From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Hagop Kazazian Pasha article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability

	This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
Additional information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following to the template call: <!-- 1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points are appropriately cited. --> |B-Class-1=yes/no <!-- 2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain major omissions or inaccuracies. --> |B-Class-2=yes/no <!-- 3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content. --> |B-Class-3=yes/no <!-- 4. It is free from major grammatical errors. --> |B-Class-4=yes/no <!-- 5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. --> |B-Class-5=yes/no

An entry from Hagop Kazazian Pasha appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on January 13, 2007.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] See comments
	This article is supported by the Politics and government work group.
	This article is supported by the Military work group.

	This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Turkey, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Turkey-related topics. Please visit the project page if you would like to participate. Happy editing!
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	To-do list:	edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
No to-do list assigned; you can help us in improving the articles in the same category

Contents 1 Comments 1.1 Removal of uncited sentence 1.2 Bezciyan 1.3 Armenian Catholic?

[edit] Comments

[edit] Removal of uncited sentence

I have removed the following sentence:

Due to the state-sponsored destruction of the Armenian community in the Turkish state which commenced in 1894-95 and reached its apex in 1915, the remnants of Kazazian's extended family were scattered penniless to the far ends of the earth.^{[citation needed]}

Hagop Kazazian lived alone with his elderly mother and had no wife or children. He lived between 1833-1891. I can find no facts supporting the sentence above. Please note that this is not a dispute about the events of 1915, just a dispute as to whether or not Kazazian's family was affected in 1915. --Free smyrnan 13:07, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Good article, and I wouldn't worry about this exclusion. If there is a specific account of what happened to his family after he died, it would be worth discussing whether it should be included, but it is of questionable importance since it is not him and it is post-mordem... --RaffiKojian 02:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

True, it is a good article. Good job smyrnan! It is nice to see articles like this from time to time :) Baristarim 03:00, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! --Free smyrnan 06:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bezciyan

Does anyone here know if Hagop Kazazian had any brothers or sisters or who his cousins were. Where was his family from before they setled in Constantinople/Istanbul? Was he in any way related to Artin Amira Kazaz, formerly known as Bezciyan? I have often wondered if it was a family connection that brought about my family's prominence and their close associations with the Sublime Porte.

Artin Bezciyan shows up plenty on a google search -- biographies are also there (Turkish). "Kazaz" - meaning silk trader was a "lakab" - an almost formal nickname. Similarity of last name may not signify kinship, Ottoman Armenians seemed to have changed last names sometimes to correspond with their or their father's occupation. --Free smyrnan 06:14, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

You are so very knowledgeable. Do you know anything about Abdul Messih Kazazian who was working in the Sultan's palace?

Just a financial history and Ottoman history buff. If no secondary sources exist, if you know the Sultan and the particular post, you can check out archives. Also, if you know the district of Istanbul he lived in, you can check out the records of the district church. Abd-ul Mesih (slave of the Messiah in Arabic) is a weird name for an Armenian though. Are you sure that was his real name? Also, please sign your comments. --Free smyrnan 07:01, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that was his real name. It was during the reign of Sultan Abdul Hamid II just like Hagop Kazazian Pasha. That is why I thought that there may be a familial connection. Ab-dul Messih went to Saint Savior Armenian Catholic Church in Galata. How do I sign my comments?

Well, why don't you contact someone from the Armenian Catholic community? A quick google tells me the current bishop's name is Hovhannes Çolakyan. They may be able to help you track down your ancestor. Also, there is a page on the history of that church, and the church is operational. Just google a bit (most of it in Turkish though, don't know whether you speak it). To sign, put in 4 tilde's, next to one another -- this gives more detail: Help:Editing. --Free smyrnan 08:36, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Armenian Catholic?

I am asking for citation that Agop Paşa was Catholic. I have not seen any references that make this claim, especially the book by Çarkçıyan, Yervant Gomidas would be relevant, as the author is a Catholic priest and mentions it particularly if someone was Catholic. Also, in the biography provided by Çarkçıyan, it is mentioned that the order given by the Pope was delivered through the Patriarch Azaryan to Agop Paşa. So, if there are references that state Agop Paşa is Catholic, please provide them. --Free smyrnan 05:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)