Talk:Hafez

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Hafez is part of WikiProject Iran, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Iran-related topics. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of objectives.
???	This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the Project's quality scale.
???	This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the Project's importance scale.
	After rating the article, please provide a short summary on the article's ratings summary page to explain your ratings and/or identify the strengths and weaknesses.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
B	This article has been rated as b-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] (If you rated the article, please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)

I was always told hafez was called hafez because he had memorized the quran and 25 different tafsirs. I was under the impression that he was a devout individual and his allusions to wine throughout his poetry where metaphors of a divine love. Am i wrong? this article makes hafez out to be some heathen hedonistic alcoholic bum. It does a poor job of relaying the most important information about him.

I read this article with amazement. There is hardly any authentic information about Hafiz' life that we know, other than the fact that he lived in Shiraz and at what time. His life is as mysterious as his poetry. This article seems more like a pop magazine article about Hafiz rather than an encyclopedic article. Especially with childish claims like "he had memorized a zillion works of x and y and z" or "at age 21 he worked in a bakery". None of this is factual or provable. I suggest we cut out most of the meaningless hearsay and myth and curtail the article to a minimal but factual one. I would be happy to contribute. Ardavan 13:19, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

If myths are persistant enough and widely enough spread, then I think it is reasonable to report on them in a style similar to the current article. I think though it would be useful that these "myths" are somewhat better referenced. I agree here with you Ardavan. Refdoc 17:41, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Have made a stab at adding sub categories that try to tease the 'fact' (such as it is) from the folk-tales. Also various additions. Fontgirl, 19:26, 11 Feb 2005

Thank you Fontgirl, for your modifications. I think they made the article much better. I made two changes. One is that I changed "erotic" to "love", because Hafiz' stongest point is his subtlety and multi-dimentional or multi-interpretability of his art. I think very few people would characterize his poetry, or even aspects of it, "erotic", although even that interpretation is also possible. The other is about Western scholars have changed the gender in translation. I take issue with that. In Modern Persian langauge we do not have "gender" (no "he/she/it") and the only places when in his poem there is a gender, is when the subject is obviously male or female according to the context and not according to the pronoun. In such cases, I don't think there is any room for confusion. But if you (or others) have specific sonnets in mind about this, I would be happy to know which ones they are. Ardavan 06:01, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ardavan; have added a fuller and more subtle passage on this, thus...

In Turkish & Persian there is & was no gender in the third person pronoun. Consequently, many translators into English have assumed 'she' instead of 'he' as the object of affection. But by examining the verse's context, it is possible to discern that the beloved is in fact male. Western scholars have commented on this apparent gender-changing in the poetry; e.g. The Theme of Wine-drinking and the Concept of the Beloved in Early Persian Poetry, in: Studia Islamica, volume 13, 1960.

Fontgirl 20:09, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Sorry due to work I am not able to come here often. I removed the above statement from the article because it is plain false. It suggests that there are homosexual poems in Hafez' work, but some Western scholars have intentionally translated "he" to "she". I do not know of any Hafez translations, but I certainly know his poems in the original language. I can say I live with those poems. Are you saying that Hafez was a homosexual? Ardavan 07:01, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

And you ask _us_ to 'remove the myths' about Hafiz? I'm afraid that you would be laughed out of any western conference on Hafiz.

• What gender are the Arabic words used, in Persian poetry, for the beloved?

• Were, or were not, women totally secluded and forbidden from men's gatherings and houses (unless married to the male)? Were women permitted to be seen drunk and wearing a shirt, in the public street? Is this, thus, the description of a woman? ...

"Disheveled hair, perspiring, with laughing lips and drunk / With open shirt, singing a ghazal, a jug of wine in hand." (No. 22).

• Why is there frequent mention of soft hair budding on the upper lip and aaround the jawline of the beloved? (No. 3, 35, 62, 67, 90, 153, 307, 359, 386, 454). Did Persian women grow beards? Hafez even expresses the unwanted effects of growing a beard and the beloved youth growing up (No. 155).

• How do you explain the military color of lyrical imagery?

• How would you translate No. 396? ...

What choices have I, if I should not fall in love with that child? / Mother Time does not possess a better son.

• Have you ever seen an uncensored copy of the Encyclopædia Iranica?

Fontgirl, 20:39. 24th Feb 2005

I am not particularly worried if I "would be laughed out of any western conference on Hafiz" as I have a degree in Persian Literature from the University most authoritative on Persian language in the world, as Persian is my mother tongue and as I teach Persian in high school. And all of that is pale compared to my own love for Hafez' untranslatable wizadry. Of the Ghazal numberrs that you listed above, none of them contains anything that even remotely suggests any homosexual tendencies or promotion of such deviations. A quick look at your edit history explains where this comes from. Your "beard" statement is simply nonsense and untrue. Apparently my Hafez book has a different numbering scheme than yours. Perhaps you can exactly write down which of his Ghazals is referring to beards (which you seem to suggest it's a "he" who is translated as "she" in "western languages").

