn't explain Juan Carlos I of Spain, and in the light of this I want to reopen the debate (which was months ago) --SqueakBox 15:31, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure we shouldn't make it Haile Selassie I of Abyssinia. Whig 16:40, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Why Abyssinia? You'll have to have a good reason to get my support for your intriguing idea, --SqueakBox 16:46, May 18, 2005 (UTC)

Because the country was historically called Abyssinia and remained so when Ras Tafari became Emperor Haile Selassie I. Whig 16:54, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but it then became Ethiopia long before he died, which is why I don't think it is a great idea, --SqueakBox 16:59, May 18, 2005 (UTC)

A fair point. I think we might want to mention Abyssinia in the article, though. Whig 02:05, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Ethiopia was only refered to as Abyssinia by non-Ethiopians. Haile Selassie I was crowned "Emperor of Ethiopia" as all his predicessors were. Abyssinia is what non-Ethiopians referred to the Semetic inhabited highlands of central and northern Ethiopia and Eritrea, and is not correct. Sendeq

I do want to agree with SqueakBox above, though, that we should use the ordinal in the title for this entry, for two reasons. First, because it does reflect the general usage, and second because it does not express a POV. Queen Victoria is not generally called by her ordinal, nor are most monarchs where there is no II, III etc., but I think here a foolish consistency is undesirable. Whig 02:09, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

And it is Juan Carlos I of Spain. The fact that the Rastas do use the I is important in that they refer to him a lot. This article deals with a dead political figure who is being deified, and so we must treat him as such, --SqueakBox 02:25, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

It's going to require some careful editing to keep this properly contextualized and NPOV, but I absolutely agree that the deification issue must be addressed properly and fairly. Whig 03:26, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to get a sense of the general opinion on this move. The convention does preclude the ordinal, but the convention is not policy, and is not followed as in the case of Juan Carlos I of Spain for specific example as given by Squeakbox above. We need not be consistent as long as we maintain NPOV. Those disagreeing, please speak up. Whig 09:12, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Note that the ordinal is not used only by Rastafari. [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] Whig 09:14, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Huh???

Why is this article not titled Haile Selassie? --Hottentot

For much the same reason that we have William I of England as opposed to "William the Conqueror". Loganberry (Talk) 23:19, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Or, more importantly, why we have Juan Carlos I of Spain even though both were/are the first and only, SqueakBox 23:25, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

---

What in the world is this "Power of Trinity" business? An explanation please. I think this article needs to be divided in two, one for Haile Selassie the head of state, and another to discuss his role in the Rastafarian religion.

• "Power of Trinity", translated into Ethiopic, is "Haile Selassie".
• I disagree that the article be divided. All the information about His Majesty can and should be on one page, not two pages.
• His Majesty" is part of his name, being part of his official title, and as such, is appropriate for the lead, so I'm reverting your blanking of it. Codex Sinaiticus 14:56, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree with one not 2 articles. Selassie I is now better known as a religious symbol. It would be like splitting Mohammed off into his political life, and him as a religious symbol, SqueakBox 15:02, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Rasta Christafari edits

The unmistakable hand of anti-Rasta Christafarian has been editing this article. Please don't use anti-Rastafarian Christafari material as source material for this article. Material from their site is not reliable as a reliable source for wikipedia articles concerning Rastafari or Selassie I as it is a very small Christian cult with no kind of mainstream credibility and a mission to discredit Rastafari and replace it with Christianity, something not to be engaged in on the pages of wikipedia, SqueakBox 00:49, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are refering to that is objectionable to Rastafarian beliefs, and I'm also not sure what "Christafarian" is. Although it is only fair that Rastafarian beliefs be included in any article about the Emperor, he was also a devout Christian and a historical figure, so those sides of his life and legacy must be represented also. It is not right to ask non-Rastafarians to refrain from adding to this article. As an Ethiopian, Emperor Haile Selassie I was and is an important part of my legacy and that is distinct from Rastafarian beliefs. I'm sure you agree that faith and history are not the same. There is plenty of room for both points of view. I have yet to see anything hateful or vindictive directed at His Majesty on this article. Sendeq 18:40 May 4, 2006

