Talk:Hadrian's Wall
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Note: revisions of this article from prior to February 2002 are under Hadrians Wall.
It is usually written Hadrian's Wall with a capital "W". User:Tony Vignaux
- Article has been so renamed from Hadrian's wall. --Brion 02:23 Oct 8, 2002 (UTC)
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[edit] euphemism?
The article says "The name is also sometimes used as a euphemism for the border between Scotland and England, despite it not following the modern border." Is there any evidence for this? I don't remember hearing it so used, ever, and I wondered what the justification was for this statement. I don't mean to sound hostile, just puzzled. Nevilley
- This usage is indeed current and immediately understood in the UK. (Or I've heard it a few times since I moved here a coupla years ago.) I didn't originally insert it into the article, but I did move it to the first para for that reason. - David Gerard 10:32, Feb 12, 2004 (UTC)
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- Hmm. We may have to agree to differ over this. I certainly don't have the inclination for an edit war! But I must say that I still cannot imagine how this alleged contemporary usage actually works, unless it is being used by people who are simply - ah - wrong. In which case it would need writing up in a different way perhaps. But if you said to me "I'm going North of Hadrian's Wall" I would not hear that you were going to Scotland - I would probably (perhaps unfairly to the west of the country!) assume that you were heading for Northumberland. Are you saying that people actually do use it that way? I've lived in England, north and south, for rather more than a couple of years - well, getting on for fifty actually! - and it just does not have that meaning for me. It is not, in my view of usage, "current and immediately understood". If the article said "It is occasionally used to represent the Anglo-Scottish border by people who have no idea what they are talking about and who also think that whales are fish and the tromba marina is a brass instrument but we are mentioning here that they do this because it has happened once or twice" then I might have more sympathy with it although I don't really think that cataloguing misconceptions is a core role for the wiki. :) Right, I have ranted, I will leave it! Off to find another windmill to tilt at - Nevilley
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- "I still cannot imagine how this alleged contemporary usage actually works, unless it is being used by people who are simply - ah - wrong."
- I think that would be the one - the north starts at Watford Gap or something. I don't have any deep affection for it, but I have heard it used colloquially, and being wrong and stupid never stopped a colloquial usage. Dunno if that's encyclopaedic enough - kill it if you like :-) - David Gerard 17:28, Feb 12, 2004 (UTC)
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- I've certainly heard "North of Hadrian's Wall" to mean Scotland - usually as a jovial insult, i.e. "the barbarous land to the North" DJ Clayworth 17:38, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)
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- Oh well, fair enough. Not worth getting out of one's pram over. :) Nevilley
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Still, this is simply wrong (that is, it is not commonly said) and should be corrected, as should the assertion at the end that HW is a general figure for an impassable barrier. I'll edit it unless someone has a good case.John Wheater 10:16, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Past tense
Why is so much of this article in the past tense? - it has a lot of statements like "Hadrian's Wall was ..." and "H's W ran ..." I know that some of them are correct (it was built etc) but surely others are wrong given that it still (mostly) is, it still (mostly) runs etc etc? Nevilley 23:12, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
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- Hadrian's Wall (as it was originally built), no longer exists. Only ruins of it exist today. It's a mere shadow of its former impressiveness.
[edit] Q&A: Questions and Answers
I've got a couple of questions, on the risk of sounding stupid. But could someon indulge me? --Okay: you're stupid. (Just kidding).
Q: How do you defend a wall with cavalry? There doesn't appear to be any logic in this, the way I see it Cavalry is an offensive unit not much good at defence. --(By the way, "defence" means the removal of fences).
A: A good offense is a good defense. The calvary travels quickly to reinforce the troops at any location on the Wall that needs them (there were signal towers at regular intervals along its length). The calvary (armed with lances) could also ride out and meet any force that was assaulting the wall, or (without lances) chase down and capture or kill anyone trying to climb over the wall.
Q: I caught the Hollywood film "Arthur" the other day, and their answer seemed a bit idiotic. They had the gates opened to let the Saxons (?!?) in, and then assaulting them from the flanks. This tactic defeats the purpose of a wall altogether, doesn't it?
A: Yes, it does. Even more idiotic is an army with naval transport that disembarks on the wrong side of the Wall. Such an army would have landed on beaches south of the Wall, not north of it. But because they were too stupid to think of this, in the spirit of fair play, Arthur let them through. :-) For a more in-depth critique of the logical flaws of the movie, see King Arthur (movie).
Q: How did the Picts ever get past the Wall? To me Hadrian's Wall seems like a considerable obstacle. But the Picts, none the less, broke through it. How?
A: Line defenses are stretched out. It is usually more effective to concentrate troops in centralized locations, to strike out in retaliative force with a superior army than to spread your defenses thinly over a long line. The offensive strategy to counter the long line defense is to concentrate attack at a single point along the line (or in large-scale conflicts, at several points simultaneously). For an example of this, see the Atlantic Wall and Omaha Beach.
--Questions by Tokle 16:33, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- IIRC, wasn't the wall 'closed' after the invasion in the 370's or something? The Picts muct have broken down the gates. Dude, Arthur is Hollywood, not Historic. They see history like a constellation. Ya, it kinda looks like something, but it would be better if it was this! - Cor --The Hollywood phrase based on real events is used very loosely. Such movies have the trappings of history, but are usually just fictional stories with an historical theme.
A1b: The wall would still have worked because it forces the enemy to funnel through a specific area so you can plan accordingly. Without the wall they would have had to made broader plans with more variables. --The wall was more of a symbol than anything else. And a highly intimidating one. Would you want to attack an Empire powerful enough to erect a wall along an entire border? Surely, such an empire could send armies to retaliate if you attacked their wall. Fear of reprisal alone would be a major factor in an enemy's reasoning.