The No. 22 that you mention, which in my book it is not No. 22, but I immediately recognized which one you mean form your translation, is clearly about a female and not a male. The couplet immediately after it mentions "chashm Narges" (Narcissus eyes) which is a quite commonly used symbolism in Persian poetry and is ALWAYS female. You left that part out. Besides, if you could understand the symbolic nature of this type of poetry and what they are talking about, you would know that even if it was a male, or lion or eagle or anything else, makes no difference in the essence and the concept for which it stands for and symbolizes. The fact that some "western experts" have made a carnal interpretation of is says it all.

In connection with that same Ghazal you write: "Were, or were not, women totally secluded and forbidden from men's gatherings and houses (unless married to the male)? Were women permitted to be seen drunk and wearing a shirt, in the public street? Is this, thus, the description of a woman?" -- well, first of all, the scene of that Ghazal is not in a bar or pub (Meykada in Persian), rather, it is at midnight and in privacy. But to answer your question, since you are making such direct interpretation of everything, then why don't you ask yourself was there a public wine house in the Islamic society of Hafez' time? If there was, then sure, there could also be female wine servers. The existence of a public wine house in that society would be much more shocking than female servants working in such a place.

Regarding Encyclopedia Iranica, no, I haven't seen it. Regarding the Ghazal numbers you are asking, it is obvious that your book has different numbers from mine. Regarding "military color of lyrical imagery" I have no idea what you are talking about.

There have been many respectable Western scholars who were very well familiar with Hafez' works. Goethe is certainly no small figure. How did he miss this obviously "homoeroticism" (I learned this word by reviewing your edit history) of Hafez and never mentioned it at all? Edward G. Browne was another Western scholar who was well familiar with Persian literature. How come he never mentioned anything about such aspects of Hafez? Reynold A. Nicholson was another Western scholar who wrote extensively about Hafez. There are many others. And what about Iranian scholars? None of them have enough brain to understand their own native language and see the "homoerotic" aspects of Hafez, but only a certain "western conferences on Hafez" are capable of seeing it? Would the Islamic Republic of Iran include the poetry of a "homoerotic" poet in the books and educational system of Iran? Ardavan 07:22, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Evidence: Columbia University's Encyclopædia Iranica - entries on Hafez; see especially vii and viii. Are you going to argue with the definitive multi-volume encyclopedia of Iranian culture, editied and published by Columbia University and funded by the National Endowment for the Humanities? (A free font download is required to handle the need for textual accenting.) Fontgirl, 14:46, 26th Feb 2005

Thank you for the link. Sadly, even after installing the font the text is with strange characters, making it nearly impossible for me to read it meaningfully. Perhaps you can copy and paste the exact part of that article (with exact reference to the section it comes from). I would be most interested to see what they have written about this alleged "homoeroticality" of Hafez' lyrics. Nevertheless, are you disputing what I have already presented to you? The fact that in Islamic Republic of Iran Hafez' poems are not only included in the educational system throughout, they are highly respected? What about the numerous Iranian and Western scholars who have written extensively on Hafez and nobody has ever before mentioned anything like this -- for centuries!; until I guess according to what you seem to be telling me, just recently such "aspects" of his poetry have been discovered and revealed to us from certain "Western quarters". Isn't that a little strange? At any rate, please point out exactly where in that encyclopedia it says that Hafez' poems were of a homosexual nature. I find it mildly amusing that you are trying to convince someone who has read Hafez all his life in the original langauge, and happens to be a teacher who, of all subjects, teaches Persian language and literature in high school, that he doesn't understand the poetry of Hafez as well as certain Western quarters do. Ardavan 19:15, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A minor point - Iranian girls are pale skinned, but dark haired, making adolescent girls particularly prone to have "soft hair budding on the upper lip" - until they get into the habit of pulling them out - usually when a bit older. This is a normal feature and I have so far not seen one Iranian girl who would not have during/shortly after puberty have this feature. I am at a loss whether this would ever have been seen as a mark of particular beauty - it is not now - but in a poem, in a girl I would mostly see it as a sign of youth, naturalness, lack of vanity, naievty etc, but I have not studied literature Refdoc 20:06, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

That is exactly what you just described. It is a sort of "youthful or puberty peach fuzz" which both men and women get, but in women it is of course softer and milder. If you pay close attention to any Persian miniature painting, this "peach fuzz" is almost always present on the sideburns (and even above the lips) of the female wine stewardesses. That has nothing to do with homosexuality or homoeroticism as Fontgirl seems to insist on calling it. Ardavan 21:00, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This article , in many aspects seems very low-quality to me.It provides very little useful information about Hafez and most of it is about folk myths.The section "Hafez in contemporary Iranian culture" is very poor in particular.And there are phrases like :"His work is also notable for making frequent reference to astrology and displaying a knowledge of astronomy and the zodiac." which do not seem appropriate , Hafez's poetry is not about astronomy, nor displays any extensive knowledge of it.I think we should cooperate and expand this article.Pasha Abd 00:57, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Hafez and the Persian pederastic tradition 2 Ethnic takeover of article 3 incorrect interpretation! 4 The Miniature

[edit] Hafez and the Persian pederastic tradition

Why are we still denying things that everybody knows? Haiduc 01:52, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