[edit] Time

Please leave the Time magazine pic here. It is great to see it in the other Person of the Year article but I suspect more than anyone else there the Time article had a huge impact on SelassieI's place in the world, especially in regards to Rastafari, and therefore it is entirely inappropriate to remove the pic from the article, SqueakBox 14:51, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

You'd be right that it would be inappropriate to remove the image from the article if it was actually discussed in depth what Time said, why they awarded him the Person of the Year and how it impacted the man. However, none of these things are being done. Currently we have over 200 covers of TIME magazine, all claiming fair use. This is BAD. I am removing the image from the article until someone sorts out the issue where we describe the things I have just stated. - Ta bu shi da yu 16:01, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you actualy had read the article. I have fixed the Time magazine link and put the pic in the relevant paragraph. The fact of him being personality of the year is irrelevant,. The fact that the article inspired the Rastafari movement is utterly relevant and clearly makes it fair use. This is what we have

The belief in the incarnate divinity of Emperor Haile Selassie I began after news reports of his coronation reached Jamaica, particularly via the 2 Time magazine articles about the coronation the week before and the week after the event. Okay? SqueakBox 16:22, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

OK by me. - Ta bu shi da yu 17:08, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Ta Bu Shi Da Yu, it looks like the November 1930 cover in question was not a "Man of the Year" issue, although He was MOTY 1935. So I'm not sure that particular cover belongs at Person of the Year anyway... Cheers, ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 18:05, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Really? Will get that checked out. - Ta bu shi da yu 02:12, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A WWII story

My late father, a great history buff and World War II fighter, often recounted the following incident: Sometime during the 1930s, Ethiopian forces under Haile Selassie captured a regiment of Italian invaders. The Ethiopians allegedly cut off one of each soldiers' testicles, and then set them free -- a symbolic gesture to cast shame upon the fascist invaders. I have not found any documentation on that this incident, and was wondering if any one else has.Rastapopoulos 09:05, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

It is a completely false story, probably created to propogate the image of Ethiopians and Africans in general as uncivilized barbarians. In the speech he gave upon returning to his Palace in Addis Ababa on May 5, 1941, the Emperor instructed his people to forgive the invader in the spirit of Christ. Indeed, when the British began rounding up all the Italians to put them in prisoner of war camps in Kenya and Tanganyka (now Tanzania), the Emperor quietly encouraged his people to help many Italians hide from the British. He desperately needed the help of these Italians in maintaining the infrastructure they they had built during their five years of occupation. As a result, a large community of Italians remained in Ethiopia, devoted to Haile Selassie, for the duration of his reign. User:Sendeq 10:45, April 28 2006

About this practice in the Horn of Africa of castration of prisoners of war (which did happen, but with less frequency, into the 19th & 20th centuries) see Mikedash's entertaining story at Talk:Battle of Adowa. -- llywrch 18:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 'rastafar - ian' or rasta

The term 'rasta-farian' is deemed insulting and part of a categorisation scheme which is rejected by rasta,

Is it possible to change these references to Rasta instead? I don't think it would make the article read any worse and think it is appropriate, Muslims would not be referred to as mohammedans, no? 194.112.58.194 09:14, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the term that is strenuously rejected by the Rastafari is the one that puts the -ISM at the end. I am not aware of anyone who objects to the term "Rastafarian", and am aware of a number that self describe this way. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 13:17, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Codex. The term Rastafarian is not considered insulting by Rastas and I am bemused as to why anyone would think it was. See the band The Rastafarians for instance. Rastafarianism is a problematic term, though, which is why I so vigorously opposed that as the original Rastafari movement article name, SqueakBox 13:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

What some Rastas do object to is the pronounciation Rasta[fair]ian, preferring Rasta[far]ian as the correct pronounciation, indeed this is the way The Rastafarians on their song I-hold (behold) the Rastafarians pronounced it, SqueakBox 19:18, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] HIH Princess Romanework Haile Selassie

Someone has continuously edited the section that mentions Princess Romanework, stating that she was allegedly born of an "alleged" union with Woizero Altayech, and stating that there were "questions" as to whether she was really the Emperor's daughter. This would be considered hugely scandalous within the Imperial family as there is absolutely no question that Her Imperial Highness was the Emperor's daughter. Every single geneology of the Imperial family, from the official tree published by the Imperial government during the monarchy to the Almanach de Bruxelles (which lists the geneology of non-European royal houses) includes the Princess as the Emperor's eldest child, and mentions his brief union to Woizer Altatyech. It is true that the Emperor's relationship with Woizer Altayech was not a "church marriage", but rather a form of "common law" union that was common in Ethiopia in those days, particularly among young nobles who did not think they were ready for the insoluable church marriages. Her Imperial Highness was recognized as the Emperor's eldest child during her life, was granted the title of Princess and Imperial Highness upon his coronation, was given in marriage by him personally, and was buried within the Imperial family crypt at Holy Trinity Cathedral with his other children. It is offensive to her survivors to be told that their ancestry is questioned especially when no one in Ethiopia or the Imperial Family does so. User:Sendeq

Yes, there is so a question that he ever had any union with Altayech, this only comes from other sources but not from anything His Majesty himself ever mentioned or wrote in his copious records, nor in his Autobiography, that he himself stated did not leave anything important out.. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

As you will note, the Emperor's autobiography is virtually devoid of personal details and is not a memoire at all, but rather a political testament he wrote largely during his exile. He does not mention many people in his family. Indeed the Emperor seldom mentions anything personal in his writings or speeches. The rare examples are the statements he issued upon the death of the Duke of Harrar, and the death of Empress Menen. For example there is virtually no mention in his autobiography of his youngest son Prince Sahle Selassie, or his neice and nephews by his elder brother, and virtually no mention of his mother and his maternal relatives such as his grandmother Imahoi Wolete Giorgis and his aunt Woizero Mamite who both had a significant role in his upbringing. Indeed the Emperor's maternal relatives, who are very numerous remain a mystery to most people. This does not call into question thier legitimate relationship. Whether or not the "union" with Woizer Altayech was a marriage or not, the Emperor and the Imperial family recognized (and continue to recognize) Princess Romanework as his eldest child, include her and her children and grandson Lij Sibistianos (Sebastian) in the Imperial family tree. There are numerous other people who have and continue to claim the Emperor as their parent, but each and everyone of them has been denied by the Imperial family, and none made the allegations during the Emperor's reign. They are all highly suspect, but to class Princess Romanework with them is quite wrong. User:Sendeq

Well a member of the Imperial family once assured me personally that His Majesty only had relations with one woman during his entire life, and that was Empress Menen, and that he was perfectly celibate both before and after his marriage to her, so that is what I believe. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:25, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Intersting statement when the official family tree of the Imperial family includes the Princess. I urge you to e-mail the Crown Council of Ethiopia and ask them if Princess Romanework was the Emperor's daughter. I too have contacts with members of the Imperial family and can assure you that they do not question her parentage. Indeed Wikipedia is the only place I have ever seen her parentage questioned. I will make a point of asking H.I.H Prince Ermias for the benefit of this page.User:Sendeq

This may be the truth or may not be . . . but are there are verfiable sources (e.g., books, articles, news reports) that confirm that this Princess Romanework was ever said or thought to be Emperor Haile Selassie's daughter? If not, then the whole question becomes moot due to Wikipedia:Verifiability. If this can be shown, then are there the same materials that can show her parentage has been questioned? These should then be added to the article as references. Unfortunately, personal communications from the Imperial family do not qualify as verifiable evidence.

I have no opinion about what is true or not -- & I have no reason to doubt what either of you have written. Yet I hope that both of you agree with me that if there is no question about who her parents are, then Wikipedia shouldn't raise suspicions (& cause unneeded embarassment or anguish for a living person) over it unless it can be shown that the matter was discussed in public at some point. -- llywrch 04:24, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

The thing is there are many printed geneologies that make no mention at all of Romanawork, but there are a few that do. I am suspicious of the ultimate source for the ones that do, (which seem more recent) beause I know that his enemies at various times have tried to convince the people of all sorts of lies about him, some of the bigger and more blatant ones make this seem like simple stuff... But some of them are more subtle... I would call this more subtle because it would undermine Orthodox concepts of the sanctity of marriage if it could be proven that either the Emperor or EMpress had multiple relationships, divorces, other children etc. and this is something people are always trying to prove, but never succeeding to convince 100% of the people. So if you can track down the source, make sure to mention what the source is, as per any wikipedia article, but that not everyone can believe it. I just did a search of the online archives of the Haile Selassie fan club e-mailing list, which goes back almost six years, and has incredibly comprehensive discussion of the minutest detail of the Emperor's life. And wouldn't you know it, apparently the name 'Romanework' has never even come up once in that list. Some of the best experts, even some who knew him personally, like Mr. Pankhurst, are on that list. So allow me some time to pose a query to that group, and see what various people there would have to say on the matter of 'Romanework'. The name 'Romanework' by the way, means 'Golden pomegranate', in Ethiopia I think this would not be considered a name for nobility. The name 'Altayech' means 'invisible', not a normal name, and this also seems a teeny bit suspicious to me, that Haile Selassie is alleged to have had a brief marriage with "Miss Invisible' before he was 20 years old!... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:57, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

"Altayech" means "Has not been seen" which if taken literally means "invisible" but in the context of names means "her equal has not been seen" and is in fact a common name in Ethiopia. The fact that Romanework is a name that has been regularly used within the Imperial dynasty can easily be deduced by reading the histories of the various branches of the dynasty in which several women by that name are mentioned. Sendeq 14:55 18 May, 2006

There is at least one woman of noble birth by the name of Romanework: the daughter of Ras Mengesha Yohannes, who was married to Iyasu V (as documented at Iyasu V of Ethiopia, & confirmed in Bahru Zewde's book). Further, I'm not certain what the damage would be to HSI's reputation if it came out that he had an earlier marriage/sexual liaison & a daughter from it: practically every Ethiopian Emperor is recorded as having more than one wife/mistress/concubine, despite the protests of the Ethiopian Church. By having one wife, Haile Selassie was one of the exceptions -- as was Yohannes IV, who was celebate after the death of his wife. It might make him suspect in European/American eyes, but only because they have put HSI on a pedestal. -- llywrch 01:59, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

The Almanach de Bruxelles uses as it's only source of information, members of the current and former reigning families whose geneologies it prepares. It is very reputable and no one has ever questioned it's veracity. It lists Princess Romanework and her heirs as decendents of Emperor Haile Selassie. Please go ahead and ask Professor Pankhurst about the parentage of Princess Romanework, and he will tell you that she was the fully recognized daughter of Emperor Haile Selassie. The fact that she is not mentioned by an online "fan club" is neither here nor there. Just because she is not as well known as someone like Princess Tenagnework doesn't mean she was of questionable parentage. There is no smear on the Emperor's reputation in Ethiopia or with the Orthodox church due to the fact that he had a daughter previous to his marriage with the Empress. The Emperor and Empress never violated the sanctity of their marriage once they entered it, so as far as the Church is concerned they are in good standing. There has never been any credible proof that any of the people that claim to have been fathered by the Emperor after his marriage, but Princess Romanework does not fall in this category. Most monarchs in Ethiopian history have had offspring outside of their marriage to their official consorts. None of Menelik II's children were with his wife Taitu. It does not make Emperor Haile Selassie any less of a pious and religious person. I'm not sure either how this hurts his reputation since the Princess was born before he was married to Empress Menen. Empress Menen's children by her previous marriages are not something people need to be "convinced" of. People without a knowledge of Ethiopian aristocratic circles may need convincing, but her children were and are publicly aknowledged members of the aristocracy and are treated by the Imperial family as close relatives. Again, if you trust Professor Pankhurst as a source, please go ahead and ask him about the Empress Menen's previous marriages and her children. Woizero Romanework Mengesha who is mentioned by llywrch as having been married to Iyasu V is a separate person, who was considerably older than Princess Romanework. Sendeq 15:26 1 May 2006.

Er, my point was that the name "Romanework" has been used in noble Ethiopian families as a name for their daughters, & I supplied the first example I could find. It was not my intent to suggest that they were the same person, & I apologize if that was how my comment came across. -- llywrch 04:37, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

No need to apologize at all. The name Romanework has a very long history in the Ethiopian Imperial dynasty. The sister of Emperor Lebna Dengel (also known as Dawit II, was named Romanework, and it is her son Hamelmal who founded the Gojjam branch of the Solomonid Dynasty. Sendeq 14:02 2 May 2006

If as was alleged by some contributes (without any foundation) that Princess Romanework was adopted, then why would only the Emperor adopt her and not his wife? If she had been an adopted daughter, both Emperor Haile Selassie and Empress Menen would have adopted her, not just the Emperor. Secondly, there are several people who were informally adopted by the Imperial couple and other members of their family, none were made Princes or Princesses and none were given the dignity of "Imperial Highness". Princess Romanework was both. User:Sendeq

[edit] Amharic

The Amharic text of his name uses the ":" separator for a space. In all other articles, the space is not put as ":" but as a simple space. Should we change the ":" to a space here, or add ":" to all articles using Ge'ez lettering? Both are used today, but usually the ":" is not very often used (e.g. in texts like newspapers).

Yom 16:13, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Race

The Royal Family of Ethiopia is white. They just have dark skin. They even look lighter than the avearge Ethiopian. But all Ethiopians have white features. 71.224.207.169 03:43, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

No you are wrong. You are assuming all black people look the same whereas there is in fact enormous genetic diversity in the black peoples of Africa. Ras Billy I 04:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Ditto. White people have features similar to Ethiopians because all populations outside of Africa are descended from a small group of Africans from Northeast Africa (i.e. Ethiopia, Somalia, the Horn). — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 18:56, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Ethiopia has been a mix of many ethnic groups for years. People have come from various parts of Africa and Arabia to settle Ethiopia in historic and prehistoric times so the features of Ethiopians vary a lot. Skin color is meaningless and since this is an encyclopedic article we need not worry about these issues anyway. Imperial78

There are a lot of ethnic groups, yes, but the amount of Arab blood in Ethiopians is minimal. There is in fact more Ethiopian blood in (peninsula) Arabs than the other way around. As I said before, Ethiopians look the way they do because they are most closely related to the ancestral population that left Africa and populated the rest of the world. Long noses are an adaptation of humans to arid climates and high altitude. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 15:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

No one said "Arab" blood. The Ethiopic languages are South Semitic along with Old South Arabian (Sabaeans) and Modern South Arabian. Neither the Ethiopians nor the Old South Arabians have "Arab" ancestors. Old South Arabian inscriptions are known in Ethiopia since ancient times. Imperial

You said people from the Arabian peninsula have settled in Ethiopia, so I thought that's what you meant. I do believe that Old South Arabians were probably at one point in the past no different from Ethiopians, though there's obviously an ethnic difference b/w Ethiopia and Yemen today (though not a huge one). It was more a pre-emptive strike against the myth that Ethiopians are descended from Sabaean migrants (which is false as the evidence points to a minimal migration community that lasted for a couple decades before disappearing through either intermarriage or return to Yemen), while the evidence points to an indigenous (which should be the default if it weren't for Conti Rossini's silly guess) nature (e.g. the existence of semitic-speaking peoples in Ethiopia at least since 2000 BC, but most likely being the origin of Semitic languages as per Afro-Asiatic archaisms not in other Semitic languages and not due to Cushitic substratum influence). If you want to continue the discussion, though, you should take it to my talk page, as it's entirely off-topic here. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 04:16, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

All people did did not come out of Northeast Africa. They came from present day Iraq. East Africa is from Cush son of Ham who landed on Mount Ararat after The Flood. Northeast Africa is from Mitzrayim, another son of Ham. Mitzrayim means Egypt in Hebrew. Ancient Egypt was not black at all. They were white just like Semites and other Mediterranean peoples are white.

The bible isn't an accurate determinant of geneological ties. I trust genetics in that. Here's an example of how your thinking is flawed: Ethiopians speak semitic languages, yet Ethiopians are black. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 00:05, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

To get onto the topic at hand again, Yom, I don't think the Emperor would agree with you that the Bible isn't accurate -- or that genetic so-called evidence (which is constantly shifting and contradicting itself, depending on "whose" scientists are funded by "which" governments pushing "which" ideologies) is in any way more reliable... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 00:43, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, Feqade, I really don't care what the Emperor thinks is reliable. I am speaking for myself, here. It's true, though, that gentics is a new field, and still has a lot of growth in accuracy and analysis to do. Either way, none of this is pertinent to the article, so I have no idea why we're having this discussion, so I would suggest that anyone who wants to continue it take it to someone's/ones' talk page/s. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 01:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

That is correct, as long as we are all in agreement that Selassie was black, something that both he himself and the world have considered to be self-evident. Ras Billy I 15:03, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I dont believe the Emperor would choose the Bible over science, either, and wouldnt want to rush to reject scientific evidence too quickly myself. Ras Billy I 01:03, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

"Black" is not a scientific or genetic term. Ethiopians are a mix of several populations which their genetics show, both caucasoid and negroid. "Black" does not mean anything. Imperial78

I agree that scientifically it is a fairly meaningless description. On the other hand socially and culturally the term black in relation to skin colour is charged with meaning, as Selassie very clearly stated in front of the UN in what is now known as his "War" speech. Ras Billy I 22:21, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Lest he be misquoted, what the Speech actually states is that the color of a man's skin should ideally be no more significant than the color of his eyes... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 22:33, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed that is what he said. My point is that he was also in effect saying that in the reality skin colour is of far more significance in the worlds of politics and culture than eye colour, and I think that while this is the case somewhat less today than in 1968 there is still a long way to go to see His Majesty's ideal become a reality. Essentially he was saying skin colour is far more important than eye colour in the present reality and that humanity needs to transcend this obsession with skin colour if it wants peace, neither of which has occurred to date. Ras Billy I 22:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I think saying that Ethiopian Royalty were white would cause considerable outrage among them. It is to be remembered that for years, Prime Minister Aklilu Haptewold's French born wife, Colette Haptewold, was never permitted to attend any court functions as the wife of the Prime Minister, but merely as one of many invited guests. Madame Haptewold was European and white, and it was not deemed seemly that a white woman be aknowledged as the wife of the Prime Minister. If the Ethiopian royal family had regarded itself as white, it would hardly have discriminated against Madame Haptewold in such a manner.

I have seen somewhere before that, in the 19th century, Semitic Ethiopians considered themselves "white" (as opposed to non-Semitic Africans), but French and other Europeans to be "red". Thus they still would have made a racial distinction between themselves and French. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 23:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Semetic Ethiopians in the 19th into the 20th never considered themselves white "nech", nor did they consider themselves black "tiqur". Europeans were considered "nech" or white, and sub-Saharan Africans for the most part were considered "tiqur" or black. Ethiopians of that age considered themselves a race apart that included red "qey", mixed-red "qey-dama" and dark "teyim". These catagories are outdated, and Ethiopians for the most part today consider themselves to be blacks. There are some who still subscribe to the old order of Ethiopians as a race apart from the white and black races. User:Sendeq

Are you sure it wasn't the Europeans they called Red and themselves white? I'm pretty sure that's what I read one time in Levine or someplace..ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 12:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I am absolutely certain. Ethiopians continue to refer to Europeans and Nech (white), and the term Qey (red) is still used to refer to Ethiopians or other blacks of light complexion. Qey-dama (literally red-checkered) is a medium complexioned person, and Teyim is a darker complected person. Tiqur is someone of the darkest complexion. It is generally used nowadays for the entire black race. User: Sendeq

"The Royal Family of Ethiopia is white. They just have dark skin. They even look lighter than the avearge Ethiopian. But all Ethiopians have white features. 71.224.207.169 03:43, 18 June 2006 (UTC)" ""Black" is not a scientific or genetic term. Ethiopians are a mix of several populations which their genetics show, both caucasoid and negroid. "Black" does not mean anything. Imperial78" -the terms race, caucasoid and negroid are obscolete and have no legitimate scientific meaning. race is a social construct, someone apparently didn't get the memo. the monikers "black" and "white" are just as useless, but people generally get what you mean in context. lol @ "The Royal Family of Ethiopia is white. They just have dark skin.", classic. well, we all know (in context) who started the "race" debate... wikipedia needs to ban the word "race". that will put an end to this bs.

They are white but have dark skin, lol indeed. Unfortunately wikipedia is duty bound to reflect the world as it is not as we would like it to be and while I agree that scientifically race is a dubious concept in the world it is a very real concept. Given that the Rastafari do take concepts of race seriously the issue of Selassie's race is a real issue, SqueakBox 17:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My revert

I accidentally hit enter when I was trying to hit ' in my edit summary, so I'll state my reason here. The article is talking about the "word" "I" (first person-pronoun), not the letter, which is not inherently a first person pronoun. Also, the Tewahedo faith is not actually monophysite (it is in fact considered insulting) but miaphysite, like other Oriental Orthodox churches. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 20:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Rastafari does indeed refer to the word I not the letter I (which is inherently meaningless in its condition of being a letter) as Yom correctly states. Ras Billy I 20:41, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Armenian Orphans

I added info about the Armenian orphans Haile adopted, but some of it should probably be moved to a seperate article about them, or their leader. I didn't want to start a seperate article about them with the transliteration I was using, since it looked like a French transliteration and I would prefer someone with better knowledge of standard transliteration do this... Thanks! --RaffiKojian 05:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New main pic

I dont like the new main pic at all. I can understand the reluctance to use the same pic here as at Rastafari movement but the current one is an artist's depiction and IMO greatly inferior for use as the opening picture. I will look into seeing whether the pics the Spanish version of wikipedia uses and want to know what other people feel? SqueakBox 18:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] font?

Instead of the Ge'ez I see a bunch of little squares which means that the current font has no representations for those characters. What font would I need? Can anyone see these characters? Perhaps it would be better to have a jpeg instead of a font that most people do not have.

Jason

i agree, what are the little squares meant to represent? 60.241.157.7 11:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The font you need in your computers font folder is called GFZemen.ttf. You can download it for free at several places on the web. Without it, you will see only little squares or question marks. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 12:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Thnx. It was obvious that these ??? were the real thing as they are to be found all over both wikipedia and the wider internet, SqueakBox 17:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

This is an issue for WP:Village Pump if you want to change policy but has no relation to this article and further removing of the unreadable characters will be treated as vandalism and may result in the editor being blocked. You have been warned, SqueakBox 01:58, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title of Haile Selassie

The grand nephew of Haile Selassie, Asfa-Wossen Asserate once said in an Interview in Germany, that the Title of Emperor Selassie was not Lion of Judah, this was rather a misunderstanding. The original German Interwiev:

Bei der Nennung des Löwen von Juda heißt es dann immer, das sei Haile Selassie. Wobei wir alle wissen, wer der wirkliche Löwe von Juda ist. Das ist Jesus Christus. Doch das ist ja nicht der Titel der äthiopischen Kaiser. Das ist ein Missverständnis. Die Europäer hatten das falsch verstanden. Im Mittelalter schrieben die äthiopischen Kaiser an verschiedene europäische Königshäuser. Die Briefe fingen an mit: Der Löwe von Juda wird siegen. Das heißt aber nichts anderes als: Ich bin Christ. Jesus wird siegen. Da die Europäer ihre Briefe aber immer mit der Nennung der eigenen Titel begannen, also mit "XY der II., Kaiser von..., König von..., Graf von...", dachten sie, der äthiopische Briefkopf trüge den Titel des Kaisers und fingen dann an, ihn den Löwen von Juda zu nennen.

Translated:

If it comes to the lion of Juda, it is always said, that it would be Haile Selassie. But we all know, who the real lion of Juda is; Jesus Christ. However this is not the title of the Ethiopian Emperors. That is merely a misunderstanding. The Europeans misunderstood it. In the medieval ages the Ethiopian Emperors wrote letters to certain european monarchs. The Introduction of the letter was: The Lion of Juda shall be victiourisly. Though this just means: I'm a Christian, Jesus will be victiourisly. Due to the fact that europeans always introduced a letter with the naming of their own title, e.g. "XY the II., Emperor of..., King of..., Earl of...", they thought, the Ethiopian letter started with the title of the Emperor and so they began calling him the lion of Juda

I just thought this might be revelant. (I apologize for any grammatical mistakes, but I'm from Senegal and my English is quite limited) --84.146.230.235 22:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Asfa-Wossen Asserate (or Asfaw Wossen Asrate) is a bit more distant a relative to Emperor Haile Selassie than a grand-nephew. His great-great grandfather, Ras Darge Sahle Selassie was the brother of Emperor Haile Selassie's grandmother, Tenagnework Sahle Selassie. His great-grandmother Woizero Tisseme Darge was Ras Makonnen's first cousin. Thus Asfa-Wossen's grandfather, Ras Kassa Hailu (son of Woizero Tisseme) was Emperor Haile Selassie's first cousin once removed. That would make Asfa-Wossen the Emperor's first cousin thrice removed.

[edit] Sightings

It is being reported on various Rastafari forums that Haile Sellassie was sighted in Ethiopia on November 14th, 2006. This should be researched. Here is the initial bulletin posted on MySpace:

"His Majesty sighted in Ithiopia : posted on myspace bulletins by Ras Iyahkayah Haile Selassie I seen today Nov 14/06 in Ethiopia! We heard this morning of children playing outside an Ethiopian Church near Lake Tana in Ethiopia. Astonished, the children ran into the Ethiopian church reporting to priests that they saw a man (later said to be HIM) in a flame of fire with several lions around the fire. It is said that the Orthodox Church called for praying and fasting all day today."

Please give us a url so we can investigate, though this is more for Rastafari movement than this article, IMO, SqueakBox 23:38, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is a URL: http://forums.rasta-man.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1163600736, and another http://groups.msn.com/RastaItes/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=6007&LastModified=4675598659438993090

[edit] Reggae and cannabis

"who have popularized his name and character through reggae music and their use of cannabis as a sacrament with which to worship him." was added tot he opening (which expanded through another editor today), its easy to source that cannabis and reggae are both so very connected to His Majesty that they deserve to be linked in the opening, SqueakBox 23:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please, before you remove the ????

Please read WP:ETHM. It only looks like ???? because you do not have GFZemen or another Ethiopic TrueType font in your computer's font folder. (This should not be an issue with newer computers.) It is not to be removed, just because you have an older computer or can't see it - that isn't fair to other people who do have the font, and can see it. Thank you. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 22:39, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

• It's not a matter of me having an older computer. It's a matter of me not having my font set to Ethiopian. I'll leave it, but I don't suspect most people have their computers set to Ethiopian font unless they are Ethiopian or understand the Ethiopian language. It looks very strange to have a bunch of question marks in an English language article. It looks like someone inserted incorrect coding. I don't really see the point of including non-English fonts and words in English language articles. Unless the reader understands the other language, it isn't very useful or educational.Spylab 16:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

It is not just Ethiopian. For instance Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama, a very similar article and a different culture uses the same ?????.--Ztep 17:37, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. I'll reiterate what I said before which is that the place for this discussion is Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). The discussion is not relevant to this page or this particular article, SqueakBox 23:47, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cannabis and the law

Do we have any information on whether cannabis was illeagal in Ethiopia during HIM's reign? It would be interesting for the Rastafari section. According to

it is illegal but often unenforced, SqueakBox 19:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I read once somewhere where one of the Jamaican Rastas who visited Ethiopia in the 1950s reported that it could be bought in the marketplace as long as it was consumed at home... Sorry I don't remember where I read that... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 19:36, 15 February 2007 (UTC)