A2: The wall looks low enough to jump over... I dont see how anyone could have found this difficult to overcome with some ramps and a bit of manpower. Especially considering the huge seige engines that have been made to get over Castle walls. --The current Wall is in ruins. The original Wall stood 5 to 6 meters tall (15 to 20 feet). Troops with ladders and ropes could have climbed over it easily. However, would you really want to? The psychological impact must have been substantial. Though, it may amuse you to learn that Hadrian may have ordered the Wall built to keep his troops occupied (and thereby reduce dissention in the ranks) as much as for any other reason.
- Following up slightly, the wall wasn't all the defense, it is on a hill and in front of a ditch, with a road running directly behind it. The hill is untraversable in many places, and the distance of sight is large. --Aratheking 17:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
The wall was abandoned by Rome at the same times as everything else and we know from the historical record that the Brits started fighting each other soon afterwards. Wall is abandoned (got Saxon's to worry about in the fertile south and all that) the Picts march stright in. Tobias1 15:17, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Distracting blank spaces
Formatting that encases the framed table of contents in text, in just the way a framed map or image is enclosed within the text, is now available: {{TOCleft}} in the HTML does the job.
Blank space opposite the ToC, besides being unsightly and distracting, suggests that there is a major break in the continuity of the text, which may not be the case. Blanks in page layout are voids and they have meanings to the experienced reader. The space betweeen paragraphs marks a brief pause between separate blocks of thought. A deeper space, in a well-printed text, signifies a more complete shift in thought: note the spaces that separate sub-headings in Wikipedia articles.
A handful of thoughtless and aggressive Wikipedians revert the "TOCleft" format at will. A particularly aggressive de-formatter is User:Ed g2s
The reader may want to compare versions at the Page history. --Wetman 20:21, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Map of the Wall
Beland requested a map for this article on Wikiproject Maps so I whipped up a little something. The map isn't very detailed, but I'll try to refine it a bit over the next few days. --NormanEinstein 21:06, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Please, where is the map?
Please?
Thank You.
hopiakuta ; [[ <nowiki> </nowiki> { [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] } ;]] 05:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Hadrian's Dyke?
According to Dykes (surname), "Hadrian's Wall, also referred to in some texts as Hadrian's Dyke". I don't know whether that refers to dyke as in the vallum (ie, ditch) or dyke as in Offa's (ie, wall). Anyone come across this name before? A Google search on the term "Hadrian's Dyke" throws up three quotations: two from From Ritual to Romance and one from a poem. Telsa 08:03, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Was Hadrian's Wall influenced by the Great Wall of China?
Some Chinese academics living in the PRC claim that cross-cultural communications through the Silk Road enabled Romans to know the concept of building a defensive wall against invading people whom you can't subdue. The hypothesis is based on the fact that the mini Great Walls was first built during the Warring States era by the feuding states, and when Qin unified China it unified the various defensive walls. It was long after that the Silk Route opened during the Western Han dynasty, and by the time the Hadrian's Wall was built it was already Eastern Han dynasty in China in which the Silk Route was already well-established.
Are there non-Chinese scholarly support to this hypothesis? --JNZ 07:14, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Answer: The building of defensive walls is actually much older than the Great Wall. An early example can be found in 3rd millenium BC Mesopotamia, whereas the earliest parts of the Great Wall date back to the 7th century BC. Similar problems with raiding nomads lead everywhere to similar solutions.
See middle section of the thread:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=8822&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=100
[edit] Some questions unanswered by the article:
How much of Hadrian's Wall is still standing?
- What is the total length of the remaining fragments?
- Are there any full-height sections left? No there arn't although I beleive a short stretch was constructed at vindolanda as part of the exhibits
- Where are they?
- About what percentage of the Wall's construction materials are still in place?
- Or, how much of the wall's materials have been removed from it?
How do the ruins compare to the original?
Concerning the replica built for the movie King Arthur:
- How big was the replica? 1 km long
- Was the section built at full scale?
- Was it of authentic design?
- Was it left in place after the movie was finished? That is, is it still there for tourists to visit?
- Where is/was it located in relation to the actual Hadrian's Wall? In a field in County Clare, Ireland. Hadrian's Wall is in Northern England.
[edit] Great Wall of China
I deleted the following comment: ..."quite short in comparison to the Great Wall of China", because a) it is out of context b) the Great Wall of China was worked on for more than 2000 years and thus does not constitute a single line of defence, but a row of interrelated defensive walls, erected by different dynasties, and not rarely hundreds of miles apart. Whereas the Hadrian's Wall constitutes a single work project.
Actually, as a side-note the combined Roman defensive system (England, Rhine, Danube, Arabian desert, North Africa) outdid the contemporary Chinese Han walls both in quantity and quality. It is just that people are constantly confusing the great Ming Wall (16th century AD) with earlier Chinese precursors which were ordinarily earth and reed rampart affairs with rare sections of dry stone wall in between.
[edit] The Dog
The picture of Hadrian's wall is in need of a picture without a dog on it. Perhaps there is some other way to show scale that is more encyclopedic? 70.177.68.209 23:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Map?
Someone, above, mentions a map.
Please, map, please.
hopiakuta ; [[ <nowiki> </nowiki> { [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] } ;]] 05:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, please,...
It should be a map for those of us who have never visited Europe; therefore, it should encompass the entire island.
Thank You.
hopiakuta ; [[ <nowiki> </nowiki> { [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] } ;]] 05:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
It should include Carvoran, Vindolanda.
hopiakuta ; [[ <nowiki> </nowiki> { [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] } ;]] 05:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think the map needs to have at least Gask Ridge added to it for comparison too - PocklingtonDan 10:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
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