You have not provided any sources that identify him or his poetry as pederastic. SouthernComfort 02:45, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic takeover of article

I would request other editors, preferably some with knowledge of Persian, to repair the damage caused by the editor who posted "I got the data from a persian website, Surely Persian scholars who are experts in persian language know more that a foreigner!!" as justification for the tacky art and sanitizing edits. Haiduc 02:42, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

• I will surely restore the old picture of Hafez, as it is certainly more accurate since it was made at a time closer to when he lived. However, I am open to creating an image gallery to hold the other photo--among others--at the bottom of the article. Unfortunately, I know nothing about Hafez, but I don't see why the editors have deleted the old poetry. Why haven't they simply expanded the article by adding the new verse? They deleted much of the explanation of it, as well.--Primetime 03:06, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
• Does it look ok, now?--Primetime 03:32, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, that is an acceptable compromise. I will expand the caption of the book cover to clarify its provenance. Haiduc 10:53, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] incorrect interpretation!

The european translator, assumed that since hafez was a follower of sufism and love in sufism had sometimes been pederastic, therefore the beloved should have been a young boy. Well, I am looking at the persian version of the verses translated by Henry Wilberforce-Clarke, and as person whose mother tongue is persian it seems to me that the beloved was an adult female rather than a young boy. Since hafez is using pronouns to refer to his beloved and the cupbeareand and pronouns in persian are the same for both genders, one could go both ways but in persian we always use the phrase 'lock of hair of the beloved' to refer to females (since they have long hair you know). Besides anyone who is familiar with hafez poetry and have an advance understanding of medieval persian language, would know that Hafez is very unlikely to have pederastic inclinations. I am well aware of the existance pederasty in many teachings of sufism and I have seen the pederastic sentiments in Jami and Saadi poems but Not all persian poets that follow sufism have pederastic inclinations!!.

If you think it's incorrectly phrased, why don't you change it, instead of delete it?--Primetime 19:23, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

That is not an alternative. What matters here is not the opinion of the Wikipedia editors but the scholarship on the topic. That being said, we should also note that a native speaker of Persian is a native speaker of Persian in the 21st century, and it is not reasonable to impute motives to Hafez based on the use of the language seven hundred years after his birth. Not only has the language changed - the culture has changed too, to say the least. Haiduc 23:59, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid there are people here who have another agenda than the truth. In the western world there are two big lobbies nowadays. The first one being the jewish lobby, and the more recent one is the gay lobby. One of the ways for the gay lobby to justify it's way of living is to tag some famous people (especially of the past) with something related to homosexuality. And that's what's happening here. And I as an Iranian, it's the first time that I hear about pederastry of persian poets. Now to answer you one by one ; to fontgirl: I'm afraid the link you gave above about encyp. Iranica doesn't say anything about Hafiz being a pederast or even suggesting anything close to it. READ IT AGAIN AND TELL ME WHERE YOU SEE EVEN AN ALUSION TO LOVE FOR A YOUNG BOY, please. As for women having mildly some hair above their lips, it is still very common and at that time the removal of the hair was done for the first time when the girl got married. to Haiduc : you are definitely from that gay lobby. Let me tell you that there is no difference between the persian of 14th century and the one of 21 century from a litterary point of you. The mistake you make all is two fold; -First there is no pronoun/adjective distinguishing between male or female in persian and -Second anything said in mystical poems referes to god and love of god and the dissolution of the lover (god seeker) and the beloved (god) or in more philosophical term the subject (ego) and the object (egolessness), and those translators who did not take into consideration these two factors were/are just amators wasting their time and the time and energy of their readers.F Mir 05:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Leaving your opinions about me and my opinions about you aside, please consult this link which touches on the homoerotic conventions of the ghazal tradition. Haiduc 05:23, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, there are more than five hundred lines in this link you mentioned, talking about many opinions and you just pick up two lines containing the word "homoerotic", that I don't know which idiot has written. Now let me give you another link [1] where they precisely talk about ghazal, it's formation and it's particularities. And they mention : "The idealized "beloved" in the ghazal tradition is typically a woman, or God." And then why is it believed to be homoerotic????? "The use of masculine grammatical structures suggests that many poems carry homoerotic undertones." As I said it is the structure of the persian language which does not have any distinction between genders, which has made some so-called scholars (probably those with an agenda not related to mystic poetry) to makeing a deliberate mistake of talking about "masculin grammatical structure" while it is neutral in persian. Neutral meaning precisely that if a man wrote it "The idealized "beloved" in the ghazal tradition is typically a woman, or God." And the paragraph ends by ; "The ghazal rarely speaks about specific encounters; rather, it conceives of love as a metaphor for interactions among humans, God, and the world." How about you, Haiduc, going a little bit further in your analysis than just fulfilling your agenda (as I know your contribution in wikipedia very well) and looking for the word homoerotic? 74.57.251.217 21:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Miniature

I deleted the miniature in this page because of its low artistic merit (not the soft nudity it contains). It is actually a pleasurable and imaginative piece of pop art but not in line with Hafiz's style of poetry which is no doubt Persian High Art. I think it gives the page a better look if replaced with a classical miniature belonging to the same